Round Table Pizza dough recipe - Part One

[Jackitup]

Also when rolling out the dough, I roll the dough ball in the bench flour then roll the dough out to size, flip it over and bring in four imaginary corners to the center (makes something like a diamond shape but I try to keep it as round as possible), flip it over and press it into a round disc. I don't believe I'm wiping off the bench flour before folding, but I'll need to make the dough again to be for sure. Then proceed rolling the skin to full size. So, I guess what I'm doing is some altered form of sheeting and layering.

I was thinking of doing the same thing on the next cracker crust I do. I was going to try it on last nites pie and forgot. Thinking of doing what you did (folding in 4 corners thing), re-warm a bit if necessary and then roll out to final crust and par-bake to see the difference.
Jon

[fazzari]

After reading all the info on the Round Table crust I just had to give it a try...in particular I was interested in seeing what the milk would add to the crust.  I used many of the same techniques discussed in the cracker crust section, since the Round Table instructions include the sheeter and such.  So, using Peter's recipe, I threw everything in my Kitchenaid, mixed for 6 minutes....flattened the dough in my mixing bowl and let rise in a warmed oven for about 1 1/2 hours... I then used the rolling pin and rolled out a nice thin sheet, and then folded this sheet 3 layers deep and rolled again to desired thickness...and cut out skins...refrigerated for 30 hours.  Warmed up a skin for 30 minutes...did not dock this skin, sauced it, cheesed it and added pepperoni, olives , mushrooms and fresh ground beef ( I really loaded this pizza up to see if the skin would cook thorougly).  I then cooked the pizza directly on my pizza stone in a 500 degree oven...it took about 9 1/2 minutes....I used a long knife to poke at the bubbles, so the toppings wouldn't slide too much.  I have never eaten at a Round Table, so I don't know what I'm comparing too, but I can tell you the pizza was excellent (bravo Peter), the bottom was crispy, the middle was soft, the crust was cooked all the way through and if I could change anything, I would try to cook it a little hotter.  This recipe is a definite keeper, and it's also about as simple as they come, because the higher hydration makes the dough so easy to work with. 
John

[Pete-zza]

John,

That's a great looking pizza. Maybe some of our recent experiments will unlock the last piece of the puzzle--getting the correct crust structure for a Round Table clone.

It's always an interesting exercise to try to reverse engineer a pizza and crust you have never eaten before. I went through the same thing with the Donatos clone, which is covered at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2711.0.html. The dough is also sheeted, although I believe that Donatos is now delivering the skins to their stores in frozen form. If you liked the Round Table clone, then I think you will also like the Donatos clone. I wouldn't be surprised if the principles we have been working with lately also apply to the Donatos clone.

Peter

[BTB]

I've done some pizzamaking recently that I've learned in the Cracker Crust section and am now interested in trying the RT pizza out.  I'm a little confused as to what one of the latest recipes are (in baker's % so I can use the dough calculation tool and adjust for size).  Can anyone point me to one so I can try this out?  Is there a RT III?  Also, I remember the comment along the line that if using the Carnation dry milk (the only one that seems to be locally available) that it has to be mixed with water and boiled and cooled before using.  Do others do that and what is the rationale again?   

[Pete-zza]

BTB,

I was involved with the RT clone recipes at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg17795.html#msg17795, and at Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg33883.html#msg33883. I also came up with a modification of a recipe used by scott r, at Reply 111 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1911.msg34088.html#msg34088. I am not sure which recipe John used or which one DNA Dan has been using. Once I came up with some test formulations, I was not of much help to the RT pizza lovers since I have never had an RT pizza to know what the crust texture is like. I have been waiting for the RT cognoscenti like DNA Dan, Lydia and elsegundo to try to come up with a solution to the perplexing crust problem. It also seems to me from my readings on this thread that the different RT stores don’t appear to be making their pizzas in exactly the same way and that they do a fair amount of free lancing.

