Homemade Dough Conditioner

[norma427]

The regular Lehmann dough with the added ginger to the blend pizza was made yesterday.  This was a 12" pizza.  I don’t know if it can be seen on the pictures, but there was some specks of something a different color (like a bright yellow), in different parts of the dough.  This dough was easy to open and it also had good oven spring.  In comparison to the two pizzas  made with the blends yesterday, this pizza had the best taste in the crust.  There was just something different about it that made it more complex. 

Pictures below

Norma 

[norma427]

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Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

It is interesting that you preferred the basic Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend with the ginger over the preferment Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend without the ginger. There are now so many moving parts to your pizzas in this thread, and especially so with the preferment Lehmann dough with dough enhancers, that it is difficult to know what is affecting what. However, generally the ginger is intended to affect the yeast more than anything else in the dough. Maybe it has other effects that have not been noted before. Apart from repeating the experiments to see if you get the same results, which is always a good idea in any comparative analysis, I think a logical next experiment would be to use the dough enhancer blend with the ginger with the preferment Lehmann dough to see if the dough is easier to open up and also if the finished crust tastes better with the ginger. If so, and if the results can be repeated on a consistent basis, then you might decide to use the ginger blend with your preferment Lehmann dough at market. Of course, there may be other reasons for sticking with your current preferment Lehmann dough, apart from taste.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

It is interesting that you preferred the basic Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend with the ginger over the preferment Lehmann crust using the dough enhancer blend without the ginger. There are now so many moving parts to your pizzas in this thread, and especially so with the preferment Lehmann dough with dough enhancers, that it is difficult to know what is affecting what. However, generally the ginger is intended to affect the yeast more than anything else in the dough. Maybe it has other effects that have not been noted before. Apart from repeating the experiments to see if you get the same results, which is always a good idea in any comparative analysis, I think a logical next experiment would be to use the dough enhancer blend with the ginger with the preferment Lehmann dough to see if the dough is easier to open up and also if the finished crust tastes better with the ginger. If so, and if the results can be repeated on a consistent basis, then you might decide to use the ginger blend with your preferment Lehmann dough at market. Of course, there may be other reasons for sticking with your current preferment Lehmann dough, apart from taste.

Peter

Peter,

In all the times I have tried any of these blends in the Lehmann dough in, I have seen the dough ball is stiff after the blend is mixed in.  After a few days the dough ball does become softer.  I don’t know what is going on in the dough, but something must be going on that makes the dough softer after a few days or at least two days, which is what I tried in the last experiment with the blend with ginger in the Lehmann dough. 

I think it would be a good idea to try the blend with the ginger in the preferment Lehmann dough, but think I would at least have to start the poolish on a Thursday and mix the final dough on Sunday to give a fair comparison, since the dough does seem to become softer at least over a two day period.  The final dough I used for the preferment Lehmann dough only had one day to cold ferment.

I don’t know if Steve will see what I have posted about the regular Lehmann dough with the blend of ginger added yesterday, but I think this was his favorite crust.  I don’t know what gave it a more complex taste, but it also tasted that way to me too.

Maybe I should also just add ginger to a regular Lehmann dough to see what happens.

Norma 

[norma427]

I decided this past weekend, I had so many other experiments going for tomorrow, that I would  only make one test dough ball with a dough enhancer for Tuesday.  I had posted I was going to use ginger for the dough enhancer, but decided yesterday I would add ginger and ascorbic acid to the Lehmann dough to see what happens.  I did add the same amounts of ginger and ascorbic acid that I had put into the blend before. The dough with the ginger and ascorbic acid was mixed yesterday.  This time the dough was really soft (softer than usual), and not stiff like when I had been putting a blend into the other Lehmann doughs I was testing.  The final dough temperature was 75.4 degrees F.

If anyone is following this thread, and doesn’t remember, I have been using Better for Bread flour in all these experiments when using a dough enhancer or blend.

Pictures of dough ball this morning with added ginger and ascorbic acid.

