Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix ---any similar recipes or a clone ?????

[Saturday Coffee]

I would like to find a recipe for a dry pizza mix - easy enough for teenagers to make.

Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix - available at the nicer HEB grocery stores in Texas.  I keep it on hand because it's quick, cheap (under $1.50), it mixes in a small bowl with just a fork, no kneading or getting out the mixer to make.

INGREDIENTS: Unbleached Wheat Flour, Sugar, Dough Conditioner (Whey, L-Cysteine Hydrochloride), Salt, Yeast, Vegetable Shortening (Soybean Oil) and Non Fat Dry Milk.

Preparation directions on this website:
http://www.directionsforme.org/index.php/directions/product/PREPARE/00070107419784#Ingredients

I found shortening powders available on this website:  http://www.foodsourceinc.com/dairy.asp

The kids really like it, because they can have pizza often -- when their friends are over they can cook. It makes a fairly decent pizza. 

I especially like it when someone else cooks, and I don't have to shell out $40.00 for a couple of marginal-take out pizzas.

[wucactus1]

Dont really have any advice, but would like to chime in that this mill is in the same city I live in and happens to mill some great flour, its really cool to know that their products are found throughout the country, you happen to see their flour or other mixes?

[Pete-zza]

Saturday Morning,

Since you gave me a heads-up on this matter via PM, I had some time to look into the Weisenberger Mill and their products, including their Pizza Crust mix. The Weisenberger story is a fascinating one inasmuch as the mill has been in operation through several generations of the Weisenberger family since 1865, all in a small town called Midway, Kentucky (http://www.weisenberger.com/). Until you mentioned the company, I had never heard of them. Yet, they have a lot of interesting products.

After studying the ingredients list you provided and did my preliminary analysis, I was intrigued enough to call the Weisenberger Mill this morning to see if I could nail down some open questions on the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix. But even before calling the Mill, I immediately recognized a couple of ingredients in that mix--the whey and L-Cysteine Hydrochloride. That combination is known in the trade as PZ-44. I don't know how many manufacturers make that particular product but having researched and written about that product on several occasions on the forum before (you will also see the description of PZ-44 in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P), I came to identify the source of that product as Foremost Farms, a supplier of many dairy products to the professional trade (but not to individuals or the retail trade). You can read about PZ-44 at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf and at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/PZ-44_sell_sheet.pdf. If you do a forum search on PZ-44 under my forum name, you can also read some of my posts on that product. However, the key takeaway from my perspective from the Foremost PZ-44 documents is the recommended usage level for PZ-44, which is 1-2% of the formula flour.

As noted above, Foremost does not sell to individuals or the retail trade. Also, PZ-44 comes in 50-pound bags. However, as you can see from the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3458.msg29305.html#msg29305, I once cleared the way for another member, a home pizza maker like most of us on the forum, to get a 5-pound sample of PZ-44. I don't know what the member said, but he got the 5-pound sample.

Returning to my discussion with the person who answered my phone call at the Mill this morning, I learned several things about the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix. First, the flour is a 4:1 blend of a flour milled from strong red spring wheat (described to me as being essentially a bread flour) and a flour milled from soft red winter wheat. If I were to come up with a blend of flours to use for reverse engineering purposes, I think I would use a blend of King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and a cake or pastry flour, many of which are milled from soft red winter wheat (see, for example, the General Mills cake/pastry flours at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=ECake). If you proceed with this project, you might use a retail brand of cake flour--one that is plain cake flour without any other additives. King Arthur now sells an unbleached cake flour but if Weisenberger Mills is using a cake flour, I would guess that it is bleached. King Arthur also sells a pastry flour.

The second thing I learned is that the yeast mentioned at the Weisenberger Mills website at http://www.weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=62&CFID=10735857&CFTOKEN=29789802 is really not Red Star yeast but rather SAF instant dry yeast, which the Mill also sells as a separate product. Those familiar with yeast brands will know that both brands of yeast are owned and sold by the same company, Lesaffre (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/category/1/view/43).