Maybe one of these days after I have finished my cracker crust experiments and have more knowledge under my belt I can turn my attentions back to the RT clones. I think there are solutions for making thin crust pizzas in a home oven but that the layering/lamination problems needs more work. At this point, John may be the best equipped to offer general opinions and advice since he is a professional with a sheeter and a commercial deck oven and he also makes pizzas in his home oven. From what I can tell from the RT store locator at http://www.roundtablepizza.com/RTP/HI/, there are no RT stores near Clarkson, WA for John to try, although there are some RT stores elsewhere within the state.

As for the explanation for scalding milk, it is to disable an offending whey protein in the milk. This is a topic that was discussed not too long ago at Replies 9-12, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5609.msg47756.html#msg47756. As you will see there, the quantity of dry milk you would use in the RT dough recipe is likely to be too small to worry about.

Peter

[fazzari]

Peter
In my opinion there is one big misconception in this conversation about sheeted doughs.  The addition of flour has absolutely nothing to do with the sheeting process except to make the dough easy to handle...it has nothing to do with layering...in fact, I don't even flour my dough until the lamination process (the compression process) is done and I am sheeting the dough to correct thickness.  You have to flour the dough then simply to keep the dough from sticking to itself.
My next experiment is going to be to increase the hydration of these doughs, keep them undermixed, and see how the "cracker crust method" of formation changes the different skins...maybe there will be a huge winner in there??  Sure hope so!!
I have to say one more time...your RT crust is wonderful!!
John

[Pete-zza]

Thanks, John. Which RT dough clone recipe did you use?

When I first started playing around with the Lehmann cracker-style dough, which is a medium-hydration dough, I used a layering approach with a small dusting of flour between the layers. As with the instructions given along the same lines by ThatOneGuy, who worked for RT, I assumed that the flour between the layers contributed to the desired texture of the finished RT crust. The hydration I used for the RT dough clone recipes is somewhere between a low-hydration dough (the DKM cracker style dough being a good example) and a medium-hydration dough (the Lehmann soda cracker dough being a good example). Maybe the overall RT dough hydration goes down more than we think with all the added bench flour. In fact, the starting hydration may be higher than what we have been using.

I am planning soon to try member buzz's "Giordano's" cracker-style dough, which is definitely a high-hydration dough, to see the difference. At the urging of member November, I have been meaning to try a high-hydration version, and buzz's recipe seems to fit the bill. As I try to do with all new recipes I try, I will be following buzz's instructions as closely as I can with my equipment, including docking and pre-baking the skin, which are steps that you have studiously avoided. So, if you dispense with these steps in your higher hydration doughs, I will be anxious to hear of your results.

Peter

[fazzari]

The recipe I used was in one of Dan's posts with your name on it:
100% flour
48  % water
2    %salt
2    %shortening
2   % sugar
1.25%  dry milk
.40  % yeast

Hey Peter, a little off the subject, but maybe you can help me out.  Through all the experimentation I've been doing in my home oven on the cracker crust, I'm right on the verge of a huge breakthrough in my dough at work.  I have mentioned that even though we buy the exact same flour product every single week, the changes in the flour have a noticable affect on the final dough.  Sometimes the flour seems very strong (this makes the worst crust), and sometimes it's weaker (and this makes the best crust).  Well, we finally figured out that when we get the real strong stuff (which seems to be in the winter time), we can compensate by 1) cutting mixing time and/or 2) lowering the hydration rate.  These are the kinds of problems which make this dough so damned hard to get consistent (maybe it's why not too many people use the method anymore?)  To give you an idea of the volume we do, I rolled over 1200 pounds of dough on the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday after Thanksgiving....so experimenting on this much product seems foolhardy.  I am tinkering with the idea, that maybe we should keep the hydration percentage constant on every single flour...and just monitor/adjust the mix times as the flour strength changes...of course this means monitoring water temperature also as the friction factor will change with the different flours and mix times.  Do you have any ideas on my situation?
Thanks Peter

JOhn
I'm gonna take a look at the giordano's pizza, and see how fun it is

[Pete-zza]

