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Author Topic: Leoparding on the crust?  (Read 1098 times)

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Offline cnascime

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Leoparding on the crust?
« on: December 20, 2016, 01:52:40 PM »
Hi Guys,

I'm doing some research about opening a Neapolitan style delivery pizzeria, but I cannot afford a wood fired oven at the moment. What are the requirements for having a nice neapolitan pizza with black spots on the crust? I'm thinking about getting a gas or electrical industrial oven that can reach up to 850 degrees in the stone and also in the dome. I believe the final product is a result of the dough recipe used + high temperature, am I right? Or are there any other variables that I can't replicate using this type of oven?

By the way, I will be using the AVPN dough recipe, with the Caputo 00 Flour.

Thank you!

Offline italdream

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 03:35:40 PM »
HI, you can find a lot of info just searching on this forum.

I would start from these stickies:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.0
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20479.0

The leoparding is not the only factor (and for some not a factor at all), for a good Neapolitan.

If my memory does not fail me, a wood-fired oven is part of the disciplinare (production standard), but you can achieve Neapolitan style also with a gas oven.

Requirements are the high temp 850+; a good flour that operates well at those temperatures (Caputo, or a also a mix), higher hydration (search for dough generator), an oven with a good heat balance (you want to avoid overcharred bottom for example) and if you want to be a purist a sourdough fermentation, preferably at room temperature (this last requirement is still a matter of debate).

I would also stress the importance of ingredients. Stay away from pre-grated mozzarella, buy real mozzarella. Also buffalo mozz is not a requirement and actually can make it too wet.

In sum, there is less emphasis lately on the requirement to use wood as fuel (speaking from my experience, I bought a residential Pizza Party that can be used both with gas and wood, and plan to compare the results soon). Anyway, when Sorbillo opened La Casa Della Pizza a few years ago, he only installed a gas oven. This would have been considered heresy until only a few years earlier: http://www.scattidigusto.it/2012/12/10/chiedersi-se-il-forno-a-gas-e-la-nuova-casa-della-pizza-napoletana

So if gas is your only option at the moment, go with it, so long as the other parameters are met.


« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 03:38:43 PM by italdream »
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Offline parodius4

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2016, 04:20:22 PM »
Hello,
also see the pictures and the video from this forum site for reference if you will:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40885.250

Baked in a p134 or p150 electric oven. Similar ovens can be used commercially I assume.

For me these are (among many others of course) very good examples how very close you can get with the right setup even in electric ovens.

Judging by the pictures alone I am quite certain no one can distinguish them from wood oven ones.
When the dough and oven conditions are right  it will react this way.

Greetings

Offline Ogwoodfire

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2016, 10:14:31 PM »
In all honesty a VPN recipe will not yield you significant spotting on the pizzas. The biggest variables for leapording are fermentation time, time in balls and oven temperature and many other factors play in as well. The VPN recipe is not fermented enough or does it allow enough time in balls for very good pizza or leapording if that's what your after. Also Iam curious what type of gas or electric oven you can buy for less than a modular wood fired oven or even a mobile Neapolitan oven for that matter. There are some good electric options out there but they come with flaws or a big price tag if you plan on doing reasonable volume. Also there are ventilation requirements to consider which will add up, you may be better off with a wood oven depending on your local building codes.

Offline cnascime

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 02:30:14 PM »
Thank you all for the answers! I am reading this forum daily and it has really detailed and good information! I guess I could stick with the gas or electric industrial oven then.

In all honesty a VPN recipe will not yield you significant spotting on the pizzas. The biggest variables for leapording are fermentation time, time in balls and oven temperature and many other factors play in as well. The VPN recipe is not fermented enough or does it allow enough time in balls for very good pizza or leapording if that's what your after. Also Iam curious what type of gas or electric oven you can buy for less than a modular wood fired oven or even a mobile Neapolitan oven for that matter. There are some good electric options out there but they come with flaws or a big price tag if you plan on doing reasonable volume. Also there are ventilation requirements to consider which will add up, you may be better off with a wood oven depending on your local building codes.

Oh thanks for that info! I did found strange that the VPN recipe had low fermentation compared to the ones in the forum. You would think that the VPN recipe should be the "optimal" recipe, since it seems to be such a serious and traditional organization right? Well I guess I'll stick to the ones in the forum. :)

As for the WFO, I am not completely throwing the possibily of buying one out. Though the prices of a good gas oven and a WFO don't seem to differ that much, the costs for wood, cleaning, stocking wood (in a not so big workplace to begin with) and paying a better pizzaoiolo (since it's harder to bake a pizza in a WFO than a gas one) could make a WFO more expensive and harder to work than a gas one. I could be wrong though. Have any thoughts? Best regards!

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Offline Ogwoodfire

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2016, 12:33:30 AM »
From what I make of the VPN its simply a guide to make Neapolitan pizza not necessairly good Neapolitan pizza. It's useful but many people are doing above and beyond what is required.
In regards to the wood vs. gas/electric oven I think the cost for wood will be fairly comparable to your utility bills if not less with wood. The only way to make good Neapolitan pizza is with high btu, wood being the easiest. Yes it will take more skill to operate a wood oven but pizza is typically only as good as the chef behind it and experience and skill typically comes at a price. With that in mind it may take 2 unskilled workers to do what one passionate and skilled pizzaiolo can do in terms of volume. This is often a case of "you get what you pay for".

Take care,
Jay

Offline Soulboy

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2016, 03:32:32 PM »
The quest for leoparding is a very American concept to me... not necessarily true Neapolitan...
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Offline ebpizza

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2016, 08:32:07 AM »
 ^^^
Leoparding does seem to be an American fascination.

Offline schold

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2016, 09:50:19 AM »
It's a phase that most people passionate about pizza seem to go through. Some continue to hunt the spots, and when done right, it does indeed look cool.
Cooking is not a recipe, it's a philosophy - unless it's pastry, then it's chemistry.

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Offline abelgarcia

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2016, 10:51:30 AM »
Dough recipe = tipo00, sourdought, seasalt, water. Temperature= have to go over 500 celsius degrees. Time in oven = less than 90 seconds

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Offline robertscalchi

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2017, 07:01:18 PM »
Leoparding occurs when the dough is typically below 58 deg when handling in my experience. Just chill your dough a little that's all

Offline Ogwoodfire

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2017, 11:19:11 PM »
There are a lot more factors than just chilling the dough, although typically a refrigerated dough will turn out more leaporded than un refrigerated. The factors are here, total fermentation, time fermented in balls, oven temperature, dough temperature and type of fermentation and dough hydration. Long ferments in the fridge as well as longer times in balls and high hydration in a high temp oven will produce the most leoparded crust but not the best overall.

Offline Icelandr

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2017, 11:49:40 PM »
Thanks  Ogwoodfire, it just has to be more than a product of temperature!
I appreciate your posts, - the availability of some of the products you discuss, just doesn't happen here, but your experience helps - how you turn out the numbers of pizzas from your "kitchen on wheels" astounds me, I get uptight when there are 6 pizzas and a large kitchen. Thanks for the posts.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 08:48:22 AM »
I think the flour matters as well. If I make identical batches with Caputo Pizzeria, GM Napoletana, and 5Stagioni Nepolitan, the Caputo and GM will leopard significantly more than the 5Stagioni.
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Offline Ogwoodfire

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Re: Leoparding on the crust?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 11:15:40 PM »
Your welcome Icelander. Craig is also right on with the flour aspect as well. I find Caputo will leopard the most followed by le 5 stagioni than polselli out of the flours I typically use. KAAP will also leopard quite a bit.

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