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Offline rpmfla

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #360 on: September 21, 2018, 07:28:21 PM »
Ok, I had the dough out and ready to use after work today so I couldn't wait for a response to my previous post in this thread.

I made the dough last night around 7PM and refrigerated it over night. I took it out this morning at 7AM before leaving for work. I came home and turned the oven on but tried 525 instead of 550 due to what I mentioned in the last post about cooking my NY Styles at 550 for 4 minutes (which was perfect time/temp for them in my oven).

I rolled out the dough very thin and thoroughly docked it in the cutter pan. Once the oven was up to temp, I pre baked the crust for 3 minutes, took it out and let it cool to room temp. I then dressed with sauce, cheese, canadian bacon, mushrooms, and more cheese.

I baked another 6 minutes right on the stone and I'd say that was too long, as the crust was edible but quite dark on the bottom and edges. I only use half the dough so I plan to try another this weekend using lower temps or shorter times, or a combo of both...or maybe leave it in the pan the whole time...or maybe skip the pre bake.

By the way, the toppings were perfectly done.

I just don't understand how everyone is getting outstanding results and mine was almost burned. Perhaps my oven is hotter than it says it is? I doubted that I could cook a pizza for more than twice as long as my NY Style and not have it overdone.

Please don't take this as a criticism of the recipe as obviously many of you made awesome pizzas following it.

 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 07:33:16 PM by rpmfla »

Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #361 on: September 21, 2018, 07:38:56 PM »
 I have seen people bake crackers as low as 450 degrees. I like a faster bake, the cheese should not burn. I now par bake the crust for 2 minutes and then let it rest till room temp on a wire rack.  I've baked a few crackers lately but have not posted them on this thread. I have also stopped using sugar, but keep all the other dough ingredients the same. It keeps the crust from browning too quickly. I try to pull the pie just as crust starts browning up. I like to have the toppings close to room temp, it makes for a quicker bake. this includes the sauce, cheese, and any other meats or veggies. If you have any other question don't fail to ask. Post pics of your pie when you make it. Good luck!!

Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #362 on: September 21, 2018, 08:02:08 PM »
Ok, I had the dough out and ready to use after work today so I couldn't wait for a response to my previous post in this thread.

I made the dough last night around 7PM and refrigerated it over night. I took it out this morning at 7AM before leaving for work. I came home and turned the oven on but tried 525 instead of 550 due to what I mentioned in the last post about cooking my NY Styles at 550 for 4 minutes (which was perfect time/temp for them in my oven).

I rolled out the dough very thin and thoroughly docked it in the cutter pan. Once the oven was up to temp, I pre baked the crust for 3 minutes, took it out and let it cool to room temp. I then dressed with sauce, cheese, canadian bacon, mushrooms, and more cheese.

I baked another 6 minutes right on the stone and I'd say that was too long, as the crust was edible but quite dark on the bottom and edges. I only use half the dough so I plan to try another this weekend using lower temps or shorter times, or a combo of both...or maybe leave it in the pan the whole time...or maybe skip the pre bake.

By the way, the toppings were perfectly done.

I just don't understand how everyone is getting outstanding results and mine was almost burned. Perhaps my oven is hotter than it says it is? I doubted that I could cook a pizza for more than twice as long as my NY Style and not have it overdone.

Please don't take this as a criticism of the recipe as obviously many of you made awesome pizzas following it.

  Your crust looks very dark. Your oven may be running hot. From what I have seen most bake times for NY style pies at 550 are around 7 to 8 minutes, some a little shorter and some a little longer. 4 minute bake times seem very quick for  a home oven and even in a lot of commercial settings. If you don't have access to a accurate thermometer or IR gun I would try lowering the bake temp to 500 degrees and see if that helps.  It also depends where you are cooking the pie in the oven. If you are baking low and close to the heating elements you could raise the the rack closer to the middle position or higher. The oven I use now runs a little hotter than my old one. I used to bake my pies just below the middle position in the old one, now I bake one position above the middle. All ovens heat differently, sometimes you have to find the sweet spot by trial and error. Don't forget to leave out the sugar in your next batch, that should help quite a bit.

