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Author Topic: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza  (Read 78486 times)

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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #180 on: October 06, 2014, 12:17:05 PM »
Dan,

Nice photos.  Good to see you are still in the game.  I made an RT clone this past weekend that came out great as always (no photos, though).

In your mention of the lack of oven spring, how much yeast did you use? 

I am wondering if the competition between your starter and the yeast might have had something to do with it.

Best regards,

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #181 on: October 06, 2014, 04:24:30 PM »
I used 3g ADY which is just under 0.7% total formulation. I also made the regular recipe with the same yeast, so I know the yeast was good. I could tell in the fridge that the "experimental" dough was not getting puffy or fermenting well. I think perhaps the acidity of the sourdough starter killed or inhibited them. It didn't seem THAT sour, then again I used 200g in the formulation, which I think is a pretty high amount? Another aspect of the sourdough culture I made is I don't know how well the yeast fared in it. I meant I could have just been culturing lactobacillus. It would increase in volume after feeding, but no so much that it was 3 or 4 times the volume. It would just about double. Anyway, the Red Hook ESB is really something special. I can use it to replace the water 100%, add yeast directly to it, and it still grows fantastic.


Offline Lydia

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #182 on: November 17, 2014, 04:40:46 PM »

DAN


your pies are looking SO good  :drool:



Wonder how Lydia is doing......she is a really nice gal.   :chef:


Hey ALL



I'm not dead "yet"...but man....the weather is kickin' my butt. I seriously wasn't prepared for ice storms in the south, let alone 3 day long tornado outbreaks!  :o  (BTW watching the radar during one of those is just like playing Atari Astroids but your joystick stopped workin' ...you just sit there and pray you don't get hit.  :-D ) In March and April I only had 2-3 no stress days a week while the weather flip-flopped between ice and tornados.


I'm starting to get the hang of it all though.  :-\


But other than that, I DO love it here. The people are great. It's a bit of a time warp for ingredients which is really cool. Red wax cheese, whole milk cultured buttermilk, pork jowel, real string beans, carnation "chocolate" malt, and "meat" OMG I can eat meat again.  ;D [size=78%]  [/size]


I never "EVER" want to eat nasty "california beef" ever again. Not by choice I was nearly vegetarian, now I'm scarfing down triple steak burgers. Its so liberating  :chef:


I miss CAL-mex and california style pizza and C&H sugar.


I'm trying..really trying to get back on the pizza boards. I miss it. I've got a lot or board reading to catch-up though.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #183 on: November 17, 2014, 11:11:14 PM »
Good to hear all is swell Lydia....pm me if you get desperate enough for me to send some C&H sugar your way.  :)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Lydia

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #184 on: November 19, 2014, 08:57:50 AM »
Good to hear all is swell Lydia....pm me if you get desperate enough for me to send some C&H sugar your way.  :)


Thanks   ;D ...sent a PM
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #185 on: November 19, 2014, 10:00:56 AM »
About the deactivated yeast, I came across something that said "cultured flour" was used in "clean label" breads as a preservative, if the wholesale bakery did not want to use calcium propionate and thus have to declare it on the label.


For current Shakeys...I'm going to agree with the direction your going here. Deactivated yeast has the wrong flavor and aroma....BUT autoysed yeast extract, if its the correct type will give off a parmesan-romano  type flavor and aroma. (other types will give off beef or chicken like flavors) I have no clue on how to obtain it other than through prepackaged mixes like Knorr Bullion.

But for Vintage Shakeys.....There was a time that I had "that flavor" and "that aroma". It was when I had "aging/old"  High gluten malted bread flour stored at extremely high temps around 85- 90 F in a sunroom during summer. So alot like storing flour in a commercial kitchen.
:chef:

Everyone kept asking me HOW I got "that flavor". :-[

I really think that looking into aging and/or high temperature fermenting of malted barely flour (not sourdough culture) is the "real key". Something to do with manipulating the enzymes in the Barley Flour.

I also recall that the flour behaved differently too. It was crispier in a dry crunchy way and had more "tug" to the bite than it had before the abuse.

------------------------------

A local old-school mom n pop place is using a flour with calcium propionate, and baking on deck ovens. Boy o boy, their crusts are as close to vintage Shakeys as I've had in decades.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Zing

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #186 on: December 05, 2014, 10:56:03 AM »
Lydia, that post of yours got me to thinking. As I mentioned in one of the Shakey's threads, the 2013 samples of Shakey's (brought back shortly after I wrote the paragraph you referenced above) did NOT have "That Smell".

Let me formulate my thoughts and then post entries to the major Shakey's threads in case some of the ex-employees remember how various types of dough abuse affected the taste of the final pies. As the chef-turned-cash and carry manager at a foodservice house once told me, "Even if you have the recipe, technique can make it taste different".

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #187 on: December 08, 2014, 02:29:15 PM »
Lydia, that post of yours got me to thinking. As I mentioned in one of the Shakey's threads, the 2013 samples of Shakey's (brought back shortly after I wrote the paragraph you referenced above) did NOT have "That Smell".

Let me formulate my thoughts and then post entries to the major Shakey's threads in case some of the ex-employees remember how various types of dough abuse affected the taste of the final pies. As the chef-turned-cash and carry manager at a foodservice house once told me, "Even if you have the recipe, technique can make it taste different".

Zing,

There are 2 possible reasons for that lack of smell (and I know of what you are talking about because I have eaten at the Shakey's in Anaheim twice). 
1) Change in the flour formulation.  I was informed in 2012 that Round Table and Shakey's had reformulated their doughs to meet California food regulations regarding fat content.
2) The use of conveyor ovens instead of deck ovens.  I noticed in Anaheim they use the conveyor ovens.  I have also been to the Shakey's in Oroville and they still use the old deck oven (at least they did in 2010 and 2012).  I found 'that smell' to be more noticeable at that location.

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline joelweb

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #188 on: January 13, 2019, 10:32:30 PM »
Hey DNA Dan. I'm assuming you are still around and am resurrecting this old thread to say thank you for all the time you've put into creating this malty laminated crust and sauce. While I know the Round Table recipe is the culmination of a lot of experimentation and research from several people, you put a lot of effort into the recipe to get it to the next level and Iím going to start there.

While Iím a newbie on the forum, I grew up in Oregon back in the 80s and 90s, and while I ate a little Round Table, my roots were tied to the original Pietro's recipe (the chain was founded in 1957) and all the other great laminated pizzas that could be found in Oregon.

I've been living in Montana for the past 15 years and am tired of the underwhelming pizza in this state and the complete lack of laminated pizzas here. I've decided it's time to take matters into my own hands and see if I can reproduce what I remember from my childhood.

I grew up baking a lot and Iíve read through this entire thread and the Round Table Pizza crust thread.

Also, with some deep searching online, I just found a working commercial dough sheeter for $250. Itís a bit dirty, but was a screaming deal and should be a difference maker.

I wonít have the sheeter in hand til March, but Iíve accumulated all the other equipment and plan to get started soon. Iíll check back when I get up and running.

One quick question, are you still making this pizza?

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #189 on: February 11, 2019, 01:02:31 AM »
I'm still in the game making pies. I just sent you a PM.

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Offline joelweb

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #190 on: March 27, 2019, 10:08:44 PM »
Update.

Pizza sheeter finally came into my possession last Friday. I bought it sight unseen on Facebook marketplace and was pleasantly surprised to find it in really good condition. It was a little dirty from sitting for a few years and there was a small amount of surface rust on the rollers that I needed to sand off, but it was overall in great shape. I cleaned it up, greased the bearings, oiled the chain, and I was sheeting dough. 

I made a couple pies and was very pleased with my first attempt. Crust was nice and light with some air pockets and the flavor was great. I'm currently using a kettlepizza barbecue insert I found on Craigslist and I need to mess around with it before I'll know if I like it. I know it isn't perfect, and I definitely don't have it mastered, but I'm not sure where I would stick a pizza oven at my house. I definitely need to experiment with the sheeter some more too. I tried to not overwork the crust, but also wonder if I could have rolled it a little more. I also think I could have made my crust a little thinner. Overall I think it was a solid and tasty first attempt. Night and day better than when I tried to make this recipe by hand with a rolling pin - that didn't work nearly as well.

I must say that the taste of the pizza reminded me of what I grew up eating in western Oregon. I think the sauce was pretty close, too.

I do need to focus on some better ingredients. I grew up loving Canadian bacon but I'm very dissatisfied with the stuff I can find in the stores around here in western Montana. I'd like to find a local deli that could slice it for me.

Thanks again for the recipe, Dan.


« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 08:58:52 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline joelweb

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #191 on: May 07, 2019, 10:19:39 PM »
Update. Iíve been working on my pizzas using a variant of DNA Danís Malty Laminated Beer Crust and have been making pies about every 10 days or so since the sheeter arrived in March. Definitely some learning involved, but my pizzas are getting there.

It took a while to figure out how to use the sheeter in a way that yielded consistent (and desired) results with good separation between layers. After several tries and some additional online reading, I realized that one of the most important aspects of layer separation is rubbing the outside of the pizza skin with flour before folding. I now do this religiously before folding the skin and running it through the sheeter during the final passes. It also takes a little practice to minimize the number of passes to avoid overworking the dough, while sheeting the skin out to the desired diameter and thickness.

Below are the ingredients Iíve been using. Iíve been mixing the water, sugar, and yeast and letting stand for 10 minutes. After measuring the dry ingredients, I combine with a whisk, then cut in the shortening. I add the liquid ingredients and then mix slightly with an electric mixer. I finish combining the dough by hand, but found that the mixer helps with consistency over simply hand kneading.

I bag, let sit on the counter for three hours, and then put in the fridge for two nights. I sheet the pizza skins in the morning (around 8am), refrigerate, and then bake at dinner time (6pm). I wasnít getting blistering with a three hour wait after sheeting, so I increased the time. Iím also using 240g of cheese with a 14Ē pie. Seems right.

I picked up a Kettle Pizza grille insert on Craigslist and have been using that to bake on my gas barbecue. Using an infrared thermometer, Iíve started baking when the stone surface reaches 550 degrees Fahrenheit. Baking time is just under seven minutes. Tonightís pizza was close to perfection, but I wish there was a little more snap to the crust. Iím using Nutiva vegetable shortening from the local natural food store as a Crisco alternative. Wondering if this is why it doesnít have quite as much crispiness as I desire. I also wonder if it is baking temperature and if lowering or increasing the surface temperature and adjusting the bake time appropriately would have a noticeable impact on crust texture. Appreciate feedback there.

Weight  Ingredient

157 g warm water
10 g Sugar
3 g  Active Dry Yeast (Fleischmannís)
75 g reduced beer. Bayern pilsner boiled in half then cooled
481 g All trumps flour
10 g Salt 
10 g Shortening  (Nutiva)
10 g Non-fat Bakers Dry Milk (King Arthur brand)

 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 10:21:52 PM by joelweb »

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #192 on: May 08, 2019, 02:07:20 PM »
Very well done! A few notes

1) Ditch the alternative shortening and use Manteca lard. I have found that even Crisco gives me a chewy crust. It just isn't the same shortening you could buy 10 years ago.

2) Lower the cooking temp to ~475 and cook the pies longer. Remember, the puffiniess from the lamination comes from trapped moisture in the layers. You need time to heat the middle of the dough up to steam in order for this effect to occur. My pies take about twice as long to cook. 12-15 minutes depending on toppings. I use parchment paper to prevent the bottom from browning too fast, then pull the paper about halfway through to finish off the bottom. I use this method because I put raw meats on my pies.

3) Ditch the mixer. All I do is incorporate the flour to about 90%, bag then DONE. After it sits in the bag for a little bit you'll notice the dough has more moisture to it. You can then finish kneading to incorporate more or just let it go. A scrappy looking dough will smooth out on the sheeter, and best of all it won't be overworked.

Funny you put that Bayern Pils in there! That's one of my local favorites. Everyone seems to do IPA because they don't have the talent and patience for a good pilsner.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 02:10:04 PM by DNA Dan »

Offline joelweb

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #193 on: May 08, 2019, 06:30:42 PM »
Thanks! I'll try the lard and lower the temperature. I actually have some bear lard that a friend gave me. I might have to try that too. ;D

I haven't noticed that running in the mixer for 20 or 30 seconds is resulting in any problems and I prefer the manageability of the dough. I'm thinking I'll make a couple pies side by side with both techniques to see how they compare.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #194 on: May 08, 2019, 09:27:10 PM »
It just depends how many passes with the sheeter you want to do. Some members just put together a ball of scraps for the bulk ferment. I guess the take home message is once it sits in the bag there's more moisture for hydrating the rest of the flour. I have seen this with All Trumps flour. 20-30 seconds just to incorporate the ingredients should be fine with a mixer on low. But seriously, check that dough after it's been bagged in the fridge for a few hours, it will be much wetter than when you put it in there. I have actually been dropping the hydration when using All Trumps.

Some shots of last week's pies. Straight up cheese, with all it's gooey, puffy goodness. The wife's fav, loaded with mushrooms galore. Then finally pepperoni and sausage, (no mushrooms because the wife won the bet :-\)  These were all made with All Trumps, 2 day ferment.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 09:35:13 PM by DNA Dan »

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Offline joelweb

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #195 on: May 09, 2019, 10:43:03 AM »
Dynamite. Are you still using a conveyor oven?

I feel like my baking setup is my biggest limitation right now. It's adequate, but not ideal. I'm resistant to buying an oven because of how much space it would consume, but I'm also attracted to the idea.

 

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #196 on: May 09, 2019, 11:53:31 AM »
I sold the conveyor oven to a brew pub in Chicago. It was great for making a lot of pies at once, but I find that I can get a better product using a stone. The issue I have is it's too slow when having pizza parties. I do have a "prosumer" stove made by BlueStar. It's a very heavy, all steel oven and it holds heat really well. So I bought a very thick stone, I think it's 1" or 3/4" that people use in a potter's kiln. As long as it's never been exposed to ceramic glaze, it's fine for cooking on. Do a search on the forum here and you should see a few threads about it. Also, I was able to get a 16x18" stone which fits the whole pie right out of the sheeter. I make 16" pies.

Get a good stone and give your oven plenty of time to heat up. Some folks also put a stone above their pizza really high in the oven to try and retain as much of the heat as possible if the oven has poor circulation.

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #197 on: May 10, 2019, 12:26:05 AM »
It just depends how many passes with the sheeter you want to do. Some members just put together a ball of scraps for the bulk ferment. I guess the take home message is once it sits in the bag there's more moisture for hydrating the rest of the flour. I have seen this with All Trumps flour. 20-30 seconds just to incorporate the ingredients should be fine with a mixer on low. But seriously, check that dough after it's been bagged in the fridge for a few hours, it will be much wetter than when you put it in there. I have actually been dropping the hydration when using All Trumps.

Some shots of last week's pies. Straight up cheese, with all it's gooey, puffy goodness. The wife's fav, loaded with mushrooms galore. Then finally pepperoni and sausage, (no mushrooms because the wife won the bet :-\)  These were all made with All Trumps, 2 day ferment.

That pepperoni and sausage pie looks fantastic! I gotta make some more of these laminated pies for sure  :drool:
the proof is in the pizza

Offline joelweb

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #198 on: May 13, 2019, 10:10:23 PM »
The latest. Same recipe as last time, except I used lard (bear lard), lowered the stone surface temperature to 485 degrees, and extended the baking time.

As you can see, the pie couldn't look any better underneath. Texture was an A- with a good amount of crispiness without seeming dried out. I didn't get as much separation between layers as other recent pies I've made, but it was still nice and light with great texture. I'll have to try again and see if it was simply a product of how I sheeted the pie, or if it was something else. 

At any rate, I'm pretty happy with where these are headed.

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Malty Laminated Beer Pizza
« Reply #199 on: May 14, 2019, 09:25:30 AM »
The latest. Same recipe as last time, except I used lard (bear lard), lowered the stone surface temperature to 485 degrees, and extended the baking time.

As you can see, the pie couldn't look any better underneath. Texture was an A- with a good amount of crispiness without seeming dried out. I didn't get as much separation between layers as other recent pies I've made, but it was still nice and light with great texture. I'll have to try again and see if it was simply a product of how I sheeted the pie, or if it was something else. 

At any rate, I'm pretty happy with where these are headed.

Very nice Joel, looks like a Round Table pizza!
the proof is in the pizza

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