The third thing I learned is that the vegetable shortening used in the Weisenberger Mills Pizza Crust Mix is a spray form of soybean oil. Spray or encapsulated oil products are commercial products. I have read the labels of countless margarine, lard and shortening products sold at the retail level and there is nothing that is just plain shortening made from vegetable oils. One would have to search out a commercial supplier and try to get samples of spray forms of oils for use in efforts to reconstruct the Weisenberger Mills Pizza Crust Mix.

The one thing I forgot to ask about the Weisenberger Mills Pizza Crust Mix is the sugar. Most "instant" type mixes, including pizza crust mixes, tend to use dextrose rather than ordinary table sugar (sucrose), or sometimes a combination of dextrose and various other forms of sugar. The advantage of using dextrose is that it is a simple/reducing sugar that is immediately available to feed the yeast and can participate in the Maillard reactions to produce crust coloration. Sucrose is a complex sugar and needs to be broken down into simple sugars for the yeast to use, which can take some time. If I were trying to reconstruct the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix, I think I would use dextrose instead of table sugar. Dextrose is inexpensive and available from many online sources. In retrospect, maybe it was a good idea that I didn't ask about the sugar in the mix being dextrose. That might have outed me.

If you are able to get the ingredients discussed above, I think there is a reasonable chance of coming up with a functional clone of the Weisenberger Mills Pizza Crust Mix. I might be able to help you with some numbers, but I would rather not spend the time at this point to come up with a set of numbers as a purely academic exercise. The task is not as simple as it might appear given the seeming simplicity of the ingredients used in the mix. But, that said, I would perhaps build the reconstruction around the PZ-44 based on knowing the recommended levels of usage of that product.

It was also interesting to see that the Weisenberger Mills Pizza Crust Mix comes in a large bag and also in multiple packs of the small pouches. The killer is that shipping costs can be high (I was told that the shipping for me in Texas would be more than the price of the product). I see that Amazon sells the multiple packs that are eligible for free shipping for orders over $25 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00473ULA0/?tag=pmak-20), but I did not see the larger size (5-pound bag) available at Amazon.

Peter

EDIT (2/7/13): For an alternative to the above PZ-44 link that is no longer operative (since the PZ-44 product line was sold to another company), see http://web.archive.org/web/20111124052707/http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf

[Saturday Coffee]

What a wealth of information on Weisenberger. This was a great lesson reading the above post on PZ-44 and dough conditioners. 

http://www.weisenberger.com/category.cfm?Category=28&CFID=10742192&CFTOKEN=22864060

I had no idea that 5 pound bags of the Weisenberger Pizza Crust are available, priced just right at $4.95 also currently out of stock on the company website. This should make about 12 pizzas.  I'll just write/telephone phone my local HEB (Texas grocery store chain) and request this product be added to their shelves.  If I could get one or two 5 lb. bags every month -- I won't attempt to bother with making a mix myself. 

I'm not sure if HEB carries any of their specialty flours or other products. The Houston ([email protected] Hill) HEB is a zoo -- I always go in there with a mission, a shopping list, and a goal to get out as quick as I can.

[Pete-zza]

Saturday Coffee,

I took your opening post to include "instant" type pizza dough premixes other than the one from Weisenberger Mill.

In this vein, you might want to check out the Kroger pizza crust mix as described at http://www.directionsforme.org/index.php/directions/product/PREPARPL/00011110852144, with the following ingredients:

Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Dextrose, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate), Whey, Soybean Oil, Salt, Active Dry Yeast with Sorbitan Monostearate, L-Cysteine Monohydrochloride.

You will note that the ingredients include whey and L-Cysteine Monohydrochloride, which are the same ingredients that go into the PZ-44 product. There is also active dry yeast and, possibly for good measure, a chemical leavening system. It's hard to say from the ingredients list whether the leavening system is encapsulated in some form so that it kicks in only during baking. The sugar form is dextrose.