Offline rpmfla

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #363 on: September 21, 2018, 08:07:03 PM »
I have seen people bake crackers as low as 450 degrees. I like a faster bake, the cheese should not burn. I now par bake the crust for 2 minutes and then let it rest till room temp on a wire rack.  I've baked a few crackers lately but have not posted them on this thread. I have also stopped using sugar, but keep all the other dough ingredients the same. It keeps the crust from browning too quickly. I try to pull the pie just as crust starts browning up. I like to have the toppings close to room temp, it makes for a quicker bake. this includes the sauce, cheese, and any other meats or veggies. If you have any other question don't fail to ask. Post pics of your pie when you make it. Good luck!!

Thanks for the response. I was looking at some of the other cracker style recipes for comparative times and temps. The Pizza Inn Cracker Crust Recipe states "10 minutes at 475". Your recipe bakes the crust for 2-3 minutes pre bake and 7 more with the ingredients at 550. I'm not at all questioning your numbers...and I've drooled over the many pics you and those using your recipe have posted ...but how can one pizza be cooked 75 degrees less and only take 1 more minute? This seems impossible to me.

Do you think skipping the pre-bake would significantly (negatively) affect your recipe?...or should I

1. Lower the temp even more
2. Reduce cooking time
3. Keep it in the pan the whole time
4. Move from on the stone on the bottom of the oven to the middle so the ingredients are done before the crust burns.

Sorry for troubling you with this! I really have been making great pizzas of all kinds (except Roman style which I'm still working on) so I'm not a newb.

Offline rpmfla

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #364 on: September 21, 2018, 08:09:15 PM »
Sorry, I think I posted the last one as you were answering my questions. Please don't rename your recipe "No Fail...unless you are rpmfla"!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:12:56 PM by rpmfla »

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Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #365 on: September 21, 2018, 08:12:47 PM »
 This is the recipe I have been using for the last year. I am very happy with it and don't see me changing anything for a while. I leave out the sugar and use a 50/50 blend of APF and BF. I prefer King Arthur brand, but any good flour should work.

I was looking at my first post in this thread and I  stated " So, I think this will be my final recipe for cracker crust pizza, I don' think I can improve it." Boy was I wrong!  I have tried all sorts of dough formulas and cooking techniques over the years. I have had crusts that were like peanut brittle with no chew to more like thin and crispy with lots of chew. This latest version is crackery with a little chew, it reminds of a Ken's pizza but with a thinner crust. A lot of my attempts have been very good, but not quite what I was looking for. This one is not perfect, but I am really pleased with the crunch and chew. I may  not be able to recreate the old school PH cracker crust, but I am close. I will have some fun trying a poolish to see if it improves the flavor since the crust is more or less flavorless. I am also going to try my hand at a quick RT ferment so in an emergency I can make the dough a few hours beforehand when I need to bake it.

 I did a 48 hour CF. The dough is good to use even going out to 72 hours. I use a 14" cutter pan when par baking the crust. A flat pan can be used, a pizza screen or baked directly on a stone. A pizza stone is a must for the cracker like crust. A baking steel could be used, but you might have to lower the temps to keep the bottom from burning. I roll the crust out to 20 inches just in case I have a bad spot or a craggy edge. You may be able to make a smaller skin if you are not using a cutter pan or are directly baking on a stone. Below is the exact formula I have used on my last  3 pies. I did not use the dough calculator, just tried something new from what I have learned in the past attempts. Using the dough calculator I reversed engineered  the formula. It is close enough that you should get the same results. I have included it, so you can make any size skin you are after. One of the major differences between this and my last attempts a while back, is the blending of different flours. I used a 50/50 blend of KAAP and KABF.

