Pizza Hut Pan Pizza

[Biaviian]

Thanks.  I read the entire thread last week but I forgot about (or skimmed over) that post.  It still doesn't help me with getting the inner crust thinner while keeping the thickness of the outer crust though.  Maybe I should weight down the inner crust while it is in the fridge.  I'm not really sure.

[Puzzolento]

I don't see anyone mentioning the weirdest thing about Pizza Hut pan pizza. Years ago, I went to pick one up at a small store in Austin, and after the kid threw it in the box, he asked if I wanted butter on the crust. He was holding a spray can full of garlic butter! Until then, I had always assumed the tasty grease on the crust was something that oozed out of the dough. It amazed me that there was such a thing as spray-on butter.

I told him I would pass.

[scott123]

Talking about greasy Pizza Hut pizza....

I grew up, where I am now, in NJ eating, imo, at some of best pizza places on the planet. I loved the stuff.  I went to college out in Illinois, and it was there where I had Pizza Hut for the first time.

CAUTION- if you are easily grossed out or a huge fan of Pizza Hut and want to remain that way, DO NOT READ on!!!

Anyway...  It was a school thing, and they bought us as much pizza as we could eat. I've always been able to eat a lot, and back then was no exception. I gorged myself silly. It's kind of hard to remember exactly, but it could have been somewhere around the 3 pie mark.

When I came back to the dorm... I wasn't feeling too hot    This pizza had no intention whatsoever of staying down.  So, off to the bathroom I went where I proceeded to heave the entire meal into one single toilet bowl.  My body rejected it entirely. Now, I'm not one to really analyze what comes out of me (in any form), but this was really kind of hard to miss.  Sitting in the bowl was about 3 inches of reddish/bready muck and, floating on top of that, was 4 solid inches of crystal clear oil. 4 inches of oil!!!

I kid you not 

[Randy]

Fried pizza is just about the right description but that is the way it is suppose to be. 

The canola would have been my last choice since it can give an off flavor to the crust.

I currently use this recipe to make a Chicago deep dish style pizza and really enjoy this crossover recipe but I use just enough oil to make a good coating in the pan which is much less oil.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8410.0.html

Randy

[Biaviian]

It was either Canoloa or Olive Oil and I thought that Olive Oil would affect the flavor more.  Maybe I was wrong; I don't know.  I like the recipe you linked to and I think I'll give it a shot.  I asked in that thread but I'll ask here too.  How do you take the whole pizza out of the pan like that?

[Puzzolento]

Canola oil should be outlawed, except for frying fish.

[Randy]

Yes I use a spring form pan, a cheap nonstick one at that so all you have to do is take the side off and slide it off the bottom.

I have use a 10" straight sided cake pan but it can be a challenge to get it out but it can be done.

If you like this pan recipe, you will really like the Chicago version.

Randy

[gtsum2]

pan pizza is next on my list to try...I assume one can use a CI pan, or where is a good place to get a "pan pizza" pizza pan? 

This seems like a great and very informative site!

[Jackie Tran]

Glad to see you made it over here Gtsum.  This is (for now) my other playground.   I have only been here a couple of months and my pizza and pizza knowledge has improved a lot thanks to the many helpful forum members. 

Coincidentally enough I found this place looking for a PH pan pizza recipe.  The one posted on this site by PHXmngr is a great recipe.  I also posted a PH sauce recipe that's very close.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4452.0.html

Again, welcome and you'll have lots of fun with your pizza adventure.   BTW, I'm working on a new Primo set up.  If all goes well I'll post the results on the other forum.

Not sure about the pan, but i have read of members using thick cake pans that seem to work well.  I see nothing wrong with a CI pan but maybe someone with actual experience can chime in.  I have a Pampered chef deep dish pizza stone that works really well. 

Tran

[gtsum2]

thanks for the info...I may be bouncing some questions of you if you don't mind?!  Thanks again for telling me about this place...you were right...lots of good info here!

[Modegolf]

Please help!  I am into making PH pan pizzas now and need advice on proofing.

I understand you can proof the dough either BEFORE putting it into the fridge for 4-24 hours, or AFTER the dough has been refrigerated (just before dressing and baking).

Here are my questions:

1.  Is there any difference to the flavor and/or texture of the dough whether it is proofed before or after cold fermentation?

2.  Why proof at all?  For example, with the PJ Clone or a NY Style, there is only one rise then forming and baking.  Is there a simple rule that tells me when I should proof a dough (which is actually a second rise) and when one rise is sufficient?

