Please comment / critique my dough!

[GarlicLover]

Hello all. I'm an amateur pizza maker, and here's how I do my dough. Don't laugh please.

One small bowl, one large bowl.

Small bowl:

230 ml of lukewarm water,
1 active dry yeast
1 tablespoon of sugar
3 tablespoons of olive oil

Large bowl:

Around 450 grams of flour.
1 teaspoon of salt.

Then I pour the ingredients from small bowl into large bowl. I mix it all up, take it out, place on a firm surface, and knead for about 5 minutes. Then I place it back into the large bowl and cover it up. After about 2 hours of rising, I knead it again for another 5 minutes.

Then I cut it into 3 pieces, and form balls. This makes three medium-sized, thin pizzas.

What can I do better? Comment / critique is very much appreciated.

Thanks!

[c0mpl3x]

try bumping up another 50ml of water, and dropping to 1-2T oil as 1T oil is roughly 15g.  10% oil is rather high for a crust. a well floured countertop and hands may/will be needed to prevent sticking, but your hydration is rather low.  most average flours have around a 60-65% water absorption rate

[FeCheF]

Well for starters, how long are you fermenting your dough? Are you kneading by hand or using a mixer? You mentioned 2 hours to rise, but didnt say if thats a room temp rise or a cold rise. Also you knead again and form your dough balls? Are you letting them rise again, or are you shaping them into skins and cooking them right away?

Personally, I would knead for 10-15 minutes using a mixer, if by hand, I would knead for 20-30 minutes. I measure by grams and ounces so i cant help you with ml measurements. I would also reduce your oil from 3 TBSP to 1 TBSP. Sugar and salt seems to be a good ratio.Although I would use 1 1/2 TBSP of honey instead of sugar as thats my personal taste.

If you are looking to try another recipe, I highly recommend JerryMac's poolish + Dough recipe. Its a one day room temp ferment, and has really great flavor. I would put it at cross between a french bread, sourdough taste. Better then some of the 24 hour cold rise recipes ive tried. Just beware its a soft dough and not easy to work with. I usually stretch it out and flour both sides and repeat till its a bit firm. Then work the rest on the peel and toss some flour underneath as i stretch and pull to the size i want, then top it , brush a bit of oil on the rim and toss it on the pizza stone.

Anyway good luck, post some pics next time.

[buceriasdon]

GarlicLover, Could you clarify what you after after dividing and balling? Do you allow the balls to rest for a period of time then form the skins?
Don

[GarlicLover]

GarlicLover, Could you clarify what you after after dividing and balling? Do you allow the balls to rest for a period of time then form the skins?
Don

At that point I already form the skins and make the pizza.

[GarlicLover]

Are you kneading by hand or using a mixer?

By hand.

You mentioned 2 hours to rise, but didnt say if thats a room temp rise or a cold rise.

Room temp.

Also you knead again and form your dough balls? Are you letting them rise again, or are you shaping them into skins and cooking them right away?

Cook right away.

[GarlicLover]

try bumping up another 50ml of water, and dropping to 1-2T oil as 1T oil is roughly 15g.  10% oil is rather high for a crust. a well floured countertop and hands may/will be needed to prevent sticking, but your hydration is rather low.  most average flours have around a 60-65% water absorption rate

Alright, thanks.

[FeCheF]

By hand.

You definitly need to knead at the least, 10 minutes.

Room temp.

Try 4 hour room temp rise, and skip the second 5 minute knead, your just removing gases (nice air pockets in dough) So just try and make your first knead as long as your hands/wrists can stand.

Cook right away.

After the 4 hour room temp rise you should be good to go.

[c0mpl3x]

You definitly need to knead at the least, 10 minutes.Try 4 hour room temp rise, and skip the second 5 minute knead, your just removing gases (nice air pockets in dough) So just try and make your first knead as long as your hands/wrists can stand.After the 4 hour room temp rise you should be good to go.

 i think it's safe to say that myself and other forum members personally and professionally prefer stretch and fold over kneading.  same concept, different execution basically.  makes over-hydrated dough as easy to ball as a lump of clay

[FeCheF]

i think it's safe to say that myself and other forum members personally and professionally prefer stretch and fold over kneading.  same concept, different execution basically.  makes over-hydrated dough as easy to ball as a lump of clay

But he didnt mention if his dough was under or over hydrated. He said he was kneading by hand, and 5 minutes is definitly not enough time to knead by hand.