Dough formula
373 grams flour  50/50 blend KAAP/KABF
157 grams of water
1/3 teaspoon IDY
   1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon sugar
   3 tablespoons oil

The procedure:

Place the dry ingredients in a food processor and pulse a couple of times to combine. Add the oil to the water and whisk to breakup  the oil droplets. With the processor running on low slowly add the liquid mixture to the dry ingredients. Blend till everything is combined. Stop the processor and scrape down the sides. Pulse the mixture 5 or 6 more times. Let the mixture sit for a few minutes to help the flour hydrate. Dump the dough mixture onto the counter and squeeze together to form a ball. The mixture may need a spritz of water if it is too dry. Use just enough to get the mixture to hold together. It usually needs only a couple of sprays. This time I formed the dough into a disc instead of a ball to help in rolling out. Place the dough in a oiled plastic baggy. Move to the fridge for a minimum of 24 hours. 48 hours is better, and even 72 hours will work.

Remove the dough to the counter 3 hours prior to baking to warm up.  Dust the counter lightly with KABF.  Roll the skin out till it starts sticking. Then lightly dust the top of the skin and flip over and continue rolling. Repeat till the skin is the size you need. Place the skin in the pan and using a rolling pin on the edge of the cutter pan roll to separate the leftover dough.

Dock the dough heavily then turn the pan 90 degrees and dock again. This will help in reducing large bubbles. Place the skin in the cutter pan on the stone in a 550 degree oven that has been pre-heating for at least an hour. Par bake for about 2 to 3 minutes., or until the crust has just set, pull it out before any browning. Remove the skin from the pan to a cooling rack. Be careful the crust is very delicate and can easily crack. Leave it on the rack for 10 to 15minutes.

  Move the skin to a peel and add toppings. For the pie I used 6 oz of Strianese tomatoes, 5 oz Best Choice mozzarella and 4.5 oz Garvey's Italian sausage.  Using the peel, slide the pie onto the stone. Cook time will be around 7 minutes. Remove pie to a cooling rack. For a crisper bottom let the pie cool for about 5 minutes then slide back onto the stone for 60 seconds, you should not do more than 90 seconds to keep the bottom from burning. Move the pie to the cooling rack for at least 5 minutes before slicing.

  I wrote this walkthrough before making the pie. I wanted to make sure that I did not forget anything. I followed the directions to the letter. The verdict: The crust was very crackery with a tender and light chew. The blend of both flours seemed to work very well. It gave it the characteristics I was looking for. If you have any questions be sure to ask.

Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #366 on: September 21, 2018, 08:25:45 PM »
Thanks for the response. I was looking at some of the other cracker style recipes for comparative times and temps. The Pizza Inn Cracker Crust Recipe states "10 minutes at 475". Your recipe bakes the crust for 2-3 minutes pre bake and 7 more with the ingredients at 550. I'm not at all questioning your numbers...and I've drooled over the many pics you and those using your recipe have posted ...but how can one pizza be cooked 75 degrees less and only take 1 more minute? This seems impossible to me.

Do you think skipping the pre-bake would significantly (negatively) affect your recipe?...or should I

1. Lower the temp even more
2. Reduce cooking time
3. Keep it in the pan the whole time
4. Move from on the stone on the bottom of the oven to the middle so the ingredients are done before the crust burns.

Sorry for troubling you with this! I really have been making great pizzas of all kinds (except Roman style which I'm still working on) so I'm not a newb.


 Any of those options may work. I would try lowering the temp and moving the stone toward the middle or a little higher. If you still have problems you might try just baking in the pan on the stone. Some people don't par bake the skin. I par bake because I believe it makes for  a crisper crust. My last pie I par baked the skin let it cool on a rack then placed it in the pan and let it sit on the counter overnight. The crust even seemed to be more crispy. As you can see after all these years I still like to try new things. Don't give up you are getting close...keep those pics coming.

Offline rpmfla

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #367 on: September 23, 2018, 07:20:53 PM »
Ok, I used the other half of the dough batch today. All in all, this second half was in the refrigerator since Thursday night and out on the counter since 6:30 this morning (Sunday). Did a pre bake at 485 for 5 min. and took it out to cool to room temp. Raised the oven temp to 500.