If you decide to give the Kroger pizza crust mix a try, I hope you will let us know if it is any good, and how it compares with the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix.

Peter
 

[Saturday Coffee]

Dont really have any advice, but would like to chime in that this mill is in the same city I live in and happens to mill some great flour, its really cool to know that their products are found throughout the country, you happen to see their flour or other mixes?

Went to HEB (grocery store) today and looked around at all the flours.  No other products from Weisenberger, and I got the last 6.5 oz pkg of Pizza Dough Mix.   I filled out a request card for HEB to carry the 5lb bags of Pizza Dough Mix.  HEB has my contact information now, so maybe they will call.   I will probably follow up with a letter to the store, when time permits.   

[Saturday Coffee]

I have scrapped the pizza mix idea for right now since I can order a 5lb bag direct from Weisenberger. 

It's still in the back of my mind, and I will revisit the idea again after I get some samples of powdered shortening and commercial dough conditioners. 

[Pete-zza]

In Reply 2 in this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139922.html#msg139922), I mentioned the possibility of using dextrose in lieu of sugar for a reverse engineering of the Weisenberger pizza crust formulation. Since I have often wondered whether one could list sugar as an ingredient when its actual form is dextrose, and having failed to find the answer through my searches at the Food and Drug Administration website, over the weekend I posed the question to the FDA via email. I reported on what I found at Reply 224 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140310.html#msg140310. In short, if sugar is listed as an ingredient, it means (or is supposed to mean) sucrose. Ordinary table sugar is sucrose.

Peter

[norma427]

Saturday Coffee was kind enough to send me two Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mixes to try.  I didn’t know I was going to be sent these two pizza mixes, but they arrived today at market. I was really surprised to receive these nice presents today.  I want to thank Saturday Coffee very much for sending me these two Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mixes to do research with.   Steve and I tried the one Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix today and Steve, stand holders a few customers and I all thought the Weisenberger Pizza Curst mix made a very good pizza in a short while.  We made a 12" NY style pizza with the Weisenberger pizza crust mix.  The crust browned well, there was moistness in the rim and a good crumb structure and the bottom crust browned nicely.  Steve and I followed the directions, but let the dough rise two times and then reballed each time.  The finished crust had a very good taste.  Weisnberger must know what they are doing when they make a pizza crust mix.

Thanks again Saturday Coffee, this was the best test pizza of the day!  

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[Saturday Coffee]

We made a 12" NY style pizza with the Weisenberger pizza crust mix.  The crust browned well, there was moistness in the rim and a good crumb structure and the bottom crust browned nicely.  Steve and I followed the directions, but let the dough rise two times and then reballed each time.  The finished crust had a very good taste. ... ... ...  

Norma (and Steve) nice pie !!! Yours turned out much nicer looking than the few I have made from the mix.

The second rise could very well be be a critical factor and thus elevate the status of this pizza mix from satisfactory to sensational.

Great job.

[norma427]

Norma (and Steve) nice pie !!! Yours turned out much nicer looking than the few I have made from the mix.

The second rise could very well be be a critical factor and thus elevate the status of this pizza mix from satisfactory to sensational.

Great job.

Saturday Coffee,

Thanks for your kind words.  I found in my other thread of mystery pizzas (using other mixes), that letting the dough ferment one or two times, and then balling the dough does give a better taste to the crust of all of them.  The Weisenberger pizza crust mix tasted very good, with using this method.  Letting the dough ferment longer does help when using a pizza crust mix, at least in my opinion.  The Weisenberger pizza crust mix was very good!

