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Author Topic: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast  (Read 85366 times)

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Offline TimEggers

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Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« on: August 28, 2005, 03:34:47 PM »
A no brainer for you advanced guys but I have to ask a simple question.† What is better Fast Active Fleischmann's dry yeast or SAF Instant yeast?

I did a search (so I wouldn't have to post this simple question) and didn't really find a clear and cut answer.† I have heard that SAF is far better for flavor and performance however the only yeast I have immediate access too is the Fleischmann in the pouches or in jars.† I could mail order the SAF as I plan to order KASLHGF soon.† Should I convert to the SAF?† Is it really that much better?† Will I notice a difference?† I want the best pizza possible.† Thank you for your help!

Offline Snowman

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2005, 06:32:15 PM »
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm#_Toc533730300

ADY has to be mixed with water to rehydrate, IDY is often mixed with the dry ingredients.  The biggest thing to account for in using the different yeasts is the amount required based upon type used.  ADY, IDY, fresh, compressed, etc all have different "strengths", so where one might need 1 ounce, one needs 3/4 ounce to perform the same "function".  At least that's what I've garnered.

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040606220400/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 02:25:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline TimEggers

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2005, 06:46:05 PM »
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm#_Toc533730300

ADY has to be mixed with water to rehydrate, IDY is often mixed with the dry ingredients.  The biggest thing to account for in using the different yeasts is the amount required based upon type used.  ADY, IDY, fresh, compressed, etc all have different "strengths", so where one might need 1 ounce, one needs 3/4 ounce to perform the same "function".  At least that's what I've garnered.

Thank you Snowman for your response.† I have reviewed that information previously and suppose perhaps I have poorly phrased my question above.† I am curious what others (who I consider more advanced in pizza making than I) prefer and why they like it.† Some reassurances from those folks would go a long way with me either way.† I have yet to try SAF instant yeast and simply wonder if I am missing out on something.

I also know that there is a big difference between a cup of Folgers coffee and a fresh pot of fresh roasted Kenya AA Auction Lot 661 -Mbaranga.† Alas that is a whole other discussion...

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2005, 07:49:16 PM »
Tim,

This is one of those cases where the answer is far simpler than the explanation. As long as you follow the use instructions on the packets/bottles, and you make any necessary conversions from, say, active to instant (as Snowman has correctly pointed out), you should be able to use either of the two brands of yeast you mentioned in your dough recipes. I highly doubt that you will be able to detect a difference in the finished product. There may be other reasons to choose one over the other, but it will not be because of one producing a better tasting crust than the other. AIB (the American Institute of Baking) has already established through comparison testing that there is no detectable difference between the three different types of yeast (fresh, ADY and IDY). (No doubt, users of fresh yeast are likely to contest these results).

Both Fleischmann's and SAF sell yeast products marketed to the consumer and professional end user. The products, however, are not identical. The yeast strains are different. Both Fleischmann's and SAF would prefer that you buy the yeast in the supermarkets in 1/4-oz. packets and small bottles, rather than buying a pound of it for about $5 from King Arthur or any other source. It's far more profitable to them. So, Tim, if you plan to buy other items from KA, such as the KASL, I would add either the SAF IDY (SAF Red) or Fleischmann's IDY to your list. The SAF IDY is a bit more expensive than the Fleischmann's IDY at KA, but I doubt that you would be able to tell the difference between the two brands in any taste test. In the past, many of our members have been able to find the pound-sized bags at even better prices at the big-box stores like Sam's and Costco's. I don't know whether they are viable sources at the moment.

The only yeast products I personally avoid for pizza dough making is the "fast-rise" yeasts such as sold by Fleischmann's under the Rapid-Rise brand name and by Red Star (which is owned by SAF) under the Quick-Rise brand name. Both of these are targeted to the consumer end user and are intended primarily for use in one-rise, fast-fermenting yeasted dough products, not doughs intended for long fermentation times. For example, virtually all the pizza dough recipes on the websites for both companies call for very short rise times, under 30 minutes in most cases, and as little as 15 minutes in many.

