Homemade Dough Conditioner

[buceriasdon]

Wow Norma, A real person with a company interested in a small business, good for them! That's admirable.
Don

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for the update. You got a better response than I would have anticipated. It will be interesting to see what Caravan sends you.

Peter

Wow Norma, A real person with a company interested in a small business, good for them! That's admirable.
Don

Peter and Don,

I was also surprised that such a big business like Caravan would even bother with me.  It seems like Edna is such a down to earth person and by the way she talked she would help me with whatever I wanted to try with pizza dough.  Maybe because she owned a small business herself at one time, that is why she would also help someone like me. 

I really liked how she told me about the people that were successful that started small.

Norma

[TXCraig1]

Edna told me of some great success stories of people that even started making products out of their garages and now are big companies. 

Jimmy John's Sandwiches is exactly that story.

CL

[norma427]

Jimmy John's Sandwiches is exactly that story.

CL

Craig,

I never heard of Jimmy John's Sandwiches.  What is that story, if you don't mind telling me?

Norma

[Ronzo]

Jimmy John's Sandwiches is exactly that story.

CL

Jimmy John's makes some pretty good subs for a chain.

Norma, check these sites out for some details on Jimmy John's.
http://www.jimmyjohns.com/company/history.aspx - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_John%27s - http://www.successmagazine.com/Success-Stories-Jimmy-John-Liautaud/PARAMS/article/610/channel/20

[norma427]

Ron,

Thanks so much for the links about Jimmy John Liautaud and his success story.   I find it amazing there are many success stories such as Jimmy John’s, just by people trying and not giving up, you never know where life may lead anyone.  I admire Jimmy John’s.  I also really love subs!  

I think it is a little late in life for me to succeed like Jimmy John’s did, but I still like to experiment.  I guess to me playing with dough is some kind of therapy.  I look forward each day to learning more about pizza dough and what all goes into it.  At least pizza dough is intriguing.

I don’t know where any of these experiments I plan on doing with my own blends or with ingredients that Edna is so kind to offer to me to experiment with, will lead me or others,  but hopefully what is learned from using different blends or enzymes will also help other members to be able to understand how different ingredients might work in pizza dough.

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I think for this coming Tuesday I am going to try the blend at 10% as I said I would, but might also try something like the Land O’ Lakes Super Heat All Dairy Blend Dry Milk which Dutch Valley carries.  Since I do have the high heat dairy whey, high heat non-fat dried milk powder, and the Sweet Cream Buttermilk powder I posted about before, do you have any idea of how much of each of these products I should put in the blend?  In the nutrition facts for the Land O’ Lakes Super Heat All Dairy Blend Dry Milk http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/images/catimages/272078.pdf it lists the ingredients as whey solids, skim milk solids, and buttermilk solids.  The sweet cream buttermilk powder I have at home just lists the ingredient of sweet cream buttermilk.  I had bought the sweet cream buttermilk powder in bulk at our local Country Store awhile ago. I might put the All Dairy Blend in the dough at 10% of the formula too, if I can figure out how much of each ingredient to try.  Maybe I could even put equal amounts in the blend, but I am not sure.

I also wonder since Steve and I know how a regular Lehmann dough tastes and how it bakes in the deck oven, if I should only do two blends doughs.  I would think Steve and I would know it the blend doughs are different, without making another regular Lehmann dough.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The Nutrition Facts for the Land O' Lakes Dairy Blend are not sufficient for me to be able to tell how much of the three milk products to use. However, I think that it is safe to say that the order by weight (and baker's percents) of the dairy blend ingredients is whey, dry milk powder and buttermilk powder. So, if you were to use 10% of the total flour weight, you might use 5% whey, 3% dry milk powder and 2% buttermilk powder. You can use any combination of amounts so long as the ingredients are in the right pecking order and their weights add up to 10% (or any other percent you decide to use).