John,

I have some thoughts on this matter, but to keep this thread from veering off in another direction would you mind reposting the second part of your post as a new topic under General Pizza Making? Thanks.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Peter
In my opinion there is one big misconception in this conversation about sheeted doughs.  The addition of flour has absolutely nothing to do with the sheeting process except to make the dough easy to handle...it has nothing to do with layering...in fact, I don't even flour my dough until the lamination process (the compression process) is done and I am sheeting the dough to correct thickness.  You have to flour the dough then simply to keep the dough from sticking to itself.
My next experiment is going to be to increase the hydration of these doughs, keep them undermixed, and see how the "cracker crust method" of formation changes the different skins...maybe there will be a huge winner in there??  Sure hope so!!
I have to say one more time...your RT crust is wonderful!!
John

Hi John,

After a series of experiments trying to make a laminated crust without the use of a sheeter, I arrived at your exact comments. I completely agree that is isn't the flour that is so crucial to the lamination process, it's the SHEETER!

The only part of this crust that still has me baffled, (which I am hoping you could shed some light on) is the lamination process itself WITH the usage of a sheeter. I understand that you make a thin sheet, then fold, then it passes through the sheeter. This process is typically done 2-3 times. What I dont really understand is without liberal amounts of flour, what keeps the dough from reincorporating to itself? Is it strictly the speed of the sheeter? The pressure? Is the final pass done at a lower compression factor to prevent 100% reincorporation? Is the dough even rolled after the final fold?

I am not asking for any secrets here, just whether or not it's sheeted hard after the final fold.

Peter, your contributions to this clone has been remarkable THANK YOU!. I think the missing link has always been the sheeter with this recipe. The closest I have come to a workable clone is using the latest recipe you proposed with a pasta roller. When making the pie, I don't fold and roll like one would be able to do with a sheeter. Instead I make several thin sheets, use a rolling pin on them ever so slightly, then use a die to cut out my pie. This is why I am interested in some feedback from John, because I HAVE used a pasta roller for each fold and roll cycle and I always end up with a 90-100% reincorporated crust.

[dland]

Bummer! It's all about the bubbles, right?

Dense and bready dosen't sound right at all. Hmmm. I haven't had that issue come up with this formula. Could be the brand.

I let the dough set at room temp. for at least 4 hours and then I either use it at that point or throw it in the fridge for use next day (24 hrs). Removing from fridge 1 hr. before rolling.

I am not docking, layering/sheeting at this point and time. The folding was with a different formula.

I'm using a small 5 inch roller to focus on the center of the dough. It helps move the bubles to the edge. I know pampered Chef sells them, and have seen them in a few specialty shops. SOmetimes they have 2 different sized rollers on each end of the handle. (If you haven't seen one, I know that it can sound weird.)

The amounts of ingredients in the first sauce recipe are a bit low and it's also missing the ground white pepper, ground fennel and cumin. Remember this is still a work in progress, it's not totally there yet.

Also remember to leave a good 1 1/2 - 2 inch border. The toppings tend to weigh-down the bubbles.
If you add enough cheese it will spread as it melts and still allows the bubbles to form. Don't ask how much is enough, this is one of those things I've learned to eye-ball and every brand spreads differently.

Even very slight over-mixing seems to affect the bubbles. Still not totally sure about it though.
Don't get too frustrated yet. Somehow my son manages to kill the bubbles, and I haven't quite figured out exactly what he's doing to cause it. Hopefully, I'll catch whatever it is.

Hope this helps.

I made this recipe again this weekend following Lydia's instructions on fermentation time and temperatures as well as keeping a thicker outside ring. I was rewarded much much better results. The crust was crisp on the bottom, soft and light inside, and had nice chew to it. And, of course, there were plenty of big, beautiful bubbles. Really very close to RT in my opinion. It's been a few years since I've had Round Table, but this is pretty much how I remember it being. And even if it's not dead-on it's still a really good crust. Great job Lydia and thanks so much!