Norma

[norma427]

The 12" Lehmann pizza was made that had a blend of ginger and ascorbic acid added to the dough at market yesterday.  The taste of this crust was different than a regular Lehmann dough crust, but what interested Steve and me the most, was how the crust and rim were much crisper than a regular Lehmann dough crust.  Each bite had a nice crisp texture.  I am not sure whether it was the added ginger or added ascorbic acid that made the crust so crisp.  The bottom crust of this pizza also browned differently than my other pizzas have in my deck oven.  I never baked a Lehmann pizza that had such a crisp crust, unless it was another type of dough and was a thinner, lower hydration dough.  Another thing that interested Steve and me was the crumb was still moist, even with the crisp rim.

I also don’t know why the dough ball that seemed softer when mixed, became more stiff after the cold ferment.  This dough was left to warm-up for 2 hrs.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

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[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Was the Lehmann crust against which you compared the 12" pizza with the ginger and ascorbic acid also 12"?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Was the Lehmann crust against which you compared the 12" pizza with the ginger and ascorbic acid also 12"?

Peter

Peter,

No, the Lehmann crust I compared the ascorbic acid and ginger pizza to wasn’t a 12" Lehmann pizza.  I don’t think I ever made a 12" Lehmann dough pizza before this thread.  All the blends I have been using so far in these experiments have been 12" Lehmann pizzas, except for the one I did with a preferment Lehmann dough and that was a 16" pizza.  The only reason I am experimenting with 12" Lehmann pizzas in this thread is because I am using Better for Bread flour I didn’t want to use too much flour in these experiments.  

Would it make a much bigger difference if I had used the ascorbic acid and ginger in a bigger pizza?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

What I was wondering is if the bake times for a 12" pizza and a 16" pizza in your oven are different and, if so, how do you know when they reach the same final condition? For example, if the 12" pizza were baked proportionately longer than the 16" pizza, might not the rim be dryer and crispier? Also, if the sauce and cheese quantities are not proportionate, that might also have an effect on the bake times. I would think that the best comparison is to make two dough balls for two 12" pizzas, with one of the dough balls having the ascorbic acid and ginger, using the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas, and, if possible, baking them simultaneously in your deck oven and then pulling them at the same time. This would remove pizza size and related aspects as variables.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

What I was wondering is if the bake times for a 12" pizza and a 16" pizza in your oven are different and, if so, how do you know when they reach the same final condition? For example, if the 12" pizza were baked proportionately longer than the 16" pizza, might not the rim be dryer and crispier? Also, if the sauce and cheese quantities are not proportionate, that might also have an effect on the bake times. I would think that the best comparison is to make two dough balls for two 12" pizzas, with one of the dough balls having the ascorbic acid and ginger, using the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas, and, if possible, baking them simultaneously in your deck oven and then pulling them at the same time. This would remove pizza size and related aspects as variables.

Peter

Peter,

I don’t usually time bake times with any of my pizzas at market.  I just keep opening the door on the deck oven and rotating the pies or using a screen if I think the bottom is getting to dark.  My deck temperatures vary all over the place according to where the pies are placed.  I don’t understand why that is, but usually a smaller pie will be finished in about the same amount of time.  My deck oven doesn’t lose deck temperatures as fast as my home oven using a pizza stone.  I can let the door open for a much longer time, and the deck temperatures don’t fall much.  As can be seen in many pictures I have posted for reference to how the pies are baking, my deck oven does bake differently than my home oven.  I guess it is the mass of deck oven stones that helps, and also I can hear my gas turning on much quicker than my home oven would reheat the coil in my electric home oven.  If I would let my regular home oven door open as long as I do at market, my pizza stone would lose more heat.  I also guess, because there is less head room in my deck oven, than my home oven, that also helps to maintain the temperatures. 

I do have a timer at market and can make two Lehmann doughs next week, (one with ginger and
ascorbic acid and one without) to see what happens, but if I put them (with the same amount of cheese and sauce), almost simultaneously in the oven, I still am not sure if they will bake the same because of the different temperatures of my deck stone.  On the right side of my deck oven the temperature seem to be higher than the left side.  My top deck also is a lower in temperature.  I don’t know why that is either, because I think heat would rise and make the top deck hotter, but it doesn’t.  Maybe the bottom deck stays hotter because that is where the gas burner is.  The gas burner goes underneath the middle of the whole bottom of my bottom deck. 

