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Offline Brewer

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Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« on: November 28, 2016, 10:16:18 PM »
Hello Everyone,

I have been trying to make Pizza at home for some time now.  I have had some great success and also have had some massive failures in my experiments.  There is a learning curve to this and I am really enjoying myself along the way.  It’s just getting better and better as time goes by.  I want to thank Peter, Tom and everyone else on this forum for helping us all be better Pizza makers.  I have no idea at this point of how much time I have spent exploring the forum.  It has to be hundreds and hundreds of hours getting deep into the archives and threads.  It’s kind of like peeling through a tremendous amount of onion layers.  I am really having the time of my life.  Thank you everybody for sharing your formulas, experiments, and ideas!

Lately I have been heavily influenced by the Sicilian topic of Detroit Style Pizzas.  Thank you Norma, TXCraig, Mitch, Hans, and so many others for lighting this fire.

A lady at Lloyds Pans told me of a recipe provided by the Detroit Style Pizza Company.  This is the video and recipe by Alejandro Ramon.  It’s pretty cool.  It shows on how to make a poolish and incorporate it into a dough that requires rests and folds through out the process.

https://aramon65.wordpress.com/2016/04/29/detroit-style-pizza/

I gave this recipe a shot the other night.  It was my first Detroit attempt.  I did not take super detailed notes along the way on account I wasn’t sure if it would turn out.  The reason being I used Alejandro’s volumetric measurements instead of his mass units.  I believe his mass units are off.

Peter stated that a cup of water should weigh 8.345 ounces with his practice to use 8.15 ounces on thread: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45651.msg457485#msg457485

Please correct me if I’m wrong:

Alejandro states in his preferment that 8 ounces of water = 227 g.

8 ounce does  = 226.796 grams, but that’s not 1 cup of water.

1 cup of water should weigh 8.345 ounce = 236.58 grams,
(or using Peter’s average  8.15 ounces = 231.05 grams)

For 2 -10” x 14” Steel Pans (2” deep) Alejandro’s preferment and recipe are:

Preferment:

•   Measured                           Weight           Grams          Ingredients
•   1 cup                                   8 oz.               227 g.           Water (RT)
•   1-1/2 cups + 2 Tbsp.           8 oz.               227 g.           KAAP
   1/4 tsp.                               1/4 tsp.           1/4 tsp.           Instant Yeast

Alejandro’s Final Dough recipe is:


•   Measured        Weight            Grams            Ingredients
•   All the preferment from above
•   1/2 tsp.             1/2 tsp.              1/2 tsp.           IDY
•   7/8 cup              7 oz.                 198 g.             Water
•   3 1/4 cups         14 oz.                397 g.            KAAP
1-3/4 tsp.          1/2 oz.               14 g.               Sea Salt (fine)

This evening I was trying to convert this recipe to baker’s percentages on my own, but the foodsim.toastguard.com link has been down for hours.  As of now I have stones in my path.

This morning when I woke up the foodsim link was working.  I was playing around with it and I found a discrepancy in values.  When I entered 3.25 cups of water converted to grams I got a different value than when I entered 3 cups of water in one entry and entered a ¼ cup in the other entry.  I am not sure what the proper procedure is in using the calculator.

Foodsim also stated that 1.5 cups + 2 T of KAAP should equal 202.88 grams in the preferment.   Alejandro states above to use 227 g of KAAP in the poolish.  This is also off.  I suppose I could do a triple measurement of every ingredient on a lab scale and take the average as Tom and Peter suggested in post https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45374.msg454329#msg454329

I also do not how to properly use the preferment pizza dough calculator and incorporate the results into the Deep-Dish Dough Calculation Tool for a final recipe.  Would I use the Preferment calculator alone since it has values for a desired preferment amount?  From there I could not get a pan size.  The deep dish calculator does not have a value for a poolish addition.  I’m at a crossroad with this one.