Thanks again, we all enjoyed the finished pizza. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Out of curiosity, today I called the Weisenberger Mill again to see if the flour(s) used to make the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix are bromated. This time, a woman answered. The answer I got from her was that the flour used to make their Pizza Crust Mix was not bromated. She then went on to add that the flour for that mix is milled from local wheat grains. When I asked her if the flour was like a bread flour, she said no. She added that if it were bread flour that would mean a hard red spring wheat from states that are in the northern part of the country. As a followup, I asked her if the flour for the mix was a soft winter wheat. She immediately said yes. Even though what she told me was different than the explanation I had gotten from my original call, I thanked her for her time and help.

I then did a search to see what kinds of wheat varieties are grown in Kentucky. Pretty much everything that I found from the search said that the wheat grains grown in Kentucky are of the soft red winter variety. Using that as a baseline, I then went to the General Mills flour website to try to identify GM flours that are based on soft red winter wheat. The candidates can be seen at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=ECake. Of the four brands noted there, there is only one brand that is based on soft red winter wheat, and that is the Golden Shield pastry flour, with a protein content of 8.5%. That protein content seems to square with the protein values of the soft red winter wheat grains that I saw from my searches. Note that the Golden Shield flour is not bleached. The Helmet flour is the same as the Golden Shield flour but bleached.

For comparison purposes, I looked at the King Arthur pastry flours. I identified two, the Round Table pastry flour that is sold to professionals (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html) and the other an unbleached retail brand as described at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-unbleached-pastry-flour-3-lb. However, it will be noted that the Round Table pastry flour, while having a protein content of around 9.2%, is a blend of "Soft white/red winter wheat" not just soft red winter wheat. The other KA pastry flour is made from "soft wheat", with a protein content of 8%.

Because of conflicting information from the folks at Weisenberger Mill, this means that one attempting a reverse engineering and cloning of the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix may have to play around with different possible flours/blends. Or else try to get further clarification. Maybe another member can call and discreetly ask for an explanation.

Peter

Edit: Corrected the discussion of the Golden Shield and Helmet flours to note that the Golden Shield flour is not bleached and that the Helmet flour is the same as the Golden Shield flour but bleached.

[norma427]

Peter,

I saw your post on the Weisenberger thread, and did call Weisenberger Mills Friday afternoon.  I must have talked to the same lady as you did.  I told her I had tried the pizza crust mix, sent to me by someone, and asked if I could buy the kind of flour they used in the pizza crust mix to try in some pizzas I make at market.  I asked the lady what kind of flour would I buy and she told me unbleached soft All Purpose flour is what they use in their pizza crust mix. http://www.weisenberger.com/category.cfm?Category=11&CFID=10742034&CFTOKEN=95599290 That flour is soft red winter wheat.

That made me curious, if she really knew what she was talking about for the flour used in the pizza crust mix.  I had posted at Repy 277 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg142360.html#msg142360 the southern gentleman had told me they used strong red spring wheat, but didn’t tell me it included the soft winter wheat, like you posted at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139922.html#msg139922 It now makes me wonder if Weisenberger’s does use this flour in their pizza crust mixes or at least for part of the flour mix. http://www.weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=105&CFID=10742034&CFTOKEN=95599290   I don’t know if either you or I could talk to the nice southern gentleman again or not, but he told me to call if I have any other questions.  I don’t even know if we would get correct information if either of us would call again.

Norma                          

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Yesterday, I did some quick calculations in order to determine what the hydration is for a dough made using the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix (WPCM). I thought that that would tell me something about the type of flour used in the mix. As you know, the instructions for making the dough from the WPCM call for using 1/2 cup (4 fluid ounces) of water.

My first calculation simply assumed that the entire contents of the WPCM, 6.5 ounces, is all flour (which, of course, is not true) and, on that basis, I got a hydration value of about 63%. I then tightened up my calculation by assuming that of the 6.5 ounces, about 92% of it is flour. On that basis, I got a hydration value of about 68%. But, using either value, it would seem unlikely that a flour milled from only soft red winter wheat would be able to hold either value of hydration. A more logical hydration for such a flour, with a typical protein content of around 9%, would be in the low-to-mid-50s percent.

