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Author Topic: Autolysis  (Read 765 times)

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Offline Icelandr

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2018, 04:32:15 PM »
I believe a while back that Craig said, with experience comes more answers than questions, or something of that nature. You are obviously interested, knowledgeable, keen and full of questions. Take that enthusiasm and work like hell, try everything you can, the worst that can happen is it takes time but you get to eat pizza, the goal is to create and eat Great Pizza. Post results, fewer questions so the community members can see the results of your trials and triumphs and help, suggest or praise your progress. There are lots of threads from people with ovens of all sorts, high temperature is a challenge, but look what Omid did with a $99 gas oven and a ton of ingenuity. Enjoy the pursuit. Branch out. Create.

Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2018, 07:40:47 PM »
My previous reply has some major points

Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2018, 10:04:26 PM »
So scientifically/ biologically speaking, what is the difference between poolish, biga, and sourdough starter/ mother dough/ criscito? I think they are all the same since they all consist of just water, yeast, and flour. If the poolish/ biga really does strenghten gluten and give better flavor (because there is not salt to inhibit activity), then why is only a small amount used in the final dough? Isn’t that counter productive? You developed all the gluten in the poolish/ biga, why not use that as a majority of the final dough since it has more flavor/ gluten/ personality? That being said, I did a method (which I call Pizzaman method haha) where the majority of the final dough is poolish (75% of the final dough) and the remaining 25% is newly added KA bread flour with salt. This final “seasoning of the mother dough (which it technically is)” helps give maximum flavor after all of the gluten/ yeast/ bacteria has developed when the salt wasn’t present. So technically speaking, wouldn’t you be able to take your sourdough starter (which consists of the same ingredients as the poolish and biga) and “season” it with salt and more flour to become a pizza? I think so.

Offline StateofMind

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2018, 11:10:19 PM »
I’m a big fan of a modified autolyse as described by My friend John Arena in this article https://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/our-experts/knead-know-auto-pilot/

Since I switched to this method last year I feel like my dough has vastly improved. Im developing flavor quicker and also getting a more open crumb. It also cuts down on overall mixing time.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2018, 11:12:52 AM »
I’m a big fan of a modified autolyse as described by My friend John Arena in this article https://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/our-experts/knead-know-auto-pilot/

Since I switched to this method last year I feel like my dough has vastly improved. Im developing flavor quicker and also getting a more open crumb. It also cuts down on overall mixing time.
Lars,

In your case, can you tell us if you are using commercial yeast or a natural leavening agent, and also the duration of the rest period you are using?

With respect to John's use of the expression "modified autolyse", I am not sure that Prof. Calvel, were he alive today, would have approved of such an expression. I have Prof. Calvel's book, The Taste of Bread, and this morning I looked at every page listed in the index where the term autolysis was mentioned. I was looking for any mention of incorporating yeast, in any form, in the dough during the rest period. I could not find any such mention, although as I have mentioned before it was reported elsewhere that he would allow for the incorporation of yeast in the autolysed dough if it did not acidify the dough during the rest period. The reason for the exclusion of yeast was that the acidification of the dough once yeast fermentation started would impede the linkages between the starch, gluten and water and thereby impede the extensibility of the dough (footnotes, page 91). So he might have argued that you either had autolysis or you didn't, and using the expression "modified autolysis" would not be appropriate when yeast added to the dough acidifies it.

None of this is to suggest that John, who confesses that he does not always follow the rules, or anyone else for that matter, should not add yeast to the dough during the autolysis rest period, including yeast that acidifies the dough, if doing so accrues to improvement in the finished product. It basically comes down to accurately characterizing the procedure itself or coining a new expression that does not contain the word autolyse or autolysis. I might add that Prof. Calvel was not bashful about adding all kinds of things to the dough during the autolysis rest period. For example, for his croissant dough recipe he includes flour, water, sugar, malt extract, milk powder, butter, and ascorbic acid. But no yeast and no salt.

Peter

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Offline StateofMind

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2018, 11:58:38 AM »

Lars,

In your case, can you tell us if you are using commercial yeast or a natural leavening agent, and also the duration of the rest period you are using?