Thank you for your help!

[Randy]

I think is best answer is, to some degree it will effect the flavor and the texture.  It is up to the individual decided how much.
If this is your first try I would stay with the recipe.

The individual rises(proof as you call them) also controls the texture.

Best to follow the recipe to get what the original author had in mind.

Randy

[Pete-zza]

Modegolf,

Sometimes the matter of whether the dough should be allowed to "proof", or rise, before or after cold fermentation is a philosophical one. For example, Tom Lehmann, of the American Institute of Baking and an acknowledged expert on pizza doughs, prefers to cold ferment pretty much all pizza doughs and shape them later, after the cold fermentation. An example of a dough recipe that Tom has recommended for pan pizzas and where the shaping is done after cold fermentation is at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=37687#37687.

Usually, when one wants to achieve above average volume in a pizza crust, the dough is allowed to "proof", or rise, before baking. This is common for Sicilian, pan style and Greek/pan pizzas, and focaccia as well. It can actually be used for almost any style, including NY and a Papa John's American style pizza, although most people do not use a proof approach for those styles. Those doughs are tempered for a brief period but, unliike the other styles mentioned above, they are not proofed in order to get added height in the finished crust.

Whether a dough is to be subjected to a single or multiple fermentations is usually dictated by the dough recipe used. For example, Neapolitan style doughs often go through a bulk rise and individual rises after division. Emergency doughs intended to be made and used within a few hours also often go through two fermentation periods. I have seen a few dough recipes where dough balls are punched down one or more times during fermentation, both at room temperature and in the refrigerator, but those are not the most common methods. Absent a recipe and instructions to guide you as to when to use multiple fermentation periods, it will usually be as a result of a lot of experience and experimentation with doughs to tell you when you should use a single or multiple fermentations. There are no simple rules and often the course to take is not particularly intuitive.

You can read some other thoughts that I have had on this general subject at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3798.msg31749.html#msg31749. You might also read the other posts in that thread.

I agree with Randy that one should follow the instructions given for a particular dough recipe. All too often, people freelance and when they get poor results they end up blaming the recipe rather than their deviations.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Yes, I will third that as well (can I say that?  )  Stick with the recipe.

In my very limited pizza making experience, I have use both for different purposes.  The first proof or rise is commonly referred to as a "bulk rise" or even rest period.  From what I have read and have used it for, this period is commonly used when very little yeast is used in the formula with a goal of cold fermenting in the fridge for several days.  This kicks starts the yeast so that it will slowly work it's magic on the dough while in deep sleep.    The dough will usually slowly rise while in the fridge.  It is still working, but it's activity has been slowed down.  Without this bulk rise or rest period to kick start the yeast, the dough may not rise as much in the fridge.    The purpose of letting the dough cold ferment for long periods of time (vs baking it right away)  is to allow the yeast to make it's waste product and make the dough more flavorful.  It also changes the texture a bit. 
  The 2nd use of a bulk rise is commonly done when a sourdough starter (preferment) is used.  It is usually allowed to bulk rise or ferment at room temps for 4-20 hours or so prior to baking.  Depending on how much starter you use, you can leave it to bulk rise for shorter or longer periods. 

The room temp proof is used to allow the dough to come up to room temps after being in the fridge at a temp of 40F.  During this time, the yeast's activity is sped up and more gas (air bubbles) is produce leavening the dough further.  It serves 2 purpose (in my mind).  1) it allows the dough to become more pliable and workable. Easier to stretch and make a skin.  Some ppl stretch the dough within 1 hour of room temp proofing (or even just warming) while others will allow the dough to sit at room temps upwards of 9 hours without any problems.  Secondly, the room proofing allows the yeast to work further making the dough lighter and airier. You don't want the dough to double in size during this stage as you run the risk of getting a deflated pie.  The yeast can exhaust all of it's food source(s) and stop working, thus giving you little to no rise in the oven (oven spring).  You'll want the dough to proof to about 50-75% of it's original volume, but not doubled (100%).

How long you bulk rise, cold ferment, or room proof is really dependent on the amount of yeast (vs the amount of dough).  Less yeast and you can go longer with all of these times.  More yeast and you have to shorten the times.  That's why it's best to follow the recipe until you develop a feel for using a particular brand of yeast or a certain starter. 

This is my understanding of the subject, but please correct me if I'm wrong.  Hope that helps. 

