Author Topic: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)  (Read 79368 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 27377
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #200 on: December 28, 2016, 02:38:16 PM »
I sure remember those bubbles..even though my first pies were in NJ, not NYC. Also the crust flavor was something different than I've ever tasted since. I know I've told the story about going to dinner with my brother 4 or 5 years ago at a little pizza place in the town we grew up in. He'd been before, but it was my first time


 The Italian bar/restauarnt/pizzeria we cut our pizza teeth on back in the 60's, Primo's,   had been closed (actually, burned down) for decades..just a memory.  But when the pizza came to the table that night, he told me to try a slice first. One bite and I started laughing. Primo's, I said, naming our boyhood pizza shop. Yes, he said, Yes, exactly. This shop had purchased Primo's recipes many years before and still make them today. It was very cool.   Even now, I'm not quite sure what's different about these pies...and I must admit I haven't had any since I've become a pizza extremist...but I bet if Peter or Tom tasted it, they'd know right away. Wanna do a road trip, guys?  Lake Hiawatha, NJ is lovely in January  :-D

Bill,

Your Primo's Pizzeria sounds a lot like Zangari's in Lancaster used to be 25-30 years ago.  Zangari's pizza used to be the ôKing of pizza" in Lancaster.  A little more about that old school pizza, which is now Alley Kat.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g52970-d3826924-r188596898-Alley_Kat-Lancaster_Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html 

And https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g52970-d3826924-Reviews-Alley_Kat-Lancaster_Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html#photos;geo=52970&detail=3826924&ff=177248919&albumViewMode=hero&albumid=103&baseMediaId=177248919&thumbnailMinWidth=50&cnt=30&offset=-1&filter=2

A lady spoke to me the other week at market and told me Alley Kat still uses the original Zangari's recipe.  She said she is friends with the lady that makes all of the dough for Alley Kat.  That lady purchased the recipes from the Zangari's.  I might have to go and talk to her someday.  For some reason I never tried Zangari's pizza in Lancaster when they had many shops. 

Norma

Offline HarryHaller73

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 553
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #201 on: December 28, 2016, 04:13:40 PM »
I asked John Arena these questions:

I wanted to ask you a question about when your family make pizzas in NYC and what you recall about them. I mean did they have flat and little rims, and was the taste of the crust not as good as NY pizzas they have today? The reason I am asking is Madeline has commented on Walter's photos and said they look like what Madeline's father taught people how to make. Walter's rim crusts are more puffy and there is a really good taste to his crusts. Madeline said that is how she remembers pizzas her dad use to help pizzerias make. I saw that photo of Vinnie Mastro and the really small electric pizza ovens that the Mastro family invented, and those rim crusts do look somewhat like Walter's. If what Madeline recalls is true, then how did NYC pizzas start to have the smaller rim crusts that are rather dense? Was that because of short time doughs and lack of refrigeration? I don't know if you can understand what I am trying to explain. I am just curious about what NY pizza looked like a long time ago, and what some of them still look like today.

This is what John answered:

Mastro taught to make the pizza with a pronounced edge Never flat. The edge should not be dense or compressed Mastro sold frozen dough but it was very good .Most places did quick ferment.  Dough was made in morning and left out all day. Remainder was saved for next day but refrigeration and space was limited.  Pizzas were cooked much darker and because of quick ferment they bubbled a lot. People loved the burnt bubbles and fought over the bubble slices!! Walters pies look great but are more modern . Lighter bake and very round. I think the modern dough is better.  More complex.  Keep in mind that the lighter bake also became popular because pizza by the slice started to dominate and typically those pies are undercooked so they don't dry out and can stand up to reheating.

Norma

I never met people fighting for bubbles.  Bubbles were frowned upon especially if they were large and in the middle of the pie.  A good pizzamaker knew how to slap out co2 gas in any condition dough.  He seems to know alot of tricks like undercooking them to keep pies from going bad while sitting on a counter for a long time, unsold.  Maybe he comes from that heritage.  He sure projects his own personal opinions well to generalize an entire industry.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 04:58:08 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2438
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #202 on: December 29, 2016, 10:51:13 AM »
That's pretty cool, Norma...Too bad there are no Time Machines..yet,  LOL)   We could do a Primo's/Zangari crawl and see/taste what we're missing  :)


HH, never met anyone fighting for bubbles? Well, you never met and and my  brother, LOL. As I recall, those bubbles weren't  charred..just raised. Pretty sure there were no slices at Primo's, just whole pies. Though being 12 or so, I never sat at the bar, so not sure  if they served slices there.