It took me a few phone calls and several emails to get Fleischmann's and SAF (Red Star) to tell me whether their fast-rise yeasts are the same as the IDYs marketed to professionals (they aren't). They are very secretive about their products and their technical functionalities and capabilities, and getting them to answer specific questions is like pulling teeth, and they will never tell you not to use any of their products for any application. And they will never tell you to buy the product intended for professionals, knowing full well that you could throw away most of the bag and still come out ahead. I don't have any doubt about whether the fast-rise yeasts will work with pizza dough. They will. I just don't know, and haven't been able to get anyone to convince me, that they are better than the yeasts that are specifically marketed to professionals, and available at much lower cost on a per unit basis. Until that proof comes along, I will stick to my SAF Red or one of the other SAF products (the Gourmet and SAF Active Dry) I regularly use.

Peter

Offline TimEggers

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2005, 08:41:10 PM »
Peter,

Thank you very much for the very informative response!† I hung on every word!† I hate to say this but the yeast I am using and was talking about above is the Rapid-Rise brand (now that I look closer at the bottle).

I will defiantly follow your advice and include yeast with my KASL order.† Thank you very much again.

Happy Eating,
Tim

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Offline cocoabean

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 05:46:17 PM »
Peter,

† †I was at GFS today and saw a pound of SAF IDY for 1.99 USD.† IIRC, it was a white bag with blue lettering, etc.† Is that different than the red you spoke of and if so, what might those be?† Was going to buy it once my current jar of store bought is gone.

Thanks.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 06:19:22 PM »
cocoabean,

The SAF Red instant dry yeast (IDY) comes in a bag that is white with red lettering and graphics. There is a Red Star IDY that comes in a blue bag. Red Star is affiliated with SAF. You may have seen the Fleischmann's IDY. From the photos I have seen online, the Fleischmann's IDY looks like it comes in a silver-colored bag with blue lettering. If you are in doubt, I'm sure that if you ask at GFS, they will be able to set you straight. Any one of the three brands mentioned above will meet your needs.

Peter


Offline Perk

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 07:24:39 PM »
I use  Fleischmann's Yeast in a packet, not the Rapid Rise but the regular one.
Why? Because that is what I've used for 15+ years and It has giving me what I want.

What I don't want is a yeast taste, Beer taste or any taste that is to fermented.
That is why I only like my dough to rise over night.

I just made a pizza with my dough but it had a 3 day rise, and I thought it sucked because I could taste the yeast.
Many people may like it a yeast taste, I don't.

It really depends on your taste, don't let other taste for you, just try things out.

-Dave
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Offline Hi Gluten

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 10:09:18 PM »
I buy Fleischmann's IDY in bulk. Two 1lb bags from Sam's Club. The yeast is very consistant, if not amazing in its performance.

A funny but true story. Several years ago, I bought a two pack and gave one pound package to my mom. A month ago I ran out of yeast and decided to raid my mom's fridge for some. I actually found the package I gave her several years ago 3/4 empty. It was only held close by a clothes pin. As a joke, I decided to try and see if the yeast would proof (call it morbid curiosity). IT DID! Since then, I have made over dozen pizzas, several breads, a few dozen Kaiser rolls and still have yeast to spare. I did double the amount per recipe.

THE YEAST EXPIRED 5 YEARS AGO!!!

I have yet to see anything perform this well after so much time. Truly amazing!† :o† : :pizza::o

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2006, 08:06:54 AM »
Perk,

People often use the term "yeasty taste" to refer to different things in a crust. However, most often the finger is pointed to the use of excessive amounts of yeast for producing a "yeasty" flavor. After three days of fermentation, especially with fairly large amounts of sugar in the dough to feed the yeast, you will get more of just about everything--carbon dioxide, yeast detritus (yeast waste), organic acids, aldehydes, esters, etc. The alcohol will burn off during baking but it will add a flavor component to the crust. The other compounds will also contribute to the flavor of the crust. Individually or collectively, these components are often described as "yeasty" by different individuals.

