### Author Topic: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie  (Read 9475 times)

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#### scott123

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2012, 06:18:20 PM »
Z, for KABF, unless you're at a high elevation, I think 64% might be a little high. I would shoot for between 60-62%

Also, for Neapolitan pizza, salt should be between 2% and 3% and for NY, it should be between 1.5% and 2%. Since you're working with a NY style flour and oven setup, I'd go with between 1.5% and 2% salt.

#### jeffereynelson

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2012, 11:46:31 PM »
If you are only making two pizza from that batch, those will be huge pizzas.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2012, 08:11:48 AM »
Z, for KABF, unless you're at a high elevation, I think 64% might be a little high. I would shoot for between 60-62%

Also, for Neapolitan pizza, salt should be between 2% and 3% and for NY, it should be between 1.5% and 2%. Since you're working with a NY style flour and oven setup, I'd go with between 1.5% and 2% salt.

Thanks for the input. I'll adjust on the next batch.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2012, 08:13:19 AM »
If you are only making two pizza from that batch, those will be huge pizzas.

It's suppose to be enough dough for  (3) 14" dia. pizzas. We'll see as it progresses.

Here's a shot of the dough going into the container.
I put it on top of the yellow lid for contrast.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2012, 07:13:23 PM »
Okay I cooked up the pizza tonite. I learned a lot in this one cooking. I should have let the dough rest some more before I went to cooking. My oven is slow to heat the stone up. I should give it 1.5 hours before starting to cook. I have to let the pies cook longer. The first pizza could have baked a little longer. My oven temp said it was 550 degree. The digital therm clocked the stone at 506 degrees.

I made this sauce to put on the pizza instead of the old store bought. It turned out good.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,994.0.html

Here's some shots. Please comment and critic so I may improve.

Thanks

#### scott123

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2012, 08:59:40 PM »
Z, nice job on the onion/pepper pie. I think that's your best to date.

Was this an hour pre-heat? A 506 stone after an hour pre-heat is not a good sign.  It's fairly rare that a 550 dial temp oven misses the mark by that much.  Hopefully another half hour will drive up the temp considerably more.

Have you tried the sacrificial dough ball stretch practice that we talked about?  It looks like your stretching skills are improving, but I think you still have a ways to go. Are the dough balls perfectly round coming out of the container?  If they aren't then perhaps you need to oil the container a bit more so the dough doesn't get mangled and/or use a different container.

Are you storing the dough balls in the closed containers until they are ready to stretch? The first photo looks like the dough had air contact and might have skinned over.

Were these stretched to 14"?  I think it's time to decrease your dough ball size and to stretch your dough further. You should also focus on pressing out a smaller rim during the stretch.

What was the bake time for these?

Btw, for the style you're making, you don't want to cook the sauce. Nor do you want lemon juice, dried basil or thyme.  At it's simplest, sauce should be uncooked tomatoes, salt, and sugar. You can sprinkle the oregano on the pizza or add it to the sauce.  That's it.

#### Chicago Bob

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2012, 10:56:11 PM »
Jus want to take a moment here to say that you are a really good instructor/teacher/helper Scott (sound of crowd applauding)....very nice what you do.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2012, 06:15:41 AM »
Z, nice job on the onion/pepper pie. I think that's your best to date.

Thanks. That was a great pizza. I really scored points with the wifey on that one. BTW: I was worried about the water content of the toppings so I roasted them on a pan while the stone heated up. It was so much better than the normal soupy return I usually get.

Was this an hour pre-heat? A 506 stone after an hour pre-heat is not a good sign.  It's fairly rare that a 550 dial temp oven misses the mark by that much.  Hopefully another half hour will drive up the temp considerably more.

Okay, I'll admit I'm stupid.  The one hour is while the oven is pre-heating as well. I think you are right about the extra 1/2 hour. It seems as if the pizzas get better towards the end of the baking session. I think I'll just put the stone in. Turn on the oven. When the pre-heat light goes off then I'll take a reading. If it's not up to par I'll wait a 1/2 hour more.

Have you tried the sacrificial dough ball stretch practice that we talked about?  It looks like your stretching skills are improving, but I think you still have a ways to go. Are the dough balls perfectly round coming out of the container?  If they aren't then perhaps you need to oil the container a bit more so the dough doesn't get mangled and/or use a different container.

Yes. In fact I was going all out tossing the dough up in the air and enjoying the cook even though I'm sure I looked like an idiot. One thing that I didn't do is separate the balls before the cold fermentation. It was all together in one big ball. I did oil the container with olive oil. I used about a tablespoon. I'll be searching for some smaller containers to separated the dough balls into.