Kinda need a Primo's slice right now! But if I can hold out for the rest of the day, the plan, weather cooperating, is a  Trenton (pronounced Treh-uhn) tomato pie at Papa's tonight.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 27377
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #203 on: December 29, 2016, 11:21:19 AM »
That's pretty cool, Norma...Too bad there are no Time Machines..yet,  LOL)   We could do a Primo's/Zangari crawl and see/taste what we're missing  :)


HH, never met anyone fighting for bubbles? Well, you never met and and my  brother, LOL. As I recall, those bubbles weren't  charred..just raised. Pretty sure there were no slices at Primo's, just whole pies. Though being 12 or so, I never sat at the bar, so not sure  if they served slices there.


Kinda need a Primo's slice right now! But if I can hold out for the rest of the day, the plan, weather cooperating, is a  Trenton (pronounced Treh-uhn) tomato pie at Papa's tonight.

Bill,

Lol, I agree too bad there are no Time Machines yet.  I did go to Alley Kat/with Zangari's recipe a long while ago at Reply 9 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9803.msg85411#msg85411   

And the deal they have at Alley Kat.

https://www.facebook.com/Alleykatbar/photos/a.375309269204961.83034.373855646016990/1152226258179921/?type=3&theater

Some of those little bubbles can be seen.   

Cool about you and your brother fighting for bubbles.  A lot of my customers like bubbles too.  For me they come if my doughs are too cold, or not fermented enough. 

Your Primo's sound great!  If you go to Papa's make sure they don't burn the bottom crust of your pizza, unless you like a really charred bottom crust.  I don't like a lot of charring on the bottom crust.  Trenton Bill and I should have sent that pizza back, but other customers didn't have that dark of a bottom crust.  My posts starts at Reply 19 about Papa's https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25251.msg255118#msg255118   

Have fun if you go to Papa's tonight!  ;D

Norma

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2438
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #204 on: December 29, 2016, 10:32:23 PM »
Thanks Norma.. We made it there and it was plenty busy. The vibe was very friendly and family-oriented...and the place was packed,


Great friendly server too.


The pizza? We had a half-sausage half plain. Sausage pretty good, nothing special. Same for cheese and sauce. The crust seemed to be same day and had a complete absence of flavor to me. The  crust  were nice and thin,   definitely not burned. All in all, okay, but won;'t be back. DeLo's tomato pies wins by a mile

Offline invertedisdead

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1926
  • Rest In Pizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #205 on: December 29, 2016, 11:29:20 PM »
Pie looks good though, guess the old saying is true, you can't judge a pizza by its cover.
Ryan


Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2438
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #206 on: December 30, 2016, 09:07:51 AM »
It does, really...but, alas. Even tried a reheat this morning..main flavor salt. Crust: none. A shame, because the portions are big, LOL


Of course, I was probably the only one there not loving the pie...Making our own  and working with the amazing pizza makers here sets a bar that very few places can even approach. Sure doesn't hurt their bottom line, though. A very homelike place...the main featured item on house salad was pickled beets...like going to grandma's  :)


Tell Granny I won't be back soon  :( >:D :-D
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 09:11:08 AM by Jersey Pie Boy »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 27377
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #207 on: December 30, 2016, 09:17:18 AM »
Thanks Norma.. We made it there and it was plenty busy. The vibe was very friendly and family-oriented...and the place was packed,


Great friendly server too.


The pizza? We had a half-sausage half plain. Sausage pretty good, nothing special. Same for cheese and sauce. The crust seemed to be same day and had a complete absence of flavor to me. The  crust  were nice and thin,   definitely not burned. All in all, okay, but won;'t be back. DeLo's tomato pies wins by a mile

Bill,

I had about the same experiences as you did at Papa's, except our pie had the kind of char we didn't like.  I was happy to go to the old Papa's, and Trenton Bill and I were expecting a better pizza.  Everyone was nice at Papa's.

Agree about De Lorenzo's, but Bill said the old De Lorenzo's was better. 


Norma

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2438
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
« Reply #208 on: December 30, 2016, 09:43:00 AM »
Ah, wish I'd been to the old DeLo's...alas, all gone.