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Author Topic: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday  (Read 104123 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #280 on: June 10, 2011, 10:13:51 AM »
Norma,

You might recall when we conducted searches, much like Craig did, the products that came up for campers, survivalists and emergency applications all contained more than just partially-hydrogenated oils, such as corn syrup solids, mono-and diglycerides, etc. By contrast, the Abitec products, while lacking the other ingredients, seemed to be fully hydrogenated oils. What I was hoping that you could find are the oils that are only partially-hydrogenated, without anything else. I believe that it is such products that General Mills uses in its premixes. My recollection is that you found The Food Source website, and that we discussed same, but I don't recall whether you were able to get samples from them.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #281 on: June 10, 2011, 11:30:06 AM »
Norma,

You might recall when we conducted searches, much like Craig did, the products that came up for campers, survivalists and emergency applications all contained more than just partially-hydrogenated oils, such as corn syrup solids, mono-and diglycerides, etc. By contrast, the Abitec products, while lacking the other ingredients, seemed to be fully hydrogenated oils. What I was hoping that you could find are the oils that are only partially-hydrogenated, without anything else. I believe that it is such products that General Mills uses in its premixes. My recollection is that you found The Food Source website, and that we discussed same, but I don't recall whether you were able to get samples from them.

Peter

Peter,

I do remember when we conducted searches, like Craig did, that the products for campers, etc and did have other ingredients added.  I did ask for samples on the Food Source website, but didn’t get any answer.  I did ask for samples again last evening, but think I should call them to speak to customer service.  They might be able to help me more, if I specially tell them what kind of application I want to try for a pizza crust mix.  I will ask them which product might be partially-hydrogenated.

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #282 on: June 10, 2011, 11:51:52 AM »
Pete, maybe I'm misreading what you wrote in your last post above. I hope I'm not telling you something you already know.

Typically, the fat content of spray-dried shortening is in the 70-75% range - meaning 25-30% is something else (a carrier). I believe that only recently has there been methods to go much higher than 75%, see: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la103447n  Spray-dried shortening powders are always partially hydrogenated shortenings which are micro-encapsulated in a water-soluble material. They add a carrier such as skim milk, corn-syrup solids, sodium caseninate, and mono and diglycerides and then spray-dry the emulsion.

If the Abitec products were 100% fat, it would make sense that they were fully hydrogenated, however they were probably not "spray-dried." Hard fats can be powdered with other methods such as spray chilling and grinding - neither requires a carrier. I think it would be very uncommon for such a product to be used as a food ingridient.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #283 on: June 10, 2011, 12:15:41 PM »
Craig,

Thanks for your additional research.  :) I don’t understand what the differences are, but since you mentioned the Food Source website again, I did call them and spoke to a customer service person.  I told him I would like to know more about their partially- hydrogenated shortenings and what might be the best product for the application I am trying for a pizza crust mix.  He is going to email  me the specs of what he thinks would be the best product to try.

Will wait to see what Peter understands.

Norma

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #284 on: June 10, 2011, 12:57:45 PM »
Craig,

Thank for helping educate me on this subject. I appreciate it.

Like Norma, I have been trying to learn more about the partial hydrogenation of oils like soybean and/or cottonseed oil. The starting point was the General Mills ingredients lists for their premixes that Norma has been experimenting with. The only ingredients listed for the hydrogenated fats in those premixes are partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oils. I had earlier seen the ingredients list for the Godfather's original crust at http://vegan.fm/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ingredient-Statement.pdf, which shows other ingredients for the spray dried shortening and, from that, concluded that GM was using only partially-hydrogenated oils in their mixes (otherwise they might have been required to list the other ingredients just as Godfather's Pizza does). I also assumed that such a product would be very inexpensive. Maybe Norma will get further clarification from The Food Source on what type of product GM might actually be using.

I might also refer you to the Weisenberger thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903 where it is noted that the Weisenberger Mill also uses what Norma and I learned from Weisenberger itself is a spray dried shortening. Maybe the Non Fat Dried Milk is the carrier for the oil. From what Norma learned just recently, the sugar in the ingredients list is actually sugar (sucrose), not corn syrup or dextrose.

Peter

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #285 on: June 10, 2011, 01:00:32 PM »
Adam at The Food Source sent me a pdf.document for a shortening powder he thinks might work in a pizza crust mix.  I will post about the rest of the pdf. document later, but the ingredients declaration are: partially hydrogenated soybean oil, corn syrup solids, sodium caseinate, and mono and diglycerides.

I don’t know whether to ask for samples of this product or not.