[Modegolf]

Thank you all for responding to my post on proofing.  I appreciate the speed and thoroughness of your answers.  You have helped boost my knowledge of home pizza making to the next level!

I now feel very confident about my ability to make a PJ Clone and a PH Pan Clone.  I have made LOTS of them and you have provided the last pieces of the puzzle for me.

In light of this newfound confidence, I have decided to tackle the Detroit Style (Buddy’s) pizza.  I am very nervous about the hydration level, but I will be sure to post to that thread with results and questions!

Thanks again for all your help. 

[Pete-zza]

Tran,

Tom Lehmann often instructs the posters at the PMQ Think Tank to let their doughs temper AT room temperature rather than TO room temperature. As you will see from his PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7271&p=48918&hilit=#p48918, he even capitalizes the AT and TO just as I did. Quite often the room temperature in a particular situation is in the right range for tempering but you can imagine how letting a dough rise to a temperature of 90 degrees F (which is quite common near an oven in a pizzeria) or to a temperature of 60 degrees F (which might prevail in someone's kitchen in the dead of winter) would be unlikely to produce the desired outcomes.

On the matter of exhaustion of the yeast, I think it is perhaps more accurate to say that oven spring is more closely related to the moisture held in the dough at the time of baking and the pH of the dough and the related residual sugar level at the time of baking. You can read my quote from Prof. Calvel's book (The Taste of Bread) on this subject at Reply 136 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg86732/topicseen.html#msg86732. You will also note that no yeast is needed in a dough to get oven spring, as Norma demonstrated recently in the last photo in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10703.msg95354.html#msg95354.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks for the info Peter. I have recently changed my mind about the possibility of proofing in an hours time. I now do a proof at room temp rather than to room temps myself. Because I'm making higher hydration doughs these days, I have an easier time handling cool dough as oppose to room temp dough.
  I also didn't mean to imply that yeast is soley responsible for oven spring.  I only noted exhaustion of the dough since I have noticed that I get flatter pies if I cold ferment or proof to long.  I am aware that moisture and ultimately steam plays a large role in oven spring. It is fascinating to note that oven spring can be achieved without the use of yeast though.

Thanks again.   

[xPHmgr]

I guess when I originally posted this topic I should have given a little more background and more information in general... hind sight is 20/20... so here is my attempt in that direction.

If you have any questions... please ask...

I manage a Pizza Hut back in the late 1970's and early 1980's.  When I first worked there, we only sold Thin' N Crispy and Pan pizza.  So that is all have direct knowledge of.  When I first started we only made Thin' N Crispy pizzas... and the Pan pizza was introduced while I was working there.

I did not write down the recipes that we used to make the dough... but we did make the dough from scratch in the store every day.

I did not know that there was a difference in flours and so I did not even pay any attention to the types of flour that was used.  I do know that Pan pizza flour is different from Thin' N Crispy flour because when the Pan pizza was rolled out we were instructed to NEVER use Thin' N Crispy flour for Pan pizza... even if we ran out.

So I don't know anything about the frozen disks that I guess PH makes their Pan pizza from today.  I suspect that they went that route to keep their recipes more under lock and key than when I worked there.

For Pan pizza we used ordinary cake pans.  Not thick walled pans... just normal ordinary cake pans.

The Pan pizza was for all intents and purposes a fried pizza... which you have no doubt surmised by the quantity of oil that was used in the bottom of each pan.

I do remember a couple of things that stood out when they rolled out the Pan pizza.  The first thing I mentioned already and that is that the flour was different from the Thin' N Crispy flour.  The second thing was the "additions" to the Pan pizza dough that was not in the Thin' N Crispy dough.  I noticed these because I had made so many batches of Thin' N Crispy dough that when they told us what was in the Pan pizza dough... it just stuck out like a sore thumb.  The items that they added were; sugar and nonfat dry milk.

So if you see a recipe for Thin' N Crispy dough with sugar in it... it is wrong (at least it is not a PH Thin' N Crispy recipe from the late 70's and early 80's)... or if you see a Pan dough recipe without sugar and nonfat dry milk in it... it is wrong... at least not of the late 70's/early 80's vintage.

I remember that the Thin' N Crispy dough was a fairly dry dough.  Often times it would not even have collected all of the flour into the dough ball... there would always be some dry crumbs (my words... probably not the technical terms...) which you would just include in the food grade 40 Gal can with food liner.

I say all of that about the Thin' N Crispy dough... mainly to point out that the Pan dough was different... again... so it stood out.