A more plausible case is that the flour used in the WPCM is either a flour milled from hard red spring wheat or a blend of a flour milled from hard red spring wheat and a flour milled from soft red winter wheat, as we were told by the gentlemen we spoke with at Weisenberger Mill. Unless the Mill has been very sloppy with its product labeling, either case would be consistent with the fact that the Weisenberger website notes at http://www.weisenberger.com/category.cfm?Category=28&CFID=10735857&CFTOKEN=29789802 that the WPCM includes "strong spring wheat flour". A hydration of around 68% might still be a bit high for either flour/blend, but that might be intentional if the dough is capable of being "vigorously" stirred in a bowl using only a fork (as the instructions note).

I also did some research yesterday to see if I could identify an "all-purpose" flour sold at the retail level that is milled from only soft red winter wheat. As noted at the Weisenberger website at http://www.weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=23&CFID=10735857&CFTOKEN=29789802, the label pasted to the bag of Weisenberger all-purpose flour says that it is only "soft red winter wheat". That would further suggest that there is no enrichment of the flour or any malting of the flour. The only other retail level "all-purpose" flour that I could find quickly is the White Lily flour. As noted at the White Lily website at http://www.whitelily.com/Products/Default.aspx, that flour is "Milled from only 100% pure, soft red winter wheat". The nutrition facts can be seen at http://www.whitelily.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?categoryId=305&prodID=786. Unfortunately, because of rounding factors, it is hard to say what the exact protein content of the flour is. I might also note that I recently saw a different set of Nutrition Facts for the White Lily all-purpose flour from a protein standpoint at http://www.walmart.com/ip/White-Lily-All-Purpose-Bleached-Flour-5-lb/10535905. I have no explanation for the difference. It might also be noted that the White Lily flour is both bleached and enriched, but apparently is not malted.

To add somewhat to the confusion, although Weisenberger specifies only soft red winter wheat for its all-purpose flour, in its "A Guide to Flours" section at http://www.weisenberger.com/pages.cfm?id=13, the all-purpose white flour is described as being "a blend of soft and hard wheat flours". That is a fairly typical case. However, as we now know, an all-purpose flour can be milled only from a soft red winter wheat. It can also be milled from only a hard red winter wheat, as is the case, for example, with the King Arthur all-purpose flour (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flours/all-purpose-flour.html).

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Yesterday, I did some quick calculations in order to determine what the hydration is for a dough made using the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix (WPCM). I thought that that would tell me something about the type of flour used in the mix. As you know, the instructions for making the dough from the WPCM call for using 1/2 cup (4 fluid ounces) of water.

My first calculation simply assumed that the entire contents of the WPCM, 6.5 ounces, is all flour (which, of course, is not true) and, on that basis, I got a hydration value of about 63%. I then tightened up my calculation by assuming that of the 6.5 ounces, about 92% of it is flour. On that basis, I got a hydration value of about 68%. But, using either value, it would seem unlikely that a flour milled from only soft red winter wheat would be able to hold either value of hydration. A more logical hydration for such a flour, with a typical protein content of around 9%, would be in the low-to-mid-50s percent.

A more plausible case is that the flour used in the WPCM is either a flour milled from hard red spring wheat or a blend of a flour milled from hard red spring wheat and a flour milled from soft red winter wheat, as we were told by the gentlemen we spoke with at Weisenberger Mill. Unless the Mill has been very sloppy with its product labeling, either case would be consistent with the fact that the Weisenberger website notes at http://www.weisenberger.com/category.cfm?Category=28&CFID=10735857&CFTOKEN=29789802 that the WPCM includes "strong spring wheat flour". A hydration of around 68% might still be a bit high for either flour/blend, but that might be intentional if the dough is capable of being "vigorously" stirred in a bowl using only a fork (as the instructions note).