Norma

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #286 on: June 10, 2011, 01:24:22 PM »
Adam at The Food Source sent me a pdf.document for a shortening powder he thinks might work in a pizza crust mix.  I will post about the rest of the pdf. document later, but the ingredients declaration are: partially hydrogenated soybean oil, corn syrup solids, sodium caseinate, and mono and diglycerides.

I don’t know whether to ask for samples of this product or not.

Norma

I think that is typical for a powdered shortening with fat in the mid-70% range.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #287 on: June 10, 2011, 01:52:41 PM »
I think that is typical for a powdered shortening with fat in the mid-70% range.

CL

Craig,

Thanks so much for telling me you think that the powdered shortening is typical, with fat in the mid-70% range.  :) I will see if Adam will send me a samples or samples to try.

Norma

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #288 on: June 10, 2011, 02:43:00 PM »
The starting point was the General Mills ingredients lists for their premixes that Norma has been experimenting with. The only ingredients listed for the hydrogenated fats in those premixes are partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oils. I had earlier seen the ingredients list for the Godfather's original crust at http://vegan.fm/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ingredient-Statement.pdf, which shows other ingredients for the spray dried shortening and, from that, concluded that GM was using only partially-hydrogenated oils in their mixes (otherwise they might have been required to list the other ingredients just as Godfather's Pizza does).

Notice the GM product lists “nonfat milk.” Not non-fat dry milk. I would think that has to be a carrier for the fat as there is certainly no wet milk in the mix. You can declare the sub ingredients of a food that is an ingredient in another food either way. Parenthetically as Godfathers does or in order of predominance by weight as it appears GM does.

Quote
I might also refer you to the Weisenberger thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903 where it is noted that the Weisenberger Mill also uses what Norma and I learned from Weisenberger itself is a spray dried shortening. Maybe the Non Fat Dried Milk is the carrier for the oil.

I think it is almost a certainty that the non-fat milk is there as a carrier. It would be rehydrated, added to the shortening, homogenized, and then spray-dried. Remember, if added water is subsequently removed during processing, it does not have to be listed on the ingredient statement.

I believe the FDA allows the use of the common phrase “vegetable shortening” to mean hydrogenated vegetable oil (you would still need to identify the type of oil). If it’s soybean oil as indicated in the Weisenberger declaration, it has to be partially hydrogenated for it to be solid at room temperature a.k.a. “shortening.” I think some companies choose to use “partially hydrogenated [fill in the blank] oil” to get the word “partially” into the declaration as it has been spun to have at least some measure of positive connotation. 

Quote
From what Norma learned just recently, the sugar in the ingredients list is actually sugar (sucrose), not corn syrup or dextrose. 

It has to be sucrose if it’s listed as “sugar.” Also, the FDA requires that the common name be used rather than a scientific name. It can’t be listed as sucrose. Likewise, dextrose is listed as dextrose because it does not have a common name (and corn syrup is listed as corn syrup – despite hard efforts of the corn folks to change it to corn sugar). Not related, but I could tell you stories about problems dextrose caused me developing a new bacon some years ago. It differs from sucrose in meaningful ways other than sweetness.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #289 on: June 13, 2011, 06:51:09 AM »
Notice the GM product lists “nonfat milk.” Not non-fat dry milk. I would think that has to be a carrier for the fat as there is certainly no wet milk in the mix. You can declare the sub ingredients of a food that is an ingredient in another food either way. Parenthetically as Godfathers does or in order of predominance by weight as it appears GM does.

I think it is almost a certainty that the non-fat milk is there as a carrier. It would be rehydrated, added to the shortening, homogenized, and then spray-dried. Remember, if added water is subsequently removed during processing, it does not have to be listed on the ingredient statement.

I believe the FDA allows the use of the common phrase “vegetable shortening” to mean hydrogenated vegetable oil (you would still need to identify the type of oil). If it’s soybean oil as indicated in the Weisenberger declaration, it has to be partially hydrogenated for it to be solid at room temperature a.k.a. “shortening.” I think some companies choose to use “partially hydrogenated [fill in the blank] oil” to get the word “partially” into the declaration as it has been spun to have at least some measure of positive connotation. 

It has to be sucrose if it’s listed as “sugar.” Also, the FDA requires that the common name be used rather than a scientific name. It can’t be listed as sucrose. Likewise, dextrose is listed as dextrose because it does not have a common name (and corn syrup is listed as corn syrup – despite hard efforts of the corn folks to change it to corn sugar). Not related, but I could tell you stories about problems dextrose caused me developing a new bacon some years ago. It differs from sucrose in meaningful ways other than sweetness.

CL


Craig,

Thanks for your help in understanding how ingredients can be listed.  :) It makes me wonder about your stories about how dextrose caused you problems in developing a new bacon some years ago.  How do you think the dextrose tasted in comparison to regular sugar?  To me it really had a powerful sweet factor, even if only a pinch was tasted.