Tom Lehmann recommends that the upper limit for ADY for most pizza doughs not exceed 0.75%. When I examined your dough recipe recently, I estimate that your usage of ADY was around 1%. Tom Lehmann also points out that if the salt levels are below 1.5%, then that can also result in excessive yeast activity since salt acts as a regulator of yeast activity. When I examined your dough recipe, I estimated that the salt level was at around 0.75%. Since you are an active pizza maker and make your dough frequently, you might want to experiment with using less yeast and more salt if you would like the dough to go out to say, three days. By so doing, you should still get all the desirable flavor-enhancing byproducts of fermentation but maybe not the "yeasty" flavors.

Peter

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Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2006, 03:33:27 PM »
http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/04_Dough_ingredients/04_dough_ingredients.htm#_Toc533730300

ADY has to be mixed with water to rehydrate, IDY is often mixed with the dry ingredients.  The biggest thing to account for in using the different yeasts is the amount required based upon type used.  ADY, IDY, fresh, compressed, etc all have different "strengths", so where one might need 1 ounce, one needs 3/4 ounce to perform the same "function".  At least that's what I've garnered.

I think this may be the problem I have encountered (see my post in the same thread); in short, I recently ran out of from what I am guessing was Red Star and tried Fleischman's Bread Machine Active dry yeast and in doing so, lost great flavor in my crust.
My question is, is there a thread or some other source where you might have a comparison of what kind of proportions you need of each to equate to the other?  The previous ADY was much stronger than my current.  Clearly, I have to add more...but I don't want to overkill the crust with yeast either.  Is doubling the current yeast amount too much? 

It might help if you knew what I went from to my current Fleischman's ADY.  I am not entirely sure myself, but I believe it might have been red star...it had white wrapping and red font i think; i also think it had a red star on it.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2006, 05:17:15 PM »
ihavezippers,

I have not seen the Fleischmannís yeast products lately but I believe the Fleischmannís bread machine yeast is an instant dry yeast (IDY).  That is what the Fleischmannís website says at http://www.breadworld.com/sciencehistory/yeast.asp. As you will see at that site, Fleischmannís has the following consumer yeast products: a fresh yeast (the kind in the small cubes in the supermarket), Active Dry Yeast, Rapid-Rise Yeast, and Bread Machine Yeast (IDY). The Rapid Rise yeast is a highly active IDY.

The Red Star consumer yeast products, described at http://www.redstaryeast.com/products.html, include: Red Star fresh yeast (similar to the Fleischmannís fresh yeast), Active Dry Yeast, Quick Rise Yeast (similar to the Fleischmannís Rapid Rise yeast), and Bread Machine Yeast. The Bread Machine Yeast is not described as being an instant dry yeast but its ingredient listing suggests that it is (by the addition of ascorbic acid). From your description, it appears that what you may have been using is the Red Star Active Dry Yeast.

You didnít mention SAF, which is affiliated with Red Star and referenced in this thread, but their consumer yeast products include: SAF Bread Machine Yeast (which appears to be an instant dry yeast, even though not described as such), Traditional Active Dry Perfect Rise Yeast (an active dry yeast), and Gourmet Perfect Rise Yeast. The Gourmet Perfect Rise Yeast is intended to be used in all recipes, no matter what form of yeast is called for. For details of all these yeast products, see http://www.safyeast.com/catalog.html

The reason I have presented the above comparative analysis is to point out the confusion that exists in using the different brands of yeast. You will not find a comparison between one companyís yeast products and those of its competitors, nor are you likely to get an answer if you request it from the yeast producers. For usage amounts, you will have to follow the instructions on the package or bottle of each product. But for general recipe purposes, I would treat all of the brands of active dry yeast products as being essentially the same. I think it is safe to treat the different brands of bread machine yeasts as being essentially the same also, and use them as you would an instant dry yeast.