One of the reasons I did not take photos along the way was when I mixed the poolish into the final dough it was way more hydrated than what Alejandro was working with in his video.  It was almost un-kneedable.  It mostly stuck to my hands.  I had to use a bench scraper to keep scraping it off my hands and the board I was working on.  I admit it was frustrating in a good way, but at that point I thought I was doing something wrong, so I set out to fail with perfection.

One last thing:  I have no idea what the thickness factor or bowl residue compensation would be for this recipe.  I lost material along the way.

It was not a failure in the end!  Below are the photos my wife took.  They were the best 2 tasting Pizzas I have made so far.

Two more things after the last thing: 

1)  I used 6 in 1 crushed tomatoes (794 g.) slowly simmered for a half hour to reduce the water concentration to thicken it up.  In the beginning minus the oregano I added:

¼ t. of granulated garlic
¼ t. granulated onion
1 t. fine Baleine sea salt
1 T. Red Wine Vinegar – Alessi Tuscany
1 t. Lampong coarse ground Black Pepper from Indonesia- HOT!!
1 t. Tien Tsin Red Pepper flakes whorled in a Mr. Coffee Spice Grinder
1 t. Greek Oregano added during the last 5 minutes not to drive the aromatics off.

For those interested in premium spices, The Spice House out of Milwaukee and Chicago is a phenomenal outlet.  I have been using them for years. These folks sell an amazing European Basil (different from California) and Greek Oregano.  They are very serious and great to deal with. Outstanding!  Their Maharaja Style Curry Powder is carefully hand blended and stirred over two-thousand times!  Their chili powders are mixed by hand one-thousand-five-hundred times and triple sifted.  That tells you about their dedication. 
https://www.thespicehouse.com/stores/milwaukee-spice-store

2)  I bought a hand crank #12 stainless steel meat grinder specifically for making my own home made Italian Sausage for Pizza.  This was the first time I did it on a small scale with a 3 pound Pork Butt and it was a true game changer.  Up to this point I was buying Johnsonville and commercial brands of sausage.  Grinding my own I could control the amount of fat and salt in my sausage.  It really made the pie.  More sausage and less grease!  I did a 2 stage grind down to a 6 mm plate.  Some great recipes are here.
 
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37026.msg369214#msg369214

Finally here are some pictures of this experiment.

Can someone please help me to dial in this recipe to the correct formula for bakers percentages so we can convert it to different pie sizes and keep it consistent?  I am going to make a poolish tonight via volume so I can do it again tomorrow morning.

Again, thank you everyone for your serious knowledge, dedication and time.  You folks are awesome!!

Brewer

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2016, 10:00:26 AM »
Brewer,

You did a terrific job putting your post together. The pizzas look great.

As for modifying the recipe, unfortunately there is no easy way of doing it, and there will be a fair amount of paper and pencil and calculator work. Some members try to use the preferment dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html but that tool was designed for natural preferments, not for commercially leavened preferments. However, when the preferment contains only yeast along with the flour and water, as in your case, I have found a way to tweak the preferment dough calculating tool to produce the desired set of numbers.

If you would like, I can take a stab at converting your recipe to be able to use it in the preferment dough calculating tool. However, I suggest that the recipe be cut in half, for one piece of dough, and that the weights that were given for the recipe be used even if the water quantity is not exactly correct. The difference in water weights is not likely to have any noticeable effect on the finished pizza so I wouldn't worry about the difference in water weight. By using the numbers for one dough ball, and knowing the size of the pan used with the recipe, we should also be able to easily calculate the thickness factor. But after all is said and done, it will still be necessary to do some calculations using a calculator to adapt the recipe to use it for different pan sizes.

Peter

Offline Brewer

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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2016, 11:44:46 AM »
Peter,

Thank you so much!

It would be appreciated if you could take a stab at converting this recipe.  At this point in time with my Pizza experience it’s above my abilities.  I would really like to learn the pencil, paper, and calculator work behind it.  If you could please work out the formula and then show me how it’s done, I could retrace your steps.  It would be a great learning experience for me.

Brewer

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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2016, 01:16:17 PM »
Peter,

Thank you so much!