I noticed that the dough contracts when I stretch it out as well. Why does it do that? I would get the dough stretched out beautifully then it would contract. I'd have to stretch it out again. Is this due to not letting it sit out at room temperature long enough?

Are you storing the dough balls in the closed containers until they are ready to stretch? The first photo looks like the dough had air contact and might have skinned over.

I didn't put the lid on tightly as I thought it was supposed to release some gas as it got bigger. So I should keep the lid on tightly while in the fridge?

Were these stretched to 14"?  I think it's time to decrease your dough ball size and to stretch your dough further. You should also focus on pressing out a smaller rim during the stretch.

No they were around 12" dia by the time I cooked them. The dough kept contracting. To be honest around 12" is about the limit of my peel. I have to upgrade in that area. I understand what you are saying about the rim. It was ridiculous how it puffed up.

What was the bake time for these?

I didn't time them. Sorry, I'll have to remember to do that next time. If I had to guess I'd say around 6~8 minutes.

Btw, for the style you're making, you don't want to cook the sauce. Nor do you want lemon juice, dried basil or thyme.  At it's simplest, sauce should be uncooked tomatoes, salt, and sugar. You can sprinkle the oregano on the pizza or add it to the sauce.  That's it.

Thanks for the tip. This was actually my first attempt at making a sauce. I will try as you say on the next batch.

Scott, I really appreciate you taking the time from your weekend to help me out. I feel as if I've made major strides with this last cooking session. I know I need serious help to improve. I'm sure with your suggestions and guidance I'll get better.
Thanks again,
Z

#### scott123

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2012, 05:22:21 AM »
Bob, thanks for the kind words.

Z, you're going to get different opinions when it comes to pre-cooking vegetable toppings, but I'm definitely in the pre-cook camp.

You'll want to pre-heat the stone well past when the pre-heat light goes off. My pre-heat light goes off and on at least 3 times during my hour pre-heat.  Put the stone in the oven close the door, crank the heat and don't open the door for 90 minutes.

You also want to ball a minimum of 6 hours prior to stretching, or, as you found out, the dough will fight you on the stretch.  I make the dough, ball it, refrigerate it for a day, re-ball it, and then refrigerate another day- 24 hours between balling and forming.

Some container lids, when on firmly, will allow sufficient gas to escape, but some will be situated so tightly that pressure will form and the lid can pop.  A good insurance policy is poking a very tiny hole in the lid with a pin.

You have made tremendous strides and I have no doubt that if you  continue to approach this as conscientiously as you have been, you'll continue to make tremendous strides.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2012, 09:39:43 AM »
Bob, thanks for the kind words.

Z, you're going to get different opinions when it comes to pre-cooking vegetable toppings, but I'm definitely in the pre-cook camp.

You'll want to pre-heat the stone well past when the pre-heat light goes off. My pre-heat light goes off and on at least 3 times during my hour pre-heat.  Put the stone in the oven close the door, crank the heat and don't open the door for 90 minutes.

You also want to ball a minimum of 6 hours prior to stretching, or, as you found out, the dough will fight you on the stretch.  I make the dough, ball it, refrigerate it for a day, re-ball it, and then refrigerate another day- 24 hours between balling and forming.

Some container lids, when on firmly, will allow sufficient gas to escape, but some will be situated so tightly that pressure will form and the lid can pop.  A good insurance policy is poking a very tiny hole in the lid with a pin.

You have made tremendous strides and I have no doubt that if you  continue to approach this as conscientiously as you have been, you'll continue to make tremendous strides.

I can not thank you enough for your help. I've got the feeling with the help I'm getting I'll get to a good point in pizza making soon.

I have a question. When you get that
I make the dough, ball it, refrigerate it for a day, re-ball it, and then refrigerate another day- 24 hours between balling and forming.  How long do you let it sit out of the fridge before you make the pizza? It has to get to room temperature, right?

#### scott123

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2012, 10:03:59 AM »
Z, tempering (leaving the dough at room temp prior to forming), can be a complicated subject.  I think the general consensus on the forum is to take most of the chill off the dough, but not all the chill off of it. I seem to recall seeing numbers in the 55-60 deg. realm.

My approach, in this regard, is not quite so exacting. I've done tests with doughs ranging from 45 deg. to 80 deg. and, while cooler temps seem to give me larger blisters- blisters that I tend to like, I really haven't noticed a huge difference between the different temps.

I also have had doughs that haven't risen quite as much as I've wanted by the time they came out of the fridge, so I've used an extended warm up time (and higher final temp) as a way of ramping up fermentation at the end.