Ideally, I think it is best to have a control dough but since you and Steve seem to have good "memory" on the basic Lehmann NY style pizza, from the standpoint of color, texture and taste, I don't see any need for you to make a Lehmann "control" dough for the next experiment. But, at some point, especially is you try something rather dramatic, you might reintroduce the Lehmann control dough.

I have mentioned this before but Pizza Hut several years ago used a dairy blend for their pan dough with the same three ingredients and in the same pecking order: http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The Nutrition Facts for the Land O' Lakes Dairy Blend are not sufficient for me to be able to tell how much of the three milk products to use. However, I think that it is safe to say that the order by weight (and baker's percents) of the dairy blend ingredients is whey, dry milk powder and buttermilk powder. So, if you were to use 10% of the total flour weight, you might use 5% whey, 3% dry milk powder and 2% buttermilk powder. You can use any combination of amounts so long as the ingredients are in the right pecking order and their weights add up to 10% (or any other percent you decide to use).

Ideally, I think it is best to have a control dough but since you and Steve seem to have good "memory" on the basic Lehmann NY style pizza, from the standpoint of color, texture and taste, I don't see any need for you to make a Lehmann "control" dough for the next experiment. But, at some point, especially is you try something rather dramatic, you might reintroduce the Lehmann control dough.

I have mentioned this before but Pizza Hut several years ago used a dairy blend for their pan dough with the same three ingredients and in the same pecking order: http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise on how much dairy whey, dry milk powder and buttermilk powder I should try in the dairy blend.  

I know it is always better to have a “control” Lehmann dough for experiments, but both Steve and I are very familiar with how the regular Lehmann dough bakes and tastes in my deck oven.  I can understand if I try something dramatic I will need to make another “control” Lehmann dough.  I told Steve I am going to give him some of the blend to try at his home also to see if he can notice any difference when he makes his Lehmann doughs.  I will also give him some of the dairy blend to try in his Lehman dough. If Steve decides to try any of the blends in his Lehmann dough in his home oven, it will be interesting to see what happens.

I didn’t see where you mentioned here on the forum what the ingredients were for the Pizza Hut pan pizza.  It is interesting they did use the same three ingredients, in the same pecking order.  I wonder if their pizza were better then.  

I don’t know if you are anyone is interested in reading this patent application, but it tells about using Super Heat Dairy Blend, from Land O' Lakes.  In this patent it says, this product balances out the overall flavor profile, provides a dairy flavor, aids in browning and aids in proper pH of the system. http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Refrigerated-yeast-raised-pizza-dough/WO1997042826.html   I also find it interesting in this patent application, for refrigerated pizza dough, that the finished dough temperature is supposed to be about 64 degrees F in bulk, before dividing.  I think in this patent application it says that the Dairy Blend can be added up to 10% of the flour, if I read right.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

In this patent it says, this product balances out the overall flavor profile, provides a dairy flavor, aids in browning and aids in proper pH of the system.

Norma,

I thought that the above language sounded familiar. See, for example, Reply 64 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6674.msg58943/topicseen.html#msg58943. You might also find Tom Lehmann's post on using buttermilk in pizza dough of interest.

I read the patent you referenced but did not find the 10% figure that you mentioned for the dairy blend. There is reference to the use of the fatty acid ester to prevent more than 20% and preferably 10% degradation of the rheology characteristics of the dough, but I don't know if that is where you found the 10% figure. There was also reference to 0.09-0.11% figures if that is what you were looking at but that range is for the fatty acid ester. On this point, if you look at the examples at the end of the patent, you will see that the amount of the dairy blend calculates out to about 1.76% of the weight of the base mix. The base mix includes flour, a fatty acid ester and other possible ingredients such as salt, sugar, fats, etc. So, that would suggest that the use of the dairy blend is perhaps more when compared with only the weight of the flour in the base mix but not 10%. The low usage of the dairy blend seems to make sense and also to be in the ballpark when you look at the ingredients list for the Pizza Hut pan dough in the Pizza Hut document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. You couldn't have the dairy blend at 10% since that would mean that the salt and fructose are used at greater than 10%, which, of course, cannot be the case.