It would be appreciated if you could take a stab at converting this recipe.  At this point in time with my Pizza experience it’s above my abilities.  I would really like to learn the pencil, paper, and calculator work behind it.  If you could please work out the formula and then show me how it’s done, I could retrace your steps.  It would be a great learning experience for me.

Brewer
Brewer,

Here you go, using the preferment calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html, as modified as noted below:

Total Formula:
King Arthur All Purpose Flour (KAAP)(100%):
Water (68.0987%):
Sea Salt (2.2443%):
IDY (0.36215%):
Total (170.70515%):

Preferment/Poolish*:
King Arthur All Purpose Flour (KAAP):
Water:
Total:

Final Dough**:
King Arthur All Purpose Flour (KAAP):
Water:
Sea Salt:
IDY:
Preferment/Poolish:
Total:

311.9 g  |  11 oz | 0.69 lbs
212.4 g  |  7.49 oz | 0.47 lbs
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
532.43 g | 18.78 oz | 1.17 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
63.4 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs
63.4 g | 2.24 oz | 0.14 lbs
126.8 g | 4.47 oz | 0.28 lbs

 
248.5 g | 8.77 oz | 0.55 lbs
149 g | 5.26 oz | 0.33 lbs
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
126.8 g | 4.47 oz | 0.28 lbs
532.43 g | 18.78 oz | 1.17 lbs  | TF = N/A
* Add 1/8 teaspoon of IDY to the flour and water in the poolish so that the total weight for the poolish is 127.18 grams (126.8g + 0.377g)
** Subtract 1/8 teaspoon of IDY from the 3/8 teaspoon of IDY in the final dough so that the IDY in the final dough is 1/4 teaspoon
Note: The poolish is 40.6541% of the weight of the total formula flour (311.9 grams); the poolish's percent of water is 50%; no bowl residue compensation

There may be some slight differences in the numbers because we are using the tool in a bit different manner than when yeast (IDY) is added to the poolish, and there may be a bit of rounding. Also, I tried to keep the IDY in volume measurements as best I could to simplify matters. However, for conversion purposes, I used 0.10625 ounces per teaspoon of IDY. That is the same conversion factor used in the preferment dough calculating tool. As you will discover in due course, it is easy to make math errors when using numbers that go out several decimal places (the tool goes out to two decimal places, however).

For your information, the thickness factor for the recipe you used is 18.78/(10 x 14) = 0.134143. That represents the weight of the dough ball in ounces divided the area of the pan used to make the pizza.

You will also note that I did not use a bowl residue compensation. I typically use 1.5%. However, when you do that, the IDY numbers should be recomputed. However, for the small amounts of yeast that you are using, I would just stick to the volume measurements. Or you can just skip the bowl residue compensation. The preferment dough calculating tool cannot do the proper math because it was not designed for the use of commercial yeast in the preferment.

In my next post, I will tell you how I came up with the above numbers for the preferment dough calculating tool.

Peter

Offline Brewer

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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2016, 01:51:37 PM »
Peter,

All I can say is WOW!  This is fantastic!!  I seriously appreciate all of your time and effort with everything you do for the Forum.  Helping me with this is huge.  I cant wait to test it out using mass measurements on the bench scale.

I will look forward to reading how you came up with the figures down the road when you have time.

Thanks so much!!

-Brewer

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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 01:58:42 PM »
Brewer,

Here is how I did the calculations in the last post.

1. I divided the amounts of all of the ingredients in the recipe by two, to get the amounts for a single dough ball.

2. I took the amounts of flour (KAAP), water and IDY in the poolish and added them to the rest of the ingredients in the halved recipe. The totality of all of the ingredients is the Total Formula. To come up with the baker's percents for the Total Formula, I divided the total formula flour by the individual weights of all of the other ingredients. For all of the ingredients, I used grams. For purposes of the IDY, and as noted in my last post, I used 0.10625 ounces per teaspoon of IDY. For fractions of a teaspoon of IDY, as used in the recipe, I converted those fractions to grams in coming up with the Total Formula. Elsewhere, I tried to stick with the fractions of teaspoons of IDY to simplify matters. Once I calculated all of the baker's percents, I entered them into the preferment dough calculating tool.