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #290 on: June 13, 2011, 06:52:58 AM »
I had posted I would post the rested of the pdf. document from the Food Source, Inc. sent to me from Adam.  I didn’t get a return email that I would get a sample of this shortening powder, but thought I would post the rest of the document.

Product: Shortening Powder
Item Number: 1001420
Kosher Status: Yes, Orthodox Union
Country of Origin: Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, USA; Corn Syrup Solids, USA; Sodium Caseinate, USA, Ireland, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, France, Ukraine, Mono and Diglycerides, USA.

Reviewed: February, 2011

Ingredient Declaration:

Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Corn Syrup Solids, Sodium Caseinate, and Mono and Diglycerides.

Specifications:
Color: White to Light Cream
Flavor: Bland, Slightly Sweet
Odor: Bland, Slightly Sweet
Scorched Particle: ADPI (B) Pad or Better
Moisture: 2.0%   maximum
Fat:   73.0+/-2.0%
Granulation: 100% though USS #14 Seive
Standard Plate Count 10,000 /g maximum
Yeast and Mold <10/<10 /G
Coliform: <10 /g
Salmonella (by test) Negative
E. Coli/g <10

Packaging:
50 lb. Multi-Wall bag with 2 mil FDA approved poly liner

Storage:
Product stored at ambient temperature not to exceed 75 degrees F and <70% relative humidity

Shelf Life: Minimum of one year when stored as recommended.

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #291 on: June 13, 2011, 11:52:51 AM »
The differences between sucrose vs. dextrose that caused me so many headaches had mostly to do with the very different browning/burning characteristics of the two at the high temperatures you experience on a griddle. It was a very high volume opportunity for a rather specialized product. I don't think the R&D team working on it really ever grasped the importance. Dextrose is a lot less expensive than sugar, so they love it and want to put it in everything. They were telling me "no dextrose," but the product would not perfrom. It kept burning and leaving a caramelized mess on the grill. I got so frustrated that I took some of the samples to an independent lab for testing, and guess what, it did have dextrose in it. By that point, the opportunity was basically lost. For some reason, I took that one harder than most. I had put a lot into it over several months and lost the opportunity because someone else was trying to save a couple cents.

As for the sweetness, I personally perceive the sweetness about the same as sucrose when tasted straight. However, when used as an ingredient, it is not as sweet. Make two batches of lemonade with equal quantities of dextrose in one and sucrose in the other, and I think you will taste the difference. Sweetness can be easily managed however.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are some exotic sweeteners citrus extract such as Oh So Sweet+Reb A from Arnhem that are 1000X sweeter than sucrose. I touched it with my finger and tasted the dust that stuck, and it was like someone was pouring high fructose corn syrup into my mouth. Later that night when I was brushing my teeth, some of the molecules that were stuck under my gums came out and it was like I just drank sugar water.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #292 on: June 13, 2011, 05:44:06 PM »
The differences between sucrose vs. dextrose that caused me so many headaches had mostly to do with the very different browning/burning characteristics of the two at the high temperatures you experience on a griddle. It was a very high volume opportunity for a rather specialized product. I don't think the R&D team working on it really ever grasped the importance. Dextrose is a lot less expensive than sugar, so they love it and want to put it in everything. They were telling me "no dextrose," but the product would not perfrom. It kept burning and leaving a caramelized mess on the grill. I got so frustrated that I took some of the samples to an independent lab for testing, and guess what, it did have dextrose in it. By that point, the opportunity was basically lost. For some reason, I took that one harder than most. I had put a lot into it over several months and lost the opportunity because someone else was trying to save a couple cents.

As for the sweetness, I personally perceive the sweetness about the same as sucrose when tasted straight. However, when used as an ingredient, it is not as sweet. Make two batches of lemonade with equal quantities of dextrose in one and sucrose in the other, and I think you will taste the difference. Sweetness can be easily managed however.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are some exotic sweeteners citrus extract such as Oh So Sweet+Reb A from Arnhem that are 1000X sweeter than sucrose. I touched it with my finger and tasted the dust that stuck, and it was like someone was pouring high fructose corn syrup into my mouth. Later that night when I was brushing my teeth, some of the molecules that were stuck under my gums came out and it was like I just drank sugar water.

CL

Craig,

That was an interesting story about the product you were trying to develop, and how dextrose made the product burn and leave a caramelized mess on the grill.  Sorry, that you lost that opportunity because of dextrose.  It sounds like you have been developing many products including your delicious pizzas.  I didn’t know you did so much research.