I dressed the pizza with cheese and pulled chicken with Buffalo sauce, then placed it into the 500 degree oven. It took another 10 minutes to get the crust brown and cheese melted.

Cooled for 7 minutes and added a blue cheese sauce.

It tasted great, and the crust was not too dark.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 03:48:34 PM by rpmfla »

Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #368 on: September 24, 2018, 08:23:28 PM »
 Looks great! Nice color on the crust. Was the crust crispy? Did you like it, or do you think it needs improving? I find the crust more or less tasteless, but then again I am shooting for a cracker like texture. Leave out the sugar in the next batch. You might shorten the par bake a little. I bake it till the dough just sets up. The crust is soft to the touch. This is done so it takes longer for the crust to brown and I can get a longer bake for the toppings.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 08:35:20 PM by nick57 »

Offline rpmfla

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #369 on: September 29, 2018, 01:28:51 PM »
Ok, so now I know why my 1st try at the DD Cracker pizza failed! My oven element was going bad. I just tried to heat up the oven to make muffins (with another batch of your dough out on the counter warming up to use later) and I noticed the muffins were taking way too long. I then inspected the inside of the oven and found a gap in the heating element where it had broken. I think it just snapped apart when I turned it on to bake the muffins, but it must have been malfunctioning last weekend when I was trying out your recipe for the first time. The first half of the dough batch burned pretty quickly and the next day's batch took much longer. Oh well, I suppose the dough will still be ok Monday (maybe even tastier) when my new element gets here.

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Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #370 on: September 29, 2018, 08:40:18 PM »
Ok, so now I know why my 1st try at the DD Cracker pizza failed! My oven element was going bad. I just tried to heat up the oven to make muffins (with another batch of your dough out on the counter warming up to use later) and I noticed the muffins were taking way too long. I then inspected the inside of the oven and found a gap in the heating element where it had broken. I think it just snapped apart when I turned it on to bake the muffins, but it must have been malfunctioning last weekend when I was trying out your recipe for the first time. The first half of the dough batch burned pretty quickly and the next day's batch took much longer. Oh well, I suppose the dough will still be ok Monday (maybe even tastier) when my new element gets here.

 Bummer. At least it's an easy fix.

Offline rpmfla

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #371 on: October 01, 2018, 07:07:27 PM »
update: Due to my oven element breaking, the DD cracker style dough I had taken out to use last Saturday went back in the refrigerator. I had made the dough Thursday night. I ordered a new oven element Saturday on Amazon, it was waiting for me when I got off work today (Monday) at 5:00PM. It took me about 2 minutes to install it and tried it out at 500 degrees for my DD cracker. The oven preheated fine...I think it got up to temp faster than before.

I normally keep the pizza stone on the lowest rack just above the element but for this crust I moved it to about center oven.

I prebaked the crust for 4 minutes at 500 degrees, taking it out just as a slight golden color appeared in spots and let the crust cool for about 15 minutes.

I dressed the crust with tomato sauce, sliced provolone, mushrooms, sauteed spinach w/garlic, and a topping of some 5 Italian Cheese blend from Sargento. I then placed it directly on the stone for another 6 minutes @ 500 degrees.

The pizza was great! The crust and the toppings came out perfectly done at the same time. The crust was browned but not dark and the cheese was just melted to gooey perfection. Also, I had my 1st ever Ginger Beer from Australia and thought it paired extraordinarily well.

I want to thank you for all of your investigations into this "cracker style". The pizza crust was excellent, especially when hot. Nice and crispy on the bottom.

Hopefully the crispness stays when reheated.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 08:51:56 PM by rpmfla »

Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #372 on: October 11, 2018, 07:36:18 PM »
  Norm posted a thread in the General Pizza Making subject about the TF's of different styles of pizza crusts. I never checked the TF of my cracker recipe, so I plugged in my numbers in the dough calculator. It turned out to be .065, it seems that for a cracker it can be between .05 and .08. I have hit the middle number.