3. Next, I entered the information on the poolish into the preferment dough calculating tool. I decided to calculate the percent of poolish as a percent of the total formula flour. That was 126.8/311.9 = 40.6541%. I could have used the other options, and the answers would have been the same. The multiple options exist because recipes often specify the percents relative to flour, water or final weight, and they can differ from one recipe to another. For the percent of water in the poolish, I used 50% since by definition a poolish has equal amounts of flour and water, by weight.

5. Once all of the numbers were entered into the preferment dough calculating tool, the tool cranked out all of the numbers as shown in my last post. To give the ingredients a bit of character, I noted that the flour is KAAP and that Sea Salt was used.

In my next post, I will discuss how to modify the quantities of ingredients for use with other size pans. This entails the use of the thickness factor. But keep in mind that the thickness factor and all of the baker's percents and the information on the poolish remain the same and are entered as such in the preferment dough calculating tool. What will change is the shape and size of pan. And that pan need not be rectangular. It can be round, although the so-called Detroit style pizzas are rectangular or square.

Peter


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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 02:21:31 PM »
Brewer,

For this post, let us assume that you want to make a Detroit-style pizza using an 8" x 10" pan. That is a standard size pan for the Detroit style pizza. That size pan is often called a "square", among both professionals and amateurs alike, even though it is not square but rather rectangular. This can be taken as an indictment of the teaching of math to students in our schools, LOL.

Let us also assume that you want to make three dough balls.

What we do is enter the thickness factor into the preferment dough calculating tool, along with all of the bakers percents and the information on the poolish. Once you enter the thickness factor (0.134143) into the preferment dough calculating tool, you will enter the number of dough balls, and you will be asked what shape of pizza you what to make and select from Round or Rectangular. For the Rectangular, you enter the dimensions of the pan (in our example, 8 x 10). Once all of the numbers are in the tool, this is what you will get:

Total Formula:
King Arthur All Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (68.0987%):
Sea Salt (2.2443%):
IDY (0.36215%):
Total (170.70515%):
Single Ball:

Preferment/Poolish:
King Arthur All Purpose Flour (KAAP):
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
King Arthur All Purpose Flour(KAAP):
Water:
Sea Salt:
IDY:
Preferment/Poolish:
Total:

534.67 g  |  18.86 oz | 1.18 lbs
364.1 g  |  12.84 oz | 0.8 lbs
12 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.15 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
1.94 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
912.71 g | 32.19 oz | 2.01 lbs | TF = 0.134143
304.24 g | 10.73 oz | 0.67 lbs
 
 
108.68 g | 3.83 oz | 0.24 lbs
108.68 g | 3.83 oz | 0.24 lbs
217.37 g | 7.67 oz | 0.48 lbs

 
425.99 g | 15.03 oz | 0.94 lbs
255.42 g | 9.01 oz | 0.56 lbs
12 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.15 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
1.94 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
217.37 g | 7.67 oz | 0.48 lbs
912.71 g | 32.19 oz | 2.01 lbs  | TF = 0.134143
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Where matters get a bit tricky is that you have to apportion the total amount of IDY in the Total Formula between the poolish and the Final Dough, as we did in the first formulation I posted and denoted by the asterisks. I will leave that exercise to you should you wish to try out your math skills.

And that, my friend, is the rest of the story.

Peter

Offline jkb

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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 06:03:27 PM »
Thank you Paul.

Offline Brewer

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Re: Detroit Style Attempt with Questions
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2016, 06:13:16 PM »
Peter,

You are a wizard.  Thank you again for your time and energy on this.  It is hugely appreciated.  I will work on this exercise and test my math skills to see if I'm on target.

I am inspired and can't wait to give this recipe many more tries!

-Brewer