The low finished dough temperature is described as needed in order to extend the useful window of the dough to about seven days under refrigeration.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I thought that the above language sounded familiar. See, for example, Reply 64 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6674.msg58943/topicseen.html#msg58943. You might also find Tom Lehmann's post on using buttermilk in pizza dough of interest.

I read the patent you referenced but did not find the 10% figure that you mentioned for the dairy blend. There is reference to the use of the fatty acid ester to prevent more than 20% and preferably 10% degradation of the rheology characteristics of the dough, but I don't know if that is where you found the 10% figure. There was also reference to 0.09-0.11% figures if that is what you were looking at but that range is for the fatty acid ester. On this point, if you look at the examples at the end of the patent, you will see that the amount of the dairy blend calculates out to about 1.76% of the weight of the base mix. The base mix includes flour, a fatty acid ester and other possible ingredients such as salt, sugar, fats, etc. So, that would suggest that the use of the dairy blend is even less from a baker's percent standpoint when compared with only the weight of the flour in the base mix. The low usage of the dairy blend seems to make sense and also to be in the ballpark when you look at the ingredients list for the Pizza Hut pan dough in the Pizza Hut document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. You couldn't have the dairy blend at 10% since that would mean that the salt and fructose are used at greater than 10%, which, of course, cannot be the case.

The low finished dough temperature is described as needed in order to extend the useful window of the dough to about seven days under refrigeration.

Peter

Peter,

I did find the link you referenced and also the link to Tom Lehmann post on buttermilk in dough interesting. I don’t know how you remember all the posts you have done, and can reference them so quickly.  I guess now I should only try 5% of the dairy blend in the Lehmann dough.  Is that what you would suggest?  I would think that using 10% dairy blend in the Lehmann dough would make the crust burn. 

I think I messed up in reading over that whole patent application.  I didn’t know what a fatty acid ester was and then fouled up, reading the rest of the article.  I didn’t read the part about the dough being possibly useful after seven days of refrigeration.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I'm not so sure that the 10% figure wouldn't work although I can't say for sure since I have never used milk products at the 10% level. The lactose in the whey should give more crust coloration (with little sweetness) but I think it might be more even than if you used a fair amount of sugar in the dough instead where the combination of caramelization and Maillard reactions might be fairly extensive. The nonfat dry milk powder and the buttermilk powder would be used at reduced levels and, as a result, may therefore not pose problems. If worse comes to worse, you can always slip a pizza screen under the pizza if the bottom bakes up too fast.

I might add that I once tried to make a clone of the PH pan dough in the document I referenced and where I used a dairy blend. However, the amount of the dairy blend, which I put together as you apparently plan to do, was on the low side because I was trying to keep it in the right place in the pecking order. Also, I was using a fair amount of oil in the pan, which had a much more pronounced effect on final bottom crust coloration that the dairy blend. Alas, I was not happy with the results of the pizza overall so I didn't pursue the PH clone pan dough further. Having conducted so many reverse engineering/cloning projects since that time, I think I might be able to do a more competent job today. The downside is that the PH pan dough is now extinct, so there is little information left on that dough since PH went to frozen dough with an entirely different formulation reflecting the frozen nature of the dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I'm not so sure that the 10% figure wouldn't work although I can't say for sure since I have never used milk products at the 10% level. The lactose in the whey should give more crust coloration (with little sweetness) but I think it might be more even than if you used a fair amount of sugar in the dough instead where the combination of caramelization and Maillard reactions might be fairly extensive. The nonfat dry milk powder and the buttermilk powder would be used at reduced levels and, as a result, may therefore not pose problems. If worse comes to worse, you can always slip a pizza screen under the pizza if the bottom bakes up too fast.