I would try a few different temps and see what you like. It really isn't as cut and dry as some members portray it to be.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 12:21:22 AM by scott123 »

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2012, 12:54:53 PM »
Z,

I agree with scott123's answer to your question. Some of the larger pizza chains specify a temperature of around 55 degrees F in their manuals but I have never seen any worker measuring the temperature of dough balls. The actual temper time can vary quite widely. For example, all else being equal, in most places the dough will warm up (temper) faster in the summer than in the winter. The most common temper time that I have seen is about 1 1/2-2 hours, but that time can vary throughout the year. Over time, you will learn what works best in your setting. You will know from the look and feel when the dough is ready. However, the look and feel can and will vary for different types of doughs. There are just too many variables, especially in a home setting, to be able to give one-size-fits-all types of answers.

Peter

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2012, 02:06:12 PM »
Z, tempering (leaving the dough at room temp prior to forming), can be a complicated subject.  I think the general consensus on the forum is to take most of the chill off the dough, but not all the chill off of it. I seem to recall seeing numbers in the 55-60 deg. realm.

My approach, in this regard, is not quite so exacting. I've done tests with doughs ranging from 45 deg. to 80 deg. and, while cooler temps seem to give me larger blisters- blisters that I tend to like, I really haven't noticed a huge difference between the different temp.

I also have had doughs that haven't risen quite as much as I've wanted by the time they came out of the fridge, so I've used an extended warm up time (and higher final temp) as a way of ramping up fermentation at the end.

I would try a few different temps and see what you like. It really isn't as cut and dry as some members portray it to be.

Thanks for the reply. I think I understand. I guess my most annoying thing to get past now is the contracting of the dough. That's a major annoyance as I have the thing stretched to perfection (in my mind) then it contracts back. It's like peeing in the ocean trying to stop the tide.

Quote from: Pete-zza
Z,

I agree with scott123's answer to your question. Some of the larger pizza chains specify a temperature of around 55 degrees F in their manuals but I have never seen any worker measuring the temperature of dough balls. The actual temper time can vary quite widely. For example, all else being equal, in most places the dough will warm up (temper) faster in the summer than in the winter. The most common temper time that I have seen is about 1 1/2-2 hours, but that time can vary throughout the year. Over time, you will learn what works best in your setting. You will know from the look and feel when the dough is ready. However, the look and feel can and will vary for different types of doughs. There are just too many variables, especially in a home setting, to be able to give one-size-fits-all types of answers.

Thanks for the input. I guess it's a matter of practice makes perfect then. I'll have to get to making pizza.

#### moose13

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2012, 11:31:02 PM »
Looking better!
My best looking and tasting pizzas have a 3 day ferment. Don't get in a hurry here.
One thing you can try if you run into the white crust edge again. Get a paper towel and rub some olive oil on it.
If your cheese is looking done but want some color and crunch to the crust, Take your pie out, apply some oil around the crust edge, launch back into the oven for a minute or two. Cheating i know, but at least if you find yourself with cheese browning and white crust, you can help it along.

Practice makes perfect.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2012, 11:27:06 AM »
Looking better!
My best looking and tasting pizzas have a 3 day ferment. Don't get in a hurry here.
One thing you can try if you run into the white crust edge again. Get a paper towel and rub some olive oil on it.
If your cheese is looking done but want some color and crunch to the crust, Take your pie out, apply some oil around the crust edge, launch back into the oven for a minute or two. Cheating i know, but at least if you find yourself with cheese browning and white crust, you can help it along.

Practice makes perfect.

Thanks for the tip! I'm going to try to make some dough tonite. It'll be a 3 dayer as I'll cook Saturday nite. I wonder what the time limit is for cold fermenting?

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2012, 02:36:31 PM »
Thanks for the tip! I'm going to try to make some dough tonite. It'll be a 3 dayer as I'll cook Saturday nite. I wonder what the time limit is for cold fermenting?

Z,

If you are using the same dough formulation that you posted last, with 0.50% ADY, I think you should be fine for a three day cold ferment. You might squeak out another day, but that would depend on all of the temperatures to which the dough is subjected, which can vary from one home to another.

BTW, if you are using bread machine yeast, that is usually IDY, not ADY. So, if you are using bread machine yeast, you might lower that amount to 0.375%.

Peter

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2012, 10:25:34 AM »
Z,

If you are using the same dough formulation that you posted last, with 0.50% ADY, I think you should be fine for a three day cold ferment. You might squeak out another day, but that would depend on all of the temperatures to which the dough is subjected, which can vary from one home to another.

BTW, if you are using bread machine yeast, that is usually IDY, not ADY. So, if you are using bread machine yeast, you might lower that amount to 0.375%.