With respect to John's use of the expression "modified autolyse", I am not sure that Prof. Calvel, were he alive today, would have approved of such an expression. I have Prof. Calvel's book, The Taste of Bread, and this morning I looked at every page listed in the index where the term autolysis was mentioned. I was looking for any mention of incorporating yeast, in any form, in the dough during the rest period. I could not find any such mention, although as I have mentioned before it was reported elsewhere that he would allow for the incorporation of yeast in the autolysed dough if it did not acidify the dough during the rest period. The reason for the exclusion of yeast was that the acidification of the dough once yeast fermentation started would impede the linkages between the starch, gluten and water and thereby impede the extensibility of the dough (footnotes, page 91). So he might have argued that you either had autolysis or you didn't, and using the expression "modified autolysis" would not be appropriate when yeast added to the dough acidifies it.

None of this is to suggest that John, who confesses that he does not always follow the rules, or anyone else for that matter, should not add yeast to the dough during the autolysis rest period, including yeast that acidifies the dough, if doing so accrues to improvement in the finished product. It basically comes down to accurately characterizing the procedure itself or coining a new expression that does not contain the word autolyse or autolysis. I might add that Prof. Calvel was not bashful about adding all kinds of things to the dough during the autolysis rest period. For example, for his croissant dough recipe he includes flour, water, sugar, malt extract, milk powder, butter, and ascorbic acid. But no yeast and no salt.

Peter

John and I both enjoying “breaking the rules” and challenging the established dogma of the pizza world. Some of the pizza/dough makers I most admire are also students of John.
Maybe we should call it the “Arena” or “Pizza Sensei” method.
 I use fresh yeast at .4-.5% when expressed in bakers percentage. I also include ldmp in the “autolyse”. The salt and olive oil are added later.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2018, 03:35:54 PM »
Lars,

I like your renaming ideas ;D. And it is always refreshing to see our members trying new things.

It is out of respect for what Prof. Calvel (see the Calvel entry in the forum’s Pizza Glossary at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_c) contributed to the art of bread baking that I try to keep people straight on the nomenclature. Often I will see people refer to any rest period as an autolyse rest period. And some equate a riposo, which is a rest period introduced at the end of making a dough (with everything in it), to an autolyse rest period. I usually try to correct them without coming across as being too dictatorial.

Peter

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2018, 05:16:21 PM »
Here is a method, that is a little different.
http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/tangzhong-method-for-pizza-dough

Offline sodface

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2018, 05:30:10 PM »
Here is a method, that is a little different.
http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/tangzhong-method-for-pizza-dough

I tried the tangzhong method on the last batch of basic white bread dough I made.  I made all the dough into rolls and promptly gave them away so I'm not sure if the rolls stayed moister/softer longer or not.  I did eat a couple the same day I made them and they did seem softer and more pillowy though maybe just my imagination.  The easy to remember reference I found was to use 5% of the flour weight, multiply that by 5 and use that weight of liquid (subtract from the total liquid) to make the roux.
Carl

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2018, 05:41:45 PM »
I tried the tangzhong method on the last batch of basic white bread dough I made.

Here is my try at tangzhing.
https://goodcookingfortheheartandsoul.blogspot.com/2017/08/100-whiole-grain-rye-tang-zhong-method.html

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Offline nick57

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Re: Autolysis
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2018, 08:21:10 PM »
 I was taught that you mix the all the flour and water the recipe calls for...which may be wrong? Mix till the flour and water are just incorporated and then let rest covered for 20 minutes or so. After that, add the rest of the recipe ingredients in order the recipe calls for and mix till you get the dough to the state you are looking for. I sort of do a short autolyse on some of my pies, usually for about 5 minutes just to help hydrate the dough. Another thing you can do to help in hydration is to sift the flour before mixing. you can still do a autolyse if you are using a biga or a poolish. I can't really tell a difference when doing a autolyse for most pizza recipes, but doing a biga or poolish helps with the texture and flavor profile of the crust. I do a poolish for most of my pies and really like the difference it makes in the finished crust.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2018, 08:23:11 PM by nick57 »

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