I also did some research yesterday to see if I could identify an "all-purpose" flour sold at the retail level that is milled from only soft red winter wheat. As noted at the Weisenberger website at http://www.weisenberger.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=23&CFID=10735857&CFTOKEN=29789802, the label pasted to the bag of Weisenberger all-purpose flour says that it is only "soft red winter wheat". That would further suggest that there is no enrichment of the flour or any malting of the flour. The only other retail level "all-purpose" flour that I could find quickly is the White Lily flour. As noted at the White Lily website at http://www.whitelily.com/Products/Default.aspx, that flour is "Milled from only 100% pure, soft red winter wheat". The nutrition facts can be seen at http://www.whitelily.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?categoryId=305&prodID=786. Unfortunately, because of rounding factors, it is hard to say what the exact protein content of the flour is. I might also note that I recently saw a different set of Nutrition Facts for the White Lily all-purpose flour from a protein standpoint at http://www.walmart.com/ip/White-Lily-All-Purpose-Bleached-Flour-5-lb/10535905. I have no explanation for the difference. It might also be noted that the White Lily flour is both bleached and enriched, but apparently is not malted.

To add somewhat to the confusion, although Weisenberger specifies only soft red winter wheat for its all-purpose flour, in its "A Guide to Flours" section at http://www.weisenberger.com/pages.cfm?id=13, the all-purpose white flour is described as being "a blend of soft and hard wheat flours". That is a fairly typical case. However, as we now know, an all-purpose flour can be milled only from a soft red winter wheat. It can also be milled from only a hard red winter wheat, as is the case, for example, with the King Arthur all-purpose flour (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flours/all-purpose-flour.html).

Peter

Peter,

It is interesting you did do quick calculations yesterday, to see what the hydration of the Weisenberger pizza crust might be, using the ½ cup of water.  I can understand, based on your calculations, that 68% would be high for a flour milled from only soft red winter wheat.  I also think the floured used in the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix, probably is either a hard red spring wheat flour or a flour combination of hard red spring wheat and a flour milled from soft red winter wheat.  I also wondered about if the labeling could be sloppy, from the Weisenberger Pizza crust mix saying the flour was strong spring wheat flour. 

It also makes sense about the malting as tjkoko, did report at Reply 53   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13574.msg136304.html#msg136304 that with Weisenberger’s flours, you would need to add diastatic malt to their flours.

I wonder why White Lily flour would have different Nutrition Fact at two places.  I really don’t know if the While Lily flour has changed, but in this series of comments, it seems like the White Lily flour might have changed.  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/530286

I also saw the confusion on the Weisenberger’s guide to flours, about the all-purpose white flour is a blend of soft and hard wheat.

Do you think you will email or call Weisenberger’s to get some kind of clarifications?  All of this seems quite confusing to me.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

When a seemingly very knowledgeable employee of Weisenberger Mill tells me that they use a 4:1 blend of a flour milled from strong red spring wheat (described to me as being essentially a bread flour) and a flour milled from soft red winter wheat for the WPCM, as I was originally told, that is quite specific. If it were not true, then it would have to be a fabrication. So, until better or more accurate information comes to our attention, I would be inclined to go with the 4:1 blend. I am not sure that there is much point in trying to exact better information out of Weisenberger at this point. Making further calls of the cross examining nature we have made might arouse their suspicion.

I also saw other signs of sloppiness at the Weisenberger website, including misspelllings, reference to "bromides" instead of bromates, referring to the Red Star yeast when they appear to be using the SAF yeast (even though produced by the same yeast company), and references to " special conditions" instead of special conditioners (presumably meaning the PZ-44 product). The more such errors one finds, the less credible other information becomes. For example, I am not sure how much I can believe their Weisenberger labeling information. It may well be that we won't find the answers until someone actually gets the types of ingredients used in the WPCM and tries to reverse engineer and clone that product.

On the matter of using diastatic malt with the Weisenberger flours, that might apply to some other baking application, but I don't think that it applies to our efforts to reverse engineer and clone the WPCM. I believe that Weisenberger is using its own unmalted flours to make the WPCM.