I didn’t use a screen for this pizza and just wondered why the crust did get lighter in the bottom of the crust and was also crisper.  I hadn’t seen that before in my deck oven.  Usually I take a pie out of the oven when the cheese looks finished. 

If you still think what you posted would be a good test, I will do it next week.  I know you are always looking at variables.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The reason why I focused on the oven and pizza size is because I have never read anything that associated the use of ascorbic acid and ginger with the finished crust characteristics you described. What I have read--and I am sure you also have read--is that the ascorbic acid is supposed to create a more acidic environment for the yeast and the ginger is supposed to "kick start" the yeast. It also concerned me that just about all the articles I read about the ginger used the same or similar language, as though everyone was citing and quoting everyone else. When I see that, I get nervous. With a little bit more research, I found a cached post on a forum where a poster analyzed ginger from a chemical standpoint and was hard pressed to see how it helped a dough at all (other than giving a bit of pungent taste).

Getting back to your oven and doing another experiment, I think it should be possible to bake the two pizzas in succession, using the same oven real estate for the two pizzas, assuming that you let that space get back to the same temperature after baking the first pizza. With the pizzas being in close succession, I think that if you sample the crusts of both pizzas after they come out of the oven and cool down to be able to eat you should be able to detect any textural and flavor differences between the two pizza crusts. As previously discussed, you would want to use the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas.

I will leave to you to decide if you should run another experiment using the ascorbic acid and ginger. You might not give this experiment as high a priority as other experiments that you would like to conduct at market.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The reason why I focused on the oven and pizza size is because I have never read anything that associated the use of ascorbic acid and ginger with the finished crust characteristics you described. What I have read--and I am sure you also have read--is that the ascorbic acid is supposed to create a more acidic environment for the yeast and the ginger is supposed to "kick start" the yeast. It also concerned me that just about all the articles I read about the ginger used the same or similar language, as though everyone was citing and quoting everyone else. When I see that, I get nervous. With a little bit more research, I found a cached post on a forum where a poster analyzed ginger from a chemical standpoint and was hard pressed to see how it helped a dough at all (other than giving a bit of pungent taste).

Getting back to your oven and doing another experiment, I think it should be possible to bake the two pizzas in succession, using the same oven real estate for the two pizzas, assuming that you let that space get back to the same temperature after baking the first pizza. With the pizzas being in close succession, I think that if you sample the crusts of both pizzas after they come out of the oven and cool down to be able to eat you should be able to detect any textural and flavor differences between the two pizza crusts. As previously discussed, you would want to use the same weights of sauce and cheese on both pizzas.

I will leave to you to decide if you should run another experiment using the ascorbic acid and ginger. You might not give this experiment as high a priority as other experiments that you would like to conduct at market.

Peter

Peter or anyone that is interested,

So far on this thread these are where I made regular 12" Lehmann dough pizzas at Reply 74 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg135071.html#msg135071 and next posts and at Reply 90 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg135906.html#msg135906 and following posts.  I think after those posts is were where I stopped making a test regular 12" Lehmann doughs.  I haven’t changed my temperatures of my deck oven since starting this thread.
Those pizzas didn’t have the crispness that the pizza I made on Tuesday had.

The only thing I did different in this recent blend is upped the ginger to 3 pinch measuring spoons and only used 1 pinch of ascorbic acid in the blend.  I just wanted to see what adding more ginger to the blend would do.  I said to Steve that the crust almost tasted like a sourdough curst, but Steve didn’t agree with me on that, but he did agree with me on the crispness.

I did post on where I had purchased smaller measuring spoons at Reply 59 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg134626.html#msg134626

I like you. didn’t read anything before that suggested that ginger would change the crust crispness, like it did in my experiment.  I don’t know if it might have been my deck oven or what happened.