The Pan dough ball had completely incorporated all of the flour into the dough ball.  So the Pan pizza dough was a much more like what you would normally think a dough would be like.

The Pan dough we would take out of the mixer (big Hobart floor standing mixer) and portion them (weigh them) and put them through the top part of our dough sheeter (of a 2 part dough sheeter).  If I had to guess... I'd say that it would take the dough and make it to be about 3/4 of an inch think.  Then we would stretch it to be more round (because it would come out of the dough sheeter being oblong-ed) and place it into an oiled pan.  These would sit on the counter (room temperature) until the dough had risen to be about 1 1/2 inches thick.  Once they had risen we would put them into the reach-in refrigerator.  We would only make enough Pan pizza dough that we would use that day... because at the end of the day we would throw out whatever Pan pizza dough we had not used.

[Pete-zza]

xPHmgr,

Welcome back. A lot of our members owe you for the success they have enjoyed with your PH pan pizza recipe.

The last PH ingredients list I have seen is the 2008 document at http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%202008.pdf. If you look at the ingredients list for the Pan Dough, you can tell that the dough is frozen because the yeast is very high up in the list. That means that PH is using more yeast than any other ingredient other than the flour and water. The reason for using much more yeast is because yeast cells are destroyed by freezing. So, to compensate for that loss, they just use a lot more yeast. That moves the yeast high up in the list. Some of the chemical-sounding ingredients in the Pan Dough list are also often used to make frozen doughs. You will also note that whey is now used in the PH Pan Dough.

If you look at the ingredients list for the Thin 'N Crispy Dough, you will see that there is no sugar, as was the case during your PH tenure, and also that the yeast is in its normal position near the bottom of the ingredients list. That tells us that the Thin 'N Crispy crusts are made in the normal manner, and are most likely par-baked crusts. Those crusts can be frozen for delivery to their stores, where they can be defrosted/refrigerated for use in filling orders. I might be wrong on this, but I do not believe that Thin 'N Crispy Doughs are made fresh in the PH stores anymore. I understand that PH is using fresh doughs in some of their stores outside of the U.S., such as in Malaysia and the Phillipines.

Peter

EDIT (4/20/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the above Pizza Hut pdf document, see http://web.archive.org/web/20100602083641/http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%20September%202008.pdf

[Randy]

xPHmgr, good to see you posting again.  I took your recipe and used it to make a pizza in the Chicago style.  It is wonderful adaptation of your excellent recipe. 

I made it Sunday a a matter of fact.

Randy

Deep Dish pizza
In the Chicago style
Based on xPHmgr Rexipe
Tuesday, June 15, 2010

For a single 10” spring form pan or cake pan

6.3 oz water room temperature
1 tsp instant dry yeast
.3 oz or 1 1/2  Tablespoons Powdered Milk
11.3 oz King Arthur Bread flour
1 teaspoon salt
.2 oz or 1/2 Tablespoon sugar
.5 oz  or 1 Tablespoon of Classico Olive oil

·   In a stand mixer (KitchenAid) fitted with a dough hook, add the water, yeast and powdered milk.  Run on stir  or low speed until yeast has fully dissolved.
·   Mix the remaining dry ingredients together in a separate container and add them to the mixer while still on stir speed.
·   Switch to speed 2 or knead speed until most of the flour and water have mixed.
·   Add oil while the dough is still scrappy then it will quickly form a moist, smooth cohesive ball.
·   Knead on speed 2 for 10 minutes
·   Put 2 tablespoons of  classico olive oil in the 10" pan to make sure that the oil completely covers the bottom.
·   After the dough has been kneaded for 10 minutes, remove it from the mixing bowl and roll it out to the diameter of the bottom of the pan press it into the pan stretching the dough with your finger tips trying not to get too much oil on the pan sides so the dough will stick better.  Press the dough in place so the sides come up about 11/2"-2”
·   Cover with plastic wrap and let the dough rise for 2 hours on the counter then place the pan (still covered) into the refrigerator for at least 4 hours (up to 24 hours).

WHEN READY TO MAKE

·   Remove dough from the refrigerator two to three hours in advance then press down the bottom of the dough with your finger tip in a random fashion then using your fingers press the dough, flatting the sides in place.
·   After two or three hours, preheat oven to 450F.  Add a half pound of mozzarella to the bottom, then topping of your choice then a cup of sauce with 1/2 of a small can of diced tomatoes well drained added, put that on top of the pizza.
·   Bake at 450 °F for 20 minutes.