Peter

Thanks for the reply. That recipe I used was just plugging in numbers into the calculator. I was shocked that it even turned out well. LOL

I'm thinking of using your Papa John clone recipe. My wife and daughter love their pizza. I think I'll be giving it a try this weekend. Wish me luck.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2012, 06:59:56 AM »
Okay I'm trying a different dough this time. I'm going for the Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza recipe in reply number 24. It's a same day make. I followed the instructions to the letter. I did see that I used more IDY than 1/8 teaspoon. I used my scale and it seemed a good bit more. Oh well, I'm not sure how accrate the scale is but I got all the numbers spot on with it. My finished dough weight was 22.50 oz. The temperature was 82 degrees. So the numbers are somewhat close to Pete-zza's.

My daughter wants a meat lover's style pizza so that what we will be doing up.

Wish me luck.

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2012, 07:21:57 AM »
Z,

Yeast measurements can be tricky. You really need to have the right kind of scale to accurately weigh out small quantities of yeast. Also, yeast can change over time as it ages. For example, it can lose some of its leavening power with age, and it can pick up moisture from its surroundings if not properly stored. For these reasons, I usually suggest that users use the volume measurements for yeast produced by the dough calculating tools.

With respect to the dough ball weight, as you will note from Reply 311 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg156236/topicseen.html#msg156236, a PJ dough ball for a 14" pizza weighs around 20.25 ounces, plus or minus a quarter ounce. That is information that came after I posted in Reply 24 that you referenced. In your case, you can trim an ounce or two from your 22.5-ounce dough ball if you want to get a bit closer to a PJ dough ball weight for a 14" pizza.

Good luck with your pizza. Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2012, 06:46:54 AM »
Z,

Yeast measurements can be tricky. You really need to have the right kind of scale to accurately weigh out small quantities of yeast. Also, yeast can change over time as it ages. For example, it can lose some of its leavening power with age, and it can pick up moisture from its surroundings if not properly stored. For these reasons, I usually suggest that users use the volume measurements for yeast produced by the dough calculating tools.

With respect to the dough ball weight, as you will note from Reply 311 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg156236/topicseen.html#msg156236, a PJ dough ball for a 14" pizza weighs around 20.25 ounces, plus or minus a quarter ounce. That is information that came after I posted in Reply 24 that you referenced. In your case, you can trim an ounce or two from your 22.5-ounce dough ball if you want to get a bit closer to a PJ dough ball weight for a 14" pizza.

Good luck with your pizza. Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Thanks for your reply. I got sidetracked yesterday. I got free ticket to the Georgia Throwdown Music Festival. I put the dough in the fridge. Today I will make a fresh batch with the proper lower amount of yeast. I will cook both batches and compare. This should help to show the contrast of time, yeast, temp.

Wish me luck.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2012, 12:36:30 PM »
I finally made an excellent pizza. I say excellent because my daughter said it was the best she's ever eaten. I'll be using the Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza recipe again. It was amazingly easy to make into a round pie. My peel is only 12"dia. The pizza suffered some stuffling trying to get it on the stone as it was flopping over the sides of the peel.

Take a look and let me know what you think.

Edit:  I waited 90 minutes before cooking. The stone temp was 553 degrees. I forgot to put the rack in the higher position. I moved it up about 1/2 thru the cooking process.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 12:56:08 PM by zelichan »

#### Pete-zza

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2012, 08:09:11 PM »
I finally made an excellent pizza. I say excellent because my daughter said it was the best she's ever eaten. I'll be using the Pete-zza's Papa John's Clone Pizza recipe again.

Z,

In the face of your daughter's praise, I don't think anything more needs to be said. However, sometime you might want to try the PJ emergency clone dough formulation at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. That is a good emergency clone dough formulation in my opinion.

Peter

#### Chicago Bob

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2012, 08:23:57 PM »
Z,
Looks great,congratulations!
Your pizza is sorta in the shape of a "D".....D for daughter....maybe this is a thing of fortunate luck for you.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2012, 08:04:08 AM »
Z,

In the face of your daughter's praise, I don't think anything more needs to be said. However, sometime you might want to try the PJ emergency clone dough formulation at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. That is a good emergency clone dough formulation in my opinion.

Peter

Thanks I'll try that one as well. I feel like now I have a baseline. I'll be making that one each time. I'll also be making other doughs so I can keep on experimenting and having fun. Thanks for posting your work. I really appreciate it.

#### zelichan

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##### Re: Zelichan-Noobie's pies A journey to making a great pie
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2012, 08:05:25 AM »
Z,
Looks great,congratulations!
Your pizza is sorta in the shape of a "D".....D for daughter....maybe this is a thing of fortunate luck for you.

LOL I hadn't thought of that. It did get a little smushed getting it off the peel. It was really difficult and I thought I might mangle it beyond repair.  I've gotta bet a bigger peel for sure.