I might add that I once tried to make a clone of the PH pan dough in the document I referenced and where I used a dairy blend. However, the amount of the dairy blend, which I put together as you apparently plan to do, was on the low side because I was trying to keep it in the right place in the pecking order. Also, I was using a fair amount of oil in the pan, which had a much more pronounced effect on final bottom crust coloration that the dairy blend. Alas, I was not happy with the results of the pizza overall so I didn't pursue the PH clone pan dough further. Having conducted so many reverse engineering/cloning projects since that time, I think I might be able to do a more competent job today. The downside is that the PH pan dough is now extinct, so there is little information left on that dough since PH went to frozen dough with an entirely different formulation reflecting the frozen nature of the dough.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I will go with 10% dairy blend of the formula flour,  This wouldn’t be the first time I started at the high end.  I also understand I could put a pizza screen under the pizza if it wants to brown to quickly. 

Thanks for telling me why you kept dairy blend on the low side when you were making the PH pan dough.  I also think you could do a better job at reverse engineering PH pan pizzas today, if the PH pan dough wasn't extinct.  You have learn a lot along the way.

Norma

[norma427]

The Lehmann dough with the 10% blend I used before and the Lehmann dough with the 10% Dairy blend were mixed later last evening.  Both of these doughs were mixed the same, but they turned out much different in texture after mixing.  The final dough temperatures were almost the same, too.  The Lehmann dough ball with the blend I had used before felt about the same, as it was somewhat stiff.  The Lehmann dough ball with the dairy blend was very soft after it was mixed. 

Both of these dough balls are already cold fermenting differently. 

These are pictures top and bottom of both dough balls this morning.  The first two pictures are of the Lehmann dough ball with the blend I used before, by adding 10% blend to the formula flour, instead of the amount I used the last time.  The second two pictures are of the Dairy Blend added to the Lehmann dough at 10% of the formula flour.

Norma

[norma427]

This post is just to update what both blend dough balls look like this morning.  Both dough balls on the bottom are fermenting differently.  The blend Lehmann dough ball looks almost like the blend dough ball I made last week The dairy blend Lehmann dough ball looks like it is fermenting slower and with different fermentation bubbles.

First set of pictures are the blend Lehmann dough ball and the second set of pictures are the dairy blend Lehmann dough ball.

Norma

[norma427]

I received another email from Edna this morning.  This is what the email said.

Norma – Please give me a few days - - I have not forgotten you - - Thank you.

I didn’t email or talk to Edna anymore after my last update.  I will be interested to see what Edna has to say in her next email.  I did sent an email back to Edna this morning and told her I am in no hurry and know she is a busy woman.  I appreciate she is even willing to help me.

Norma

[Saturday Coffee]

I found this in one of the copycat recipe books someone sent in an email.

[norma427]

I found this in one of the copycat recipe books someone sent in an email.

Saturday Coffee,

Thanks so much for posting the Dough Enhancer you found.   Did you ever try that in dough?  I might try that recipe some time in the Lehmann dough to see what happens. I did hear ginger is good for dough.  I did buy some, but didn’t try it yet. 

Norma

[norma427]

The two pizzas were made today with the two different blends.  The Lehmann dough with the added 10% blend (this was the blend I had used in a lower percent before) was the winner again today.  The pizza made with the dairy blend was also good, but didn’t get the oven spring that the other blend dough did.  Also the dairy blend wasn’t as moist in the rim.  Steve and I both liked the 10% added blend  better in the taste of the crust.  We both thought this was a very good pizza.  The crust was somewhat crispy and stayed that way, even after it cooled.  The dough ball did get softer after the cold ferment and warm-up. 

The diary blend Lehmann pizza crust did have somewhat of a dairy taste, something like using dairy whey in dough. The dairy blend dough was easier to open.   

The first set of pictures are the regular blend I was using before, but with the upped blend to 10% in the Lehmann dough.  The second set of pictures are the dairy blend pizza.  The last picture is both pizzas sitting side by side with the regular blend on the right and the dairy blend on the left.

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma