Author Topic: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday (Read 106831 times)

Tman1 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 28, 2011, 11:40:48 AM »

My wife works in the test kitchens for Betty here in Minneapolis. I can tell you that you'd be amazed at how many times that was probably made. They start out by following the directions, then start playing with it to determine 'tolerance', then have people who've never seen the product before do it.. a sort of blind test.

Interesting to hear all that goes on in there (BK Kitchens). She loves the job! I might have to have here bring home some from the company store and give it a go. It is nice that it's so quick for those real emergencies.

norma427 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 28, 2011, 12:58:31 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on April 28, 2011, 09:33:49 AM

Norma,

If you look at the various commercial "instant" pizza dough mixes on the market, you will see that they are all pretty much alike, even down to the net weight (184 grams) of the pizza mix. Even the instructions are quite similar (including using 1/2 cup of hot water).

It wasn't until Bill (chickenparm) mentioned a prepared pizza mix that I got the Ding, ding, ding. Where I went wrong in guessing the Jiffy mix is that the Jiffy mix does not include any egg product.

With respect to the water temperature issue that you raised, I suspect that your water temperature was not high enough to kill the yeast. You would have to get to over 143 degrees F or so to do that. That is pretty hard to do when the yeast is buffered by all of the flour and other ingredients in the mix. You might also recall that yeast producers will often specify a water temperature of about 120-130 degrees F when the yeast (usually ADY) is added in advance to the flour and other dry ingredients. As a practical matter, and although I don't recommend it, I think you could get to around 135 degrees F without harming the yeast. I'd be curious to know what water temperature you actually used.

To Bill's point about using cold fermentation with a commercial instant dough mix, I tried that with the Jiffy pizza mix. You and Bill can read about my experiments along these lines at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4652.msg38349.html#msg38349.

Peter

Peter,

I never really looked at many “instant” pizza dough mixes before. I just thought they wouldn’t work well. The next time I go to the supermarket, I will check on what kind are available in my area and look at the instructions and ingredients. I had looked at the Pillsbury refrigerated containers of pizza dough and had thought about giving them a try.

I thought if I gave enough clues and you answered on this thread, you probably would have gotten the ding, ding, ding, sooner or later. Of course all the other guesses were very interesting too.

I really don’t know what water temperature I used, but my water at market can get so hot that I am unable to let my hand under it. I did run the hot water for a little. If I think about it, when I am at market I will take the water temperature with my digital thermometer. I even asked Steve if he thought the water we were using was too hot, but the directions just said not to use boiling water.

I did read about you using a cold ferment with the Jiffy pizza mix. I might try doing a cold ferment at some point in time with the Betty Crocker pizza mix like I purchased. It was cheap enough and quick enough to do another experiment with.

I had one regular customer taste a slice of the pizza made with the Betty Crocker pizza mix, and he said just while eating the pizza with the sauce and cheese, it almost couldn’t be told what kind of dough was used, but when he tasted the crust, he said my crust was much better. It is interesting how much a sauce and cheese can make a pizza taste, even if the crust isn’t the greatest.

Steve and I also had two women that work at Chi Chi’s stop at my stand on Tuesday and they were telling us how they made the dough, brownies and breadsticks. That also was an interesting discussion. They both said they loved their jobs at Chi Chi’s.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 28, 2011, 01:07:50 PM »

Quote from: Tman1 on April 28, 2011, 11:40:48 AM

My wife works in the test kitchens for Betty here in Minneapolis. I can tell you that you'd be amazed at how many times that was probably made. They start out by following the directions, then start playing with it to determine 'tolerance', then have people who've never seen the product before do it.. a sort of blind test.

Interesting to hear all that goes on in there (BK Kitchens). She loves the job! I might have to have here bring home some from the company store and give it a go. It is nice that it's so quick for those real emergencies.

Tman1,

It is interesting to hear your wife works at the test kitchens for Betty in Minneapolis.

I am sure other members and I would be amazed at what different people do to different mixes of Betty Crocker.

I can imagine what an interesting job that would be to work in a test kitchen, especially as big as Betty Crocker. It would be interesting if you bought some of the Betty Crocker pizza mixes I used and tried them or modified the pizza mix and see what kind of results you would get.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #23 on:** April 28, 2011, 01:41:36 PM »

Norma,

Compare these:

Betty Crocker
Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Dextrose, Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate, Baking Soda, Egg, Nonfat Milk, Soy Flour, Freshness Preserved by BHA

Chef Boyardee
Crust Mix: Enriched Wheat Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Riboflavin [Vitamin B2] and Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil Shortening (Contains One or More of the Following: Soybean Oil, Cottonseed Oil), Yeast, Dextrose, Leavening (Sodium Aluminum Phosphate and Sodium Bicarbonate) and Salt.

Jiffy
INGREDIENTS: WHEAT FLOUR, ANIMAL SHORTENING (CONTAINS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING: LARD, HYDROGENATED LARD, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED LARD), YEAST, contains less than 2% of each of the following: WHEY, SALT, DEXTROSE, LEAVENING (SODIUM ALUMINUM PHOSPHATE, BAKING SODA), SORBITAN MONOSTEARATE, NIACIN, REDUCED IRON, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID

Appian Way
Pizza Crust: Enriched Bleached Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Dextrose, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate), Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Shortening (Contains Soybean Oil), Active Dry Yeast With Sorbitan Monostearate, Emulsifier (Soy Lecithin), Salt, Nonfat Milk, Maltodextrin

Martha White
ENRICHED FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: DEXTROSE, BAKING POWDER (BAKING SODA, SODIUM ALUMINUM PHOSPHATE), DRY YEAST, SALT, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED SOYBEAN OIL, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, CALCIUM SULFATE, PROPYLENE GLYCOL MONOESTERS, MONO AND DIGLYCERIDES, POLYSORBATE 60, L-CYSTEINE HYDROCHLORIDE, TBHQ AND CITRIC ACID (ANTIOXIDANTS).

Kroger
Ingredients: Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Dextrose, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate), Whey, Soybean Oil, Salt, Active Dry Yeast with Sorbitan Monostearate, L-Cysteine Monohydrochloride

Walmart Great Value
Enriched Bleached Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Soybean Oil, Dextrose, Leavening (Sodium Almuminum Phosphate, Baking Soda), Active Dry Yeast With Sorbitan Monostearate, Salt, Calcium Carbonate

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 28, 2011, 04:39:56 PM »

Peter,

Thanks for posting all the different ingredients for the kinds of pizza mixes you found. I see most of them have about the same ingredients. I see the Jiffy pizza mix has lard (or different types of lard) as one of the ingredients. I would be curious to hear if you had to pick one of the pizza mixes from your above list, which one you would pick, to make the best pizza, by just looking at the ingredients.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #25 on:** April 28, 2011, 05:37:10 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 04:39:56 PM

I would be curious to hear if you had to pick one of the pizza mixes from your above list, which one you would pick, to make the best pizza, by just looking at the ingredients.

Norma,

Here is another pizza crust mix that I missed:

Eagle Mills
Enriched Bleached Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folate), Sugar, Canola or Soybean Oil, Salt, Mono-Diglycerides, Isolated Soy Protein, Whey. Yeast Packet Ingredient: Active Dried Yeast.

I actually thought about the question you raised as I was composing my last reply. I would say that it would be a toss-up between the Betty Crocker mix and the Chef Boyardee mix. I like the fact that the Betty Crocker mix has items like egg, nonfat milk and soy flour, all of which are nutritional items even though they are used in only small quantities. The negative for the Betty Crocker mix for me is the high placement of dextrose in the list of ingredients. Whether that would show up as excessive sweetness on my palate is something I would have to test by trying out the mix. The Chef Boyardee mix moves the dextrose farther down the list and salt is at the bottom of the list. Whether the latter results in a bland tasting crust is something that would have to be tested through eating. Some of the pizza mixes come in kits with sauce and cheese, so one has to take into account the amounts of salt, sugar/corn syrup, etc., that those parts of the pizza contain. I have set forth below the sauce and cheese combinations I found. Please try not to salivate over them. As between the two sauce/cheese combinations, I would pick the Appian Way combo. It is a cleaner combination in my opinion.

Chef Boyardee
Pizza Sauce: Tomato Puree (Water, Tomato Paste), Water, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Contains Less than 2% of: Soybean Oil, Salt, Modified Corn Starch, Spice, Medium Chain Triglycerides, Xanthan Gum, Flavorings, Partially Hydrogenated Cottonseed and Soybean Oils, and Enzyme Modified Butterfat and Oil. Grated Cheese: a Blend of Cheeses (Parmesan and Romano Made From Cow's Milk [Pasteurized Part-Skim Milk, Cultures, Salt, Enzymes]), Powdered Cellulose Added to Prevent Caking, Potassium Sorbate Added as a Preservative.

Appian Way
Pizza Sauce: Water, Tomato Paste, Modified Food Starch, Contains 2% Or Less Of Sugar, Salt, Cottonseed Oil, Spices, Romano Cheese (Pasteurized Part Skim Milk Cheese Culture, Salt, Enzymes, Calcium Chloride), Beet Powder, Citric Acid, Paprika, Olive Oil, Garlic Powder.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 28, 2011, 06:26:47 PM »

Peter,

Thanks for the pizza crust you missed. I never saw that one before at the supermarket, but maybe I wasn’t looking.

Maybe one of these days I will have to try out the Chef Boyardee mix to see how it compares with the Betty Crocker mix I tried. I didn’t notice any sweetness in the Betty Crocker mix crust, but since our palates are different, you might be able to taste some sweetness, if you decided to try the Betty Crocker mix out.

Don’t worry about me salivating over the sauce and cheese combination you found. It isn’t going to happen.

I like good tomato products or either a sauce like Les’s. I never tried any of the pizza mixes with the kits of sauce and cheese, but do find them interesting.

Norma

fazzari · « **Reply #27 on:** April 28, 2011, 07:48:31 PM »

You know, I just thought of an interesting tidbit (at least I think it is!!). When I attended Tom Lehmann's Pizza dough class years ago, he was telling us a story about how he got into trouble by deconstructing pizza doughs and then reconstructing them and giving out information. Anyway, the interesting story to me was the one about Papa Murphys. He deconstructed the dough and found it had baking soda/baking powder in addition to yeast, and he theorized the reason for adding this is to make the dough full proof in case an idiot customer forgets his pizza is sitting in a hot trunk for example. So even though the yeast might be killed, you have the baking powder baking soda as backup to make the dough rise. The unintended consequence is that these ingredients have a taste unlike normal dough. So Norma, I'm wondering in your case if you got any yeast action at all, or was the rise from the baking soda/powder??

John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #28 on:** April 28, 2011, 08:23:36 PM »

John,

You raise an interesting point. Many take-and-bake places use a product like WRISE from the Wright Group. That product is described in the document at http://www.thewrightgroup.net/images/stories/pdf/wrise/wrise_101595.pdf. As can be seen in that document, WRISE is made up of sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) and baking soda. It is fat encapsulated (a non-trans palm lipid) and kicks in only during baking. That way, if the consumer abuses the pizza by not preparing it as instructed, the WRISE product comes to the rescue. You will note that all but one of the pizza crust mixes described earlier contain sodium aluminum phosphate and baking soda. The difference is that that combination is not fat encapsulated, most likely because it is a dry mix that doesn't come to life until hot water is added. It is possible that the yeast is added for flavor (maybe to help masquerade the baking soda flavor) as much as for fermentation purposes. If there is enough yeast and hot water is used, it is possible to get some fermentation going in less than 15 minutes. But, without the sodium aluminum phosphate and baking soda, you would need a lot more yeast. I recall making doughs super fast, within about 15 minutes, using only yeast, and it took two packets of yeast to do it. I'm inclined to agree with you that most of the rise in the dough may be because of the sodium aluminum phosphate and the baking soda.

Peter

parallei · « **Reply #29 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:15:57 PM »

I'd have to vote for the Jiffy. After all, it's the only one with lard. Gotta taste the best

norma427 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:19:31 PM »

John,

I find it interesting that you did take classes with Tom Lehmann, and he. like Peter likes to deconstruct doughs and reconstruct them again.

I, like Peter really don’t know if the yeast could have been activated in such a short time with out the baking soda. I did do some experiments with baking soda only in combination with vinegar in an Ultra-thin crust with Peter’s advise. I posted in Reply 4 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11427.msg104307.html#msg104307 that baking soda in combination with an acidic agent can almost canceled the baking soda taste and does produce CO2 which might which might have been responsible for the rise in the crust of such a short mix and ferment time. That was a total different experiment than this, but I learned how baking soda and vinegar did work well together.