I did fold the dough inward like she mentioned creating a layered effect. I can't be certain without constructing a few more pizzas both with and without using this technique, but it did seem to have a positive effect on the resulting crust in terms of creating airiness and bubbles. It seems to be that the layers allow the individual sheets of dough to rise and expand independently allowing more air to sit between them (somewhat like the layers of baklava dough).

Everyone seems to be very impressed with Peter's RT dough so I'm going to give that a shot next, but big kudos to Lydia on this one.

Dave

[fazzari]

Dan
There are no secrets......here is how it goes
I take a 20 pound piece of dough and flatten it by hand
I then sheet the dough to about one half inch...it's probably only 4 feet by 24 inches (no flour)
I then add all the scraps from the previous roll and fold the dough to fit through the sheeter
I then sheet the dough to about three quarters inch (24 inch by 3 feet) no flour
I then fold this dough in half lengthwise and start sheeting
As the dough starts thinning I add just enough flour to stop the sticking (this will vary with the dough)
The final result (for 16 inch skins) is a sheet of dough 17 inches wide by 12 or so feet long

Remember that the process of sheeting or rolling is really no different than kneading, when you knead dough by hand you use as little flour as possible, the same is true with sheeting (at least, this is how I do it)
To give you an example....I use about 2 pounds of flour to sheet 270 pounds of dough..that's just a guess, but I think its pretty accurate.  When I cut my sheet into circles there is no noticable flour on the skin...it is incorporated into the dough.  So, it's just dry enough so you can unfold a long sheet of dough without it sticking to itself.

Hope this helps
John

[elsegundo]

"I then fold this dough in half lengthwise and start sheeting"

This is the secret. It is the secret that has eluded many.  The fold has produced two layers. Without the folding you just have a skinny pizza. If you do a business letter fold like I do you have three layers.  A laminated dough.


Layers are beautiful.

[fazzari]

Just my opinion, but the layers are not the ends, they are the means to the ends...that is, the layers are the method used to compress cells that create the skin.  Actually, in the restaurant setting, not only do I have 6 layers, but in between these layers are all the scraps from previous rolls.  It's the compression, with minimal work on the dough itself.
John

[BTB]

While I do not remember ever having a Round Table pizza, I thought I would give a try at making one as I'm always interested in finding a good pizza recipe.  I chose this formulation for the dough/crust from one Pete mentioned above:

Flour (100%):    256.6 g  |  9.05 oz | 0.57 lbs
Water (48.3%):    123.94 g  |  4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs
IDY (.40%):    1.03 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Salt (2.08%):    5.34 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Sugar (2.08%):    5.34 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Dry Non-Fat Milk (1.25%):    3.21 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 2.23 tsp | 0.74 tbsp
Shortening (2.08%):    5.34 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Total (156.19%):   400.79 g | 14.14 oz | 0.88 lbs | TF = 0.08

For size, I put in a 15" round pizza in the expanded dough calculation tool as I had planned to cut the rolled out dough onto my lightly oiled 14" cutter pan.  I used my new Kitchen Aid food processor, which seems to be a great device to make dough for some of these home made pizza crusts.  I mixed all the dry ingredients first (used Harvest King flour), then added and pulsed the mixture with the shortening (Crisco), then added the water and pulsed for another 30 to 40 seconds.  Very simple and quick way to make the dough.  The crumbled dough mixture is thereafter so very easy to form into a ball, which weighed 13.6 ounces . . . a little less than the calculation tool indicated. 

I then put the dough ball into a zip lock bag, sealing it after getting most of the air out, and let it rise on the counter for 4 to 5 hours.  After it nearly doubled in size, I then put it into the refrigerator for about 42 hours.  Thereafter I let the dough warm up on the counter for about an hour and then rolled it out by hand to about a 15 inch diameter.  I didn't do any layering or refolding or such, as I am just first experimenting to get an idea of what this formulation tasted like.  I used my new 14" dark, anodized nonperforated cutter pan (from pizzatools.com), which I've really come to like alot.  I was very reluctant at first to get one, but I'm glad I did as it really has done the job well for me.  I haven't used my pizza screens or stone since I got the cutter pan.