I would treat the Rapid Rise and Quick Rise products as being supercharged instant dry yeasts, and use them where it is desired to have a very fast rise time. These yeasts are usually used where it is desired to have only a single rise of the dough. They can be used for pizza dough, but if you look at the pizza dough recipes at the websites of the yeast producers you will find that the doughs are almost all made within an hour. When I last looked, I couldnít find any recipes that called for long, cold fermentation of doughs. I personally donít use these products for making pizza dough. I use the conventional instant dry yeast products. And, on this score, I would suggest that you get the forms of instant dry yeast that are sold to professionals and available in one pound bags. Both SAF and Fleischmannís sell such products, and it is possible that Red Star does also. The brand I use is the SAF Red instant dry yeast. If you prefer, you can get active dry yeasts in one-pound bags also.

You are correct that to substitute one form of yeast for another in a recipe you have to do some conversions of quantities. If I had to guess, I would say that you substituted a Fleischmannís bread machine yeast (IDY) for the Red Star active dry yeast (ADY). Itís quite possible that you even used the two yeasts in the same manner and, if so, that may have affected the results you got. Most yeast packets and bottles usually specify the equivalency amounts for cake yeast, active dry yeast and instant dry yeast and instructons on how to activate them for different applications. However, if you would like to have the conversion math taken off of your hands, you might take a look at the table presented at http://www.theartisan.net/MainCommFrm.htm (click on Yeast Conversions at the bottom of the left navigation panel).

Good luck.

Peter

EDIT (11/6/14): For a Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative breadworld.com link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20001027222616/http://www.breadworld.com/sciencehistory/yeast.asp; for a similar replacement link for the inoperative safyeast.com link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20030713130353/http://safyeast.com/catalog.html

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2006, 06:32:06 PM »
So is there anyway I can use more of the IDY to equivicate the ADY potency?† After I posted my question, I thought it was on this board that I found a post where someone gave a conversion of 1 ADY teaspoon = 1.5 IDY teaspoon.† I'm not so sure that is scientifically accurate (the numbers seem a little rounded), but it seems logical that I could get the same taste of the ADY with the IDY if I added more?

Or are you saying that I will never get that taste?† You said the IDY's aren't meant for long-term fermentation...maybe the taste I liked so much in the ADY was a result of this?

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2006, 07:09:27 PM »
So is there anyway I can use more of the IDY to equivicate the ADY potency?† After I posted my question, I thought it was on this board that I found a post where someone gave a conversion of 1 ADY teaspoon = 1.5 IDY teaspoon.† I'm not so sure that is scientifically accurate (the numbers seem a little rounded), but it seems logical that I could get the same taste of the ADY with the IDY if I added more?

I'm sure Pete-zza will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've got your numbers backwards. Everything I've read leads me to believe that IDY is more potent than ADY, so you would use LESS IDY to get the equivalent leavening power of ADY. Fermipan, for example, recommends using 2 tsp. IDY in place 1 Tbs ADY.

On the taste issue, I'm under the impression that IDY and ADY are different yeast strains. That may, in small part, account for the difference in taste, though I suspect the difference in taste has more to do with the fermentation rate than yeast strain per se.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2006, 07:54:10 PM »
ihavezippers,

I believe that everything that goddabedapan has said is correct, except I believe he may have inadvertently reversed the Fermipan numbers. The table I linked you to is technically more precise than what the yeast producers usually recommend, but not in a particularly significant way. The yeast producers on their yeast packets say that 2 1/4 t. of ADY is equivalent to 1 1/2 t. IDY. They are talking about leavening power, not taste effects. So, to convert 1 t. of ADY to IDY, the conversion ratio is 1.5/2.25, or 0.67 t. IDY. To convert 1 t. of IDY to ADY, the conversion ratio is the reverse, 2.25/1.5, or 1.5 t. ADY. I tend to doubt that you could tell the difference between the two kinds of yeasts in the finished crust.

I think you misunderstood what I said about long fermentation times. The standard IDY products are fine for long fermentations. It's the Rapid Rise and Quick Rise strains of very active yeasts that I was referring to as being supercharged. According to Fleischmann's, the Rapid Rise yeast reduces the rising time by 50%. I have had exchanges with Fleischmann's and, as best I can tell, the Rapid Rise yeast is a special strain and it's not the same as the IDY yeast products sold to professional bakers. In the absence of crystal clarity from Fleischmann's and Red Star (with whom I also had exchanges), I decided to go with the same IDY yeast products sold to professional bakers. That way I don't have to worry whether the fermentation process will be speeded up more than I would like when cold fermenting my doughs.