Since Sodium Aluminum Phosphate is listed before baking soda in the ingredients I could also see how that might help with some oven spring in the Betty Crocker mix.
http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm
Since Sodium Aluminum Phosphate is supposed to act quickly in the oven. It is also supposed to enhance baking reaction with the Sodium Bicarbonate present in the baking powder formulation. I think baking soda is just sodium bicarbonate without cream of tartar, but I could be wrong.

I find it interesting in pizza mixes how each ingredient works with each other.

Anyone can correct me if any of this information is wrong. I just try to learn.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:24:37 PM »

Quote from: parallei on April 28, 2011, 10:15:57 PM

I'd have to vote for the Jiffy. After all, it's the only one with lard. Gotta taste the best

Paul,

Good to hear you vote for Jiffy.

Did you ever try a Jiffy pizza mix? Stayed tuned, I am trying Manteca (lard) in a Lehmann dough for next week, in my other thread. Who knows what will happen with that. We’ll all see if the lard makes a difference in the taste of the Lehmann dough.

Norma

fazzari · « **Reply #32 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:35:19 PM »

Peter
Thanks a million...I forgot all about Wrise, and looking back in my notes, Tom recommended it highly.
John

chickenparm · « **Reply #33 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:39:21 PM »

Peter,

Thanks for posting that link about the cold rise test you did.The Pie you made came out looking fantastic.

I thought about buying a pizza kit or two and throwing the stuff into the the bread mixer and see what it can do with it,then cold rise overnight.Just for fun.Never know when something might amaze us or not!

widespreadpizza · « **Reply #34 on:** April 29, 2011, 12:15:55 AM »

mmmaluminummmnn Ronzo pointed out a while back how detectable this ingredient is in baked goods didn't he? It tasted like biscuits right? -marc

norma427 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 29, 2011, 05:22:38 PM »

Quote from: widespreadpizza on April 29, 2011, 12:15:55 AM

mmmaluminummmnn Ronzo pointed out a while back how detectable this ingredient is in baked goods didn't he? It tasted like biscuits right? -marc

Marc,

Were you directing the question to me about if the pizza crust tasted like biscuits?

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 29, 2011, 05:33:20 PM »

I used my NSF update international thermometer today to take the temperature of hot water put into the same ½ cup measuring cup I had used Tuesday, for the Betty Crocker pizza mix. The temperature of the water right after it was put into the stainless steel measuring cup was 132.4 degrees F. About a minute later it was 128.7 degrees F. Another two minutes later it was 123.1 degrees F. If I remember correctly we used the water right away. Today at market the ambinet room temperature at my stand was 68 degrees F and I even measured the stainless steel measuring cup with my IR gun to make sure that was the temperature of the measuring cup. Tuesday the ambient room temperatures were about 82 degrees F. I can see the temperature of the hot water could fall fairly fast after the test I did today. I can now see the temperature of the water at market isn’t high enough to kill the yeast.

Norma

Botch · « **Reply #37 on:** April 29, 2011, 10:35:55 PM »

Several folks on this forum have purchased Bosch mixers and ingredients from www.foryourkitchen.com, which is based here in Ogden. I attended their "Pizza" class a few months ago, and he mixed up a batch of pizza dough at the beginning of the class, immediately rolled out a couple skins, docked and dressed them, and threw them into the oven.
He didn't proof the yeast at all (IDY), but
He didn't let the dough rise either, at all!

At first, I got pretty interested as suddenly it looked like I could make pizza any night of the week, without any time expenditure.
But, the crust didn't taste very good at all; more like flour. I can dig out the recipe if anyone's interested, but it isn't very good. Sounds like the pre-packaged mixes in this thread are better.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #38 on:** April 29, 2011, 10:42:08 PM »

Botch,

I'd be interested in seeing the recipe.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 29, 2011, 10:53:10 PM »

Botch,

I also would be interested in seeing the recipe.

The crust on the pizza I made from the Betty Crocker mix was okay and didn’t taste like flour, but it didn’t taste like a crust that was homemade and the dough had fermented for a few days.

Norma