After docking the pizza with the docker, I put the skin in the lightly oiled cutter pan, and pre-baked it at 475 degrees F for about 4 minutes on the lowest oven rack position.  After dressing the pizza with sauce (delicious 6 in 1 crushed tomatoes doctored up with a number of ingredients), toppings and cheese, the pizza was returned to the oven and baked on the lowest rack for around 7 minutes, then moved (still in the cutter pan) to the top oven rack for 2 to 3 minutes to help in browning the top of the pizza.  Some pictures below (sorry the close-up one isn't in focus well for some reason).

This pizza, too, was excellent.  It was crispy and firm enough to hold a piece straight out with all the toppings without drooping.  To me it was another type of cracker crust and I will categorize it as such in my book of recipes.  It was different in flavor and texture from the DKM version that I've tried recently and I plan to do a side by side comparison in the near future to better learn about the taste and other characteristics of each.  Right now, they both are great in my book.  The next time I try this formulation, however, I think I may roll out the crust to be a little thicker.

[Pete-zza]

The crumbled dough mixture is thereafter so very easy to form into a ball, which weighed 13.6 ounces . . . a little less than the calculation tool indicated.

BTB,

I'm glad to see that the pizza worked out well for you.

One of the nice features of the dough calculating tool is that you can compensate for minor dough losses during preparation, by using the bowl residue compensation feature. Each dough formulation has its own value, but I usually start with 1.5% as the value to enter into the tool and adjust with experience. Another little trick that I use, which was given to me by member November, is to first rinse out the cup I plan to use to weigh the water with water, then tare the cup on my digital scale, and then add the water to the desired weight. That way, when you empty the cup, you will get pretty much all of the weighed amount of water out of it even though there is residual water still clinging to the sides of the cup.

Peter

[DNA Dan]

Just my opinion, but the layers are not the ends, they are the means to the ends...that is, the layers are the method used to compress cells that create the skin.  Actually, in the restaurant setting, not only do I have 6 layers, but in between these layers are all the scraps from previous rolls.  It's the compression, with minimal work on the dough itself.
John

John, Is the thickness kept the same with each pass through the sheeter? Or do you go slightly smaller and smaller each time, then thicker on the last folded sheet?

[fazzari]

Dan
The goal is to get it thin in as few passes as possible.  The variables are obviously the strength of the dough and the strength of your sheeter.  Remember that each pass through the rollers develops your dough....which is exactly why you undermixed it in the first place.
John

[DNA Dan]

Dan
The goal is to get it thin in as few passes as possible.  The variables are obviously the strength of the dough and the strength of your sheeter.  Remember that each pass through the rollers develops your dough....which is exactly why you undermixed it in the first place.
John

This is precisely the problem you run into using a rolling pin. It just takes to long to get down to the next thickness factor and the dough develops TOO much on the table. I think the warming method that has been recently employed for this style is a breakthrough for those of us that don't have professional dough sheeters. Its a huge step forward for the home cracker style baker, but for the purist, it still falls short of a good sheeted crust.

[DNA Dan]

12 oz harvest king
4 oz Quaker Harina preparada flour tortilla mix
.25 instant yeast

8.40 oz water approx. 90F

process in food processor until just combined.
Some yeast will not be dissolved.
Proof at the very least 3-4  hours room temp
Proof overnight in fridge for criper crust.

Makes 2, 14 inch pizza
Or roll 16” and it will be flakier

Can divide dough and make 2, 12’s but it’s a bit heavy and the crust doesn’t crisp as well.( Sameday)
But with the overnight ferment it ‘s more like the current Shakey’s.

Lydia, I finally got some Harina Preparada online. Cost me ~$8 to ship about $8 worth of flour. I am just dying to try this out, so I didn't bother with the cost involved.

Have you made any adjustments to the recipe as you have laid out previously? I think I will try and sheet some ala "elsegundo" method as well.