Peter

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Offline RockyMarciano

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2006, 10:07:34 PM »
I agree with you petezza, I usually just use regular active dry fleishcmanns, and it works WAY better than the fast acting 50% shorter rise time versions.  Red star yeast sucks, i haven't found and IDY, but the fast acting stuff in my expierence is crap.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2006, 07:27:10 AM »
Rocky,

I haven't used the Fleischmann's Rapid Rise yeast in a very long time. However, I am sure it will work. I would just use less of it and also use colder water. That would allow me to stretch out the fermentation time. It's not the yeast's fault. It does only what it is designed to do.

Further to the point I was trying to make in my earlier post, if you look at all the pizza recipes posted at the Fleischmann's website, at http://www.breadworld.com/Search/query.asp, you will not see any (at least I couldn't find one) that relies on long fermentation times, either at room temperature or in the refrigerator. This leads me to believe that Fleischmann's markets the Rapid Rise yeast to homemakers who have little time to make pizzas. I have used the Rapid Rise yeast before to make pizza dough, and the resultant crust had little flavor, poor coloration, and had the texture of cardboard. With the right toppings, sauces and cheeses, maybe the average person won't notice and will find the pizzas tasty. But the crusts won't bear any resemblance to crusts made from doughs (particularly those with small amounts of yeast) that have been subjected to long fermentation times.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 15, 2006, 08:42:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline gottabedapan

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2006, 10:31:16 AM »
I'm sure Pete-zza will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've got your numbers backwards. Everything I've read leads me to believe that IDY is more potent than ADY, so you would use LESS IDY to get the equivalent leavening power of ADY. Fermipan, for example, recommends using 2 tsp. IDY in place 1 Tbs ADY.

ihavezippers,

I believe that everything that goddabedapan has said is correct, except I believe he may have inadvertently reversed the Fermipan numbers. The table I linked you to is technically more precise than what the yeast producers usually recommend, but not in a particularly significant way. The yeast producers on their yeast packets say that 2 1/4 t. of ADY is equivalent to 1 1/2 t. IDY. They are talking about leavening power, not taste effects. So, to convert 1 t. of ADY to IDY, the conversion ratio is 1.5/2.25, or 0.67 t. IDY. To convert 1 t. of IDY to ADY, the conversion ratio is the reverse, 2.25/1.5, or 1.5 t. ADY. I tend to doubt that you could tell the difference between the two kinds of yeasts in the finished crust.

Um ... if 1 tsp. IDY = 1.5 tsp. ADY, doesn't 2 tsp. IDY = 1 Tbs (= 3 tsp) ADY?† :o

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2006, 11:12:23 AM »
gottabedapan,

I'm sorry. You are correct. I misread 2 teaspoons for 1 teaspoon, not 1 tablespoon. Now I agree with everything you said ;D.

Peter

Offline ihavezippers

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Re: Fast Active Fleischmanns vs. SAF Instant Yeast
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2006, 01:51:49 PM »
So Petezza and others,
you are using the SAF Instant yeast?  Not fast-rise or active dry, but instant...I believe it comes in a bag with blue font?

Does this yeast require proofing?  I'm not entirely sure if I know what proofing is, but what I mean is do you need to let the yeast sit in water 100-110 degrees farenheit before mixing with the dough?

My cashncarry carries SAF instant and Red Star ADY.  I bought the Red Star because I had earlier had problems with an instant yeast (the Fleishmann's Bread Machine, which we have already determined is a "rapid rise").  Since buying the Red Star, I've had mixed results.  Early on, I didn't realize I had to proof the yeast, and so it came out tasting carboardish.  Since learning of proofing, I get mixed results...but this last week for instance, my dough hardly expanded at all and was not compliant with stretching to fit on the pan.

So, I am considering the SAF.  Just want to be sure I don't have to proof it.
Thanks as always.

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