Author Topic: Rise Time Question  (Read 3282 times)

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Offline ephman

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Rise Time Question
« on: December 04, 2005, 11:26:26 PM »

i've been using this recipe that Pete-zza gave me a while ago:

100%, Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, 7.62 oz.
57.3%, Water, 4.36 oz.
2.4%, Salt, 0.18 oz. (between 7/8 and 1 t.)
1.79%, Extra-virgin olive oil, 0.14 oz. (a bit less than 7/8 t.)
0.30%, IDY, 0.023 oz. (a bit more than 1/5 t., or about 9 pinches
between the thumb and forefinger)

what would be the ideal rise time for this, same day, 24 hours, or even 48 hours?  should it go in the fridge or stay on the counter, is there any difference?

thanks for the bandwidth,

Offline chiguy

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Re: Rise Time Question
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2005, 01:25:57 AM »
 Hello Ephman,
 The lower yeast amounts under 0.75%(recipe0.30%) are reserved for a slow fermentation in the refridgerator for 12-72 hours. The time you're dough may be ready also has alot do with the finished dough temperature. A dough temperature between 72F-84F is recommended for a overnight fridge rise. The salt is also a factor in the fermentation process, salt usage in dough is generally between 1% - 2.5%.The salt is used to control fermantation among other reasons. Any active yeast dough can always be used same day,but when is the question?? With dough temp,yeast level,salt level, room temp,consistency problems and shorter life, It's just easier to manage the refridge dough. This is the method i use for these reasons alone. I will let someone else answer the question of which method makes a better tasting dough retarded or same day?  Goodluck, Chiguy
« Last Edit: December 05, 2005, 01:27:47 AM by chiguy »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Rise Time Question
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2005, 11:02:20 AM »

chiguy has correctly mentioned the many factors that can influence a dough and its ultimate performance. However, I think the rules are somewhat different for a 00 flour such as the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour.

In Italy, and especially around Naples, where the Caputo 00 flour is arguably the most dominant 00 flour, it is rare for pizzaioli to use cold fermentation. The Caputo 00 flour has low enzyme performance (it is unmalted and has a high falling number) and will tolerate long fermentation times at room temperature. The duration of the fermentation will be governed by the many factors mentioned by chiguy, and it is not uncommon in this regard for pizzaioli to make adjustments to the ingredients to compensate for room temperature and other factors that might influence the fermentation process. Depending on the season, for example, the amount of hydration, yeast and/or salt can be individually or collectively varied so that the dough stays within the time frames required by the pizzaioli to operate their businesses efficiently and produce uniformly good results. The pizzaioli might also have special rooms or areas for fermenting the doughs and carefully control fermentation temperatures, with the ideal temperature being around 64.4-68 degrees F.

In the U.S., some pizza operators, such as A16 in San Francisco, have modified the Neapolitan methods and formulations to accommodate cold fermentation. And it has done so very successfully judging from the widespread acclaim A16 has received for its pizzas. It may be debated whether this is the best use for the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, and whether it produces authentic results, but it is a fact that cold fermentation is being done and with high acceptance of the finished product.

My practice is usually to use a same-day room temperature fermentation or an overnight room temperature fermentation when using the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. When using a weaker 00 flour, such as the BelAria 00 flour, I am more likely to use a same-day room temperature fermentation because it is not as well adapted for long fermentation times at room temperature. There are occasions, however, as when making an A16 dough or when scheduling considerations prevent me from using a 00 dough when I'd like, where I will cold ferment the dough for later use. But, whether I use a room temperature fermentation or cold fermentation, I watch the dough carefully for signs of impending overfermentation. Unfortunately, these signs don't always jump out at you. Some room-temperature fermented doughs, especially those using a natural preferment in small quantities, may rise hardly at all. A 00 dough using commercial yeast, and especially in higher amounts, will usually rise noticeably and can be subjected to more than one rise (usually two), but one still needs to watch the dough so that it doesn't overrise and start to collapse. In this respect, 00 doughs are more fragile than those made from stronger flours, such as our domestic bread and high-gluten flours which have higher protein levels and can tolerate long fermentation times, especially if unmalted. Ultimately, it comes down to experience, which comes from practice, practice, practice.

It is hard to generalize on these matters, but I would not want to go beyond say, 16-18 hours, for a room temperature fermented Caputo 00 dough using commercial yeast and where the room temperature is around 70 degrees F. That time period might be extended if a natural preferment is used, in which case it is possible to exceed 24 hours in my experience. A cold fermented Caputo 00 dough might last a few days or so under refrigeration, but its ultimate performance will be influenced by one or more of the factors mentioned by chiguy and discussed above.

From my experience, the best crust flavor will come from a room-temperature fermented dough using a natural preferment. I personally have not detected big differences in crust flavor for room-temperature or cold fermented Caputo 00 doughs using commercial yeast, but theoretically the dough that has the most flavor-contributing byproducts of fermentation should produce the best crust flavor, however achieved.


Offline scpizza

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Re: Rise Time Question
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2007, 12:50:18 PM »
I just did a comparison between slow and long rises.

Same recipe, Caputo Pizzeria, 5% of water starter in both cases.  One batch went 48 hours at 65F and another 12 hours at 90F.  Both were timed to be ready at the same time.

The resulting crusts were so similar in consistency and flavor that I could hardly tell which was which.  I was expecting a better flavor from the long slow rise, but didn't taste it.

Offline chiguy

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Re: Rise Time Question
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2007, 04:31:44 PM »
  In early/mid 2005 some member were working on a Retarded dough method for a Neopolitan recipe. At the time it was the Re-engineering A-16 Pizza in S.F.
 Since then much has been discussed about proper fermentation of Caputo flour and proper temperature fermentation of a Neopolitan. I spent an entire day last year reading all of the post by PizzaNapoletana including this one where he discussed the importance of proper fermentation temperatures that would have lead me to a different conclusion.(reply125) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.125.html
 I will say that there are many other members with much more experience in the Neopolitan section and for this reason i do not post here. Although i am still an advocate of slow long fermention i no longer believe a refridgerator is the only way to achieve this.          Chiguy