I think this last experiment warrants another experiment with the blend I used and also a regular Lehmann dough pizza.  It just made Steve and I wonder why the rim and bottom of the crust was so crisp and didn’t seem to become really brown.

I think I still have a leftover slice in my refrigerator I brought home from market, to reheat.  I also think I brought home a slice of the Bisquick cheese-garlic pizza and a Lehmann dough manteca slice.  I will look and see if I brought a slice of all of them home.  I shouldn’t be eating all this pizza, but at least my blood levels were better than last year, so I guess it will be okay.  

Norma

[norma427]

At least to me, this thread on the Fresh Loaf is interesting, even though there are no conclusions and seems like trying dough enhancers aren't popular, at least in bread.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18034/bread-dough-enhancer

Norma

[norma427]

For anyone that is interested, I don’t know how ascorbic acid, type or brand of flours, baking times, mixing times and protein content of flours are related, but in these tests it seems like the protein content, ash content, etc. and proofing times do matter when using ascorbic acid.  http://www.cazv.cz/2003/CJFS4_03/3-Hruskova-Novotna.pdf

To add to that mess, now also ginger was added, so I don’t know what the two combined ingredients of ascorbic acid and ginger will do or won’t do, especially since I don’t have all the equipment needed to do specialized tests with ascorbic acid and ginger.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

To add to that mess, now also ginger was added, so I don’t know what the two combined ingredients of ascorbic acid and ginger will do or won’t do, especially since I don’t have all the equipment needed to do specialized tests with ascorbic acid and ginger.

Norma,

Thank you for posting the links to the two articles. I always enjoy reading stuff like that. I'm sure that you noted that the Czech article was with respect to the effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour as opposed to ascorbic acid that is added to yeast.

I agree with you that the types of experiments that you have been conducting with the ascorbic acid and ginger are perhaps best left to a controlled laboratory setting. I personally would never trust, or draw conclusions from, the results of only a single experiment. I would have to conduct the identical experiment several times, along with controls, before I would attempt to draw conclusions and, even then, I would be relying on taste/texture memory, which is also suspect, at least in my case with my tastebuds. I believe that what you and I have read on the subject is based mostly on anecdotal evidence, mostly by home bakers. It is perhaps that anecdotal evidence that becomes gospel on the internet when that evidence become viral.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Thank you for posting the links to the two articles. I always enjoy reading stuff like that. I'm sure that you noted that the Czech article was with respect to the effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour as opposed to ascorbic acid that is added to yeast.

I agree with you that the types of experiments that you have been conducting with the ascorbic acid and ginger are perhaps best left to a controlled laboratory setting. I personally would never trust, or draw conclusions from, the results of only a single experiment. I would have to conduct the identical experiment several times, along with controls, before I would attempt to draw conclusions and, even then, I would be relying on taste/texture memory, which is also suspect, at least in my case with my tastebuds. I believe that what you and I have read on the subject is based mostly on anecdotal evidence, mostly by home bakers. It is perhaps that anecdotal evidence that becomes gospel on the internet when that evidence become viral.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did note that the ascorbic acid in the Czeh article was with respect of effects of ascorbic acid as added to flour.  I had also searched on what ascorbic acid really does in making dough and what I mostly read was like what scott r had posted at the beginning of this thread. The ascorbic acid was mostly to replace or act like using bromated flour. 

I wouldn’t ever think my test results are conclusive, even if I did a number of experiments, but find how the taste of the crust changes with each experiment interesting. I never really have controlled experiments, as can be seen in what I did so far.  Steve and I both can notice in each of these experiments so far on this thread, there is a different taste in the crust with each blend.  Whether they are because of different bake times, different proofing times, different room temperature proofing,  different amounts of cheese, sauce or other variables I don’t think we will ever know.  To do a really controlled experiment would take a lot of work with any of these blends.

I still will make two test doughs, one with ascorbic acid and ginger and one without to test next Tuesday.  At least it might satisfy my curiosity about why the crust was so crisp.

Norma