He really should give JerryMac's poolish/dough recipe a try. Since its actually made for hand kneading, and is a over-hydrated dough. Great flavor aswell.

[GarlicLover]

But he didnt mention if his dough was under or over hydrated. He said he was kneading by hand, and 5 minutes is definitly not enough time to knead by hand.

How do I tell the amount of hydration? I am guessing stickiness vs. dryness. Actually, it seems to be fine in that regard, although I will add a little bit more water from now on, and knead for about 10 minutes (at least).

He really should give JerryMac's poolish/dough recipe a try. Since its actually made for hand kneading, and is a over-hydrated dough. Great flavor aswell.

Will do. Thanks.

[GarlicLover]

post some pics next time.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15957.0.html

[parallei]

How do I tell the amount of hydration?

You divide the weight of water by the weight of flour and then multiply by 100.  Using the recipe you posted at the start of this thread:

230g H20
450g flour
(230/450)*100 = 51.1% hydration   (note that 1 ml water weighs 1g)

if you add the additional 50 ml water c0mpl3x recommended, you'd end up with:

(280/450)*100 = 62.2 % hydration

62.2 % hydration is pretty typical for a NY style dough.  To me your 51.1 % hydration seems low (as c0mpl3x implied).

If I remember correctly, JerryMac's dough is 65 or 66% hydration or so, and it works great.

Good luck!  The pie you posted a photo of looks good......

[GarlicLover]

62.2 % hydration is pretty typical for a NY style dough.  To me your 51.1 % hydration seems low (as c0mpl3x implied).

If I remember correctly, JerryMac's dough is 65 or 66% hydration or so, and it works great.

Good luck!  The pie you posted a photo of looks good......

Thanks. Now my question is, wouldn't a dough with 62.2 % hydration be very difficult to handle because of it's stickiness? I mean, adding more flour to it for better kneading would reduce it's hydration, so what is the best way to do this?

[FeCheF]

Thanks. Now my question is, wouldn't a dough with 62.2 % hydration be very difficult to handle because of it's stickiness? I mean, adding more flour to it for better kneading would reduce it's hydration, so what is the best way to do this?

Best way is to use a mixer. If your hand kneading, lube your hands up with some veg/olive oil while kneading.
When time to stretch/shape your dough, you can rub some four on your hands and sprinkle a bit on the ball as you shape/stretch. Just dont go over board with the flour, especially the rim, as it makes the crust look dull, and bitter tasting if browning.

[GarlicLover]

Ok, thx.

[jimbodeluxe]

There are many [pizza] schools of thought, so many recipes, and each has it's rules. I usually do sourdough and only sometimes do I use a very small amount of active yeast. But there are a few principles I subscribe to, no matter what the recipe calls for (so this is a matter of opinion):

* Autolyze... whether it is for pizza or bread, I add all the ingredients except salt (and usually just 75% of the flour), mix them together for a few minutes until it is a pretty consistent batter, and let it rest covered for 20 minutes. I believe this is one of the most important/critical steps and it is often not mentioned in recipes. After the autolyze, mix in the salt and start adding the flour. If you are mixing by hand, you can use some of your 25% reserve on the kneading table and the balance on your hands to keep the dough from sticking.   

* Oil .. I never put oil in my pizza dough. Oil is a way of keeping the dough from sticking to your hands and bowl but it is not, IMHO, a purist method and it negatively impacts the end product. That is just what I subscribe to. Use techniques to work the dough, not additives. The only oil I believe should be used is a thin coating applied with a paper towel on the container during the fermentation process.

* Fermentation ... warm (room temperature) fermentation is difficult to control. Slight variations in room temperature, yeast and other factors makes it difficult to have consistent results from one to the next batch. Cold fermentation takes longer of course but it is so much easier to control and it allows the bacteria that adds flavor (it is not retarded by cold temps, whereas the ones that make the dough rise slow down in colder temps) to do their thing. With sourdough, the fermentation process is a minimum of 24 hours but I have had good results with 5 days, which means I can make the dough on Sunday night and have a pizza party Friday night. I don't know how well that would work with active yeast.

Anyway, just a few thoughts.

Jimbo