I will make two batches of lemonade and see how the sweetness compares with using sugar or dextrose in equal amounts.  It is also interesting to hear exotic sweeteners citrus extract such as Oh So Sweet+Reb A.  I never knew there are so many ingredients that can be added to food, until I also started to learn more about different mixes.  You are way far ahead of me in understanding everything.  I never even thought about dextrose before this thread.

Norma

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #293 on: June 13, 2011, 07:57:55 PM »
I didn’t know you did so much research.

I spent 18 years in the food business in restaurant management, food sales, marketing, brokerage, and manufacturing.

CL
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #294 on: June 13, 2011, 08:34:52 PM »
I spent 18 years in the food business in restaurant management, food sales, marketing, brokerage, and manufacturing.

CL

Craig,

What you have done in 18 years is very impressive!  Congrats!  :) 

Norma

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #295 on: June 13, 2011, 08:42:04 PM »
Craig,

What you have done in 18 years is very impressive!  Congrats!  :)  

Norma

Thank you. I'm not sure about impressive, but I learned a lot. I should note that ironically, pizza is one segment of the industry I had almost zero experience in when I was in the business.

CL
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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #296 on: June 13, 2011, 08:56:41 PM »
Thank you. I'm not sure about impressive, but I learned a lot. I should note that ironically, pizza is one segment of the industry I had almost zero experience in when I was in the business.

CL

Craig,

I can understand how much you did learn from being in all those food related fields.  You sure have made up for the zero experience in the pizza field.   ;D

Thanks for helping on this thread.  I have no idea if there will ever be a successful pizza crust mix made or not, but at least so far GM products can be used with Peter’s “goody bag” to make different pizzas.  I have another Betty Crocker product I am going to try tomorrow with the added “goody bag” and also another attempt at a Sukie pizza.  At least it is fun experimenting to see what happens.

Norma

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #297 on: June 14, 2011, 12:01:15 PM »
Norma,

Since you have been investigating partially-hydrogenated oils, I thought that you might be interested in this article discussing saturated fats: http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2011/6/The%20truth%20about%20saturated%20fats.aspx.

Where most of the work with hydrogenated oils has been taking place in recent years is to reduce the trans fats. They apparently are still a major concern as far as heart health is concerned.

Peter

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #298 on: June 14, 2011, 10:40:00 PM »
Norma,

Since you have been investigating partially-hydrogenated oils, I thought that you might be interested in this article discussing saturated fats: http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2011/6/The%20truth%20about%20saturated%20fats.aspx.

Where most of the work with hydrogenated oils has been taking place in recent years is to reduce the trans fats. They apparently are still a major concern as far as heart health is concerned.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the article from bakingbusiness.com.  It says in that article that genetics do play a major role in how fats will affect different people.  I believe many people are concerned about any fats in foods. 

I did email Laura again at Abitec Corporations yesterday and asked her other questions about the products she sent me.  This is what I asked and what she replied.

Laura,
 
I wondered if I could ask you another question about the Sterotex HM and SterotecK samples you sent me..  I am wondering if they are 100%  fully hydrogenated oils, or are they partially-hydrogenated, meaning there is another carrier.  Are your products also spray dried?  I am trying to learn how these products then can help to keep something like a pizza crust mix stable.
 
Thanks,
 
Norma

Hi Norma,
 
The products are fully hydrogenated.  They are “spray chilled” rather than spray dried.  Rather than applying heat, we apply cold to solidify the product, then “prill” it into the very fine powder you received.  We are not adding BHA or BHT or other preservatives and generally have a one year shelf life recommendation.  Hope this helps.
 
Laura

Norma

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Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
« Reply #299 on: June 15, 2011, 09:36:10 AM »
Another Sukie mystery pizza was made yesterday, using the Betty Crocker Blueberry muffin mix, in combination with Peter’s “goody bag”.  This time I used 145 grams of water in the mix, but think from experimenting with these different mixes in combination with the “goody bags”, there needs to be more water added.  When the dough is mixed, it seems very sticky, but after letting this dough ferment at room temperature for 2 hrs., the dough does get drier.  That is why I think more water needs to be added in the beginning of the mix.  I will see after more experiments, if this is true.  The final blueberry Sukie pizza did turn out well, but I think there would have been more oven spring if I had added more water to the mix.  

The dressings for this Sukie pizza was reduced sugar strawberry preserves and after the bake fresh blueberries and strawberries were added.  All the near stand holders to me, are always asking when I am going to make another dessert Sukie pizza. They all love the samples. Even customers that go by, are interested in the dessert Sukie pizzas.  

I am learning to make Greek Yogurt (with a milk kefir starter, to sell at market), and think if I have it perfected until the next Sukie dessert pizza I make, I might try that as a dressing.  I really love Greek yogurt, but don’t know how that will hold up to the heat of an oven.

Pictures below

Norma

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