With respect to the White Lily all-purpose flour, it is true that the original White Lily company was acquired by the J.M. Smucker company, as noted in the chowhound thread. Sometimes in such acquisitions the acquiring company makes changes to the products as were produced by the acquired company. However, the acquisition of the White Lily brand was toward the end of 2006, so that wouldn't explain the different Nutrition Facts. Maybe the company periodically revises or updates its Nutrition Facts based on the changes in the flour quality from year to year. Maybe I will send White Lily an email asking them for an explanation. I'd also like to know if they have an unbleached version of their all-purpose flour.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

When a seemingly very knowledgeable employee of Weisenberger Mill tells me that they use a 4:1 blend of a flour milled from strong red spring wheat (described to me as being essentially a bread flour) and a flour milled from soft red winter wheat for the WPCM, as I was originally told, that is quite specific. If it were not true, then it would have to be a fabrication. So, until better or more accurate information comes to our attention, I would be inclined to go with the 4:1 blend. I am not sure that there is much point in trying to exact better information out of Weisenberger at this point. Making further calls of the cross examining nature we have made might arouse their suspicion.

I also saw other signs of sloppiness at the Weisenberger website, including misspelllings, reference to "bromides" instead of bromates, referring to the Red Star yeast when they appear to be using the SAF yeast (even though produced by the same yeast company), and references to " special conditions" instead of special conditioners (presumably meaning the PZ-44 product). The more such errors one finds, the less credible other information becomes. For example, I am not sure how much I can believe their Weisenberger labeling information. It may well be that we won't find the answers until someone actually gets the types of ingredients used in the WPCM and tries to reverse engineer and clone that product.

On the matter of using diastatic malt with the Weisenberger flours, that might apply to some other baking application, but I don't think that it applies to our efforts to reverse engineer and clone the WPCM. I believe that Weisenberger is using its own unmalted flours to make the WPCM.

With respect to the White Lily all-purpose flour, it is true that the original White Lily company was acquired by the J.M. Smucker company, as noted in the chowhound thread. Sometimes in such acquisitions the acquiring company makes changes to the products as were produced by the acquired company. However, the acquisition of the White Lily brand was toward the end of 2006, so that wouldn't explain the different Nutrition Facts. Maybe the company periodically revises or updates its Nutrition Facts based on the changes in the flour quality from year to year. Maybe I will send White Lily an email asking them for an explanation. I'd also like to know if they have an unbleached version of their all-purpose flour.

Peter

Peter,

I agree there is no use in calling or emailing Weisenberger Mills anymore, since there are also other signs of sloppiness at the Weisenberger website.  I also would believe the seemingly knowledgeable employee that you spoke to, and said that they use a 4:1 blend in the WPCM, would probably be correct.  I don’t think any other better accurate information will come to our attention, unless it is someone that has worked at Weisenberger Mills. 

These are two posts, on The Fresh Loaf, about Weisenberger’s, and from these two posts I can see Weisenberger’s might not use all Kentucky flour in some of their flours,   I guess you already know Weisenberger’s might get some other stronger flours to mix in, from other places, since Kentucky only grows soft wheat.

In this thread on The Fresh Loaf a person posts: While you're here, be sure to try out some flour from Weisenberger Mills in Midway. They have a wide variety of flours that I highly recommend. They even carry flour milled from wheat grown right here in Kentucky! It's a little soft, but perfect for rolls, biscuits, quick breads, etc.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15919/greetings-kentucky

and

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14855/artisan-bread-soft-wheat-it-can-be-done

I didn’t look at the date of  the acquisition of White Lily to the J.M. Smucker Company.  I don’t know a lot about flours, but I could understand that flour companies could change Nutritional Data if their flour changes in flour quality from one  year to the next.  I never even thought of that.

If someone did try to clone the Weisenberger pizza mix, would it matter, if the flour like White Lily was bleached.  Would that make any difference in the final pizza?

Norma