  I have been to the Blaze a few times and really like how thin and crispy the crust is. It is thinner than mine. I decided to shoot for a .055 TF. Since I am rolling it out by hand, it ought to be interesting to see if I have difficulty getting the skin to size and thinness. Just finished making the dough ball and placing it in the fridge, shooting for a 48 hour CF.I am excited to see what the results will be.

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #373 on: October 11, 2018, 08:12:07 PM »
Can't wait to see how it turns out - BTW, have you seen my new online dough, sauce and cheese calculator - been working on it for a few weeks. Lots of info in the thread but if you just want to get an idea about how it looks you can just jump in at the link below (and get links to the calculator pages). I'm working hard to build something that the members here would like to see and use.....

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54187.msg546616#msg546616    to see what it does

or go to

www.mypizzamaster.com for the landing screen with some info about the calculator.....
Norm

Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #374 on: October 11, 2018, 08:28:36 PM »
 Norm,

 Nice calculator tool. I ran a few of my pie recipes and the numbers are very close to the forum's calculator, and good enough for the girls I go out with  8). I bookmarked it for later use or if pizzamaking.com failed to exist in the future....God forbid!!!!!!  Little worried about rolling the skin so thin. I will take my time and not rush it, and a have a few tricks to make the rolling out easier.

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #375 on: October 12, 2018, 10:27:14 AM »
Thanks Nick -- but they should have matched exactly - computers don't make mistakes - but in this case -- my fingers were also involved  :-D

When You say it did not match - what value are your talking about? I'm trying to improve the calculator and very interested in any and all feedback - good or bad!
Norm

Online nick57

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #376 on: October 12, 2018, 12:53:06 PM »
Norm,

 I redid  some of my formulas again. Your calculator was spot on. Think your fingers were OK. Last night the values were off by a couple of grams. Of course it could be my eyesight, but the more likely cause was I was enjoying an adult beverage or two. :-D Looks like you got it right.

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #377 on: October 12, 2018, 12:59:41 PM »
Thanks you so much for taking the time to help me test the site - I'm glad it seemed to work OK - I'm implementing the BBCode copy to clipboard function across all calculator pages today - hope that goes w/o a hitch...

Yes "adult beverage or two" I'm with you buddy. But, I promise not to drink and code  :-D

Norm

Offline sodface

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #378 on: October 13, 2018, 03:53:54 PM »
Mixed up a batch of Nick's cracker crust this morning.  Also wanted to try Norm's calculator and bbcode feature.  Nick, it looks like you've upped the salt and zeroed out the sugar from the version of your formula I've been using.

GramsOunces
Total Flour (100%)
554.48
19.56
1st Flour KAAP (50%)
277.24
9.78
2nd Flour AT (50%)
277.24
9.78
Water (42%)
232.88
8.21
Yeast (0.27%) IDY
1.5
0.05
Salt (1.3%)
7.21
0.25
Oil (11%)
60.99
2.15
Sugar (0.53%)
2.94
0.1
Other  (0.0%)
0
0
Other  (0.0%)
0
0
Other  (0.0%)
0
0
Single Ball
215
7.58
Sauce TF = (0)
0
Cheese TF = (0)
0
Dough TF = (0.067055874)
Number Dough Balls = 4
Pizza Size = 12 inches
Date Mixed = 2018-10-13
Date Baked =
         
NOTES:
Mixed up 4x12" batch of Nick's cracker crust today.  Did all Crisco shortening and did the flour/shortening paste method again.  Mixed in the food processor.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 03:55:57 PM by sodface »
Carl

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Dough Doctors cracker...No fail!
« Reply #379 on: October 13, 2018, 04:06:33 PM »
Thanks for helping me test my calculator Carl - IOU one :)

One important thing to remember - bowl residue is included in the ingredients but then subtracted from the single ball weight.

My thinking was that bowl residue should be lost before the balls are made. I don't think the other calculator(s) implement this logic, but I could be wrong.

This should allow people to get a feel for what the right bowl residue number should be (for their individual workflows). If someone routinely ends up with more in each ball, they should probably consider decreasing their bowl residue amount (or vice versa).

Hope that makes sense :-)
Norm

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