Author Topic: Forno bravo napolino  (Read 16465 times)

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shuboyje

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 10:51:41 PM »
When I have a chance I will try and find that article with Steffano Ferrara, but have tried without luck in the past.  It is a pretty distinct article because there are pictures of him being interviewed in it, which I have never seen anywhere else.

Outside of Marco, and SF I have not found much along the line of information, interviews or dialogue on Neapolitan ovens.
-Jeff

TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2013, 11:01:40 PM »
Empirical data, much less scientific logic, says that a straight flue will always outperform one with bends.  That is not even a debatable question.

Outperform in what way? I’m not sure that you’ve looked close enough at the architecture. The cross-section of the flue from the vent opening to the bottom of the flue pipe (the space where the gas travels through the dome) is 33% larger than the cross-section of my chimney. Since there is no constriction until the gas reaches the bottom of the chimney pipe, for all intents and purposes, the draw is straight up. When have you seen a Neapolitan oven with any black soot on the face for that matter?

Quote
That leaves the concept of using the flue heat to assist in heating the dome, which I have no data on other than basic thermodynamic principles which argue against.  If the flue is insulated from the oven and still bends, what is the utility, other than moving the flue from it's position on the front of the oven?

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. What insulation is between the bricks of the dome and the flue gas?

Quote
The only realistic utility of the traditional Neapolitan entry design is the access it gives to the oven.  The same can be achieved with a vertical stack.  Let's not get started on the efficiency of a cast iron front for the oven......

I think it’s steel not cast iron. Have you reached in and felt around behind it? It’s not bare metal The amount of heat lost through the façade is insignificant.

You still haven’t answered the question why, if the design is so flawed, hasn’t anyone actually built a better performing oven?

The only NP oven I can think of with a straight up vent is the Cirigliano Forni. I don’t see where they have made any claims about the chimney system. Rather from pictures I’ve seen, it appears to be about facilitating assembly not oven function – and you want to talk about a heat sink up front…
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2013, 11:36:19 PM »
The design is not flawed, the execution is the issue.

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 03:44:59 PM »
Your right.  As I said in my introduction I am not at all proficient at punctuation or using a keyboard.  I do try to learn from my mistakes, so thanks for the heads up.
And not one but 2 spaces.....
Sorry, see above

Bill

Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 04:23:25 PM »
It is just hard to read.  Even if not puncuated correctly, a couple spaces after each sentence and a line break after 2 or three related sentences is fine.

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 05:03:25 PM »
I completely understand your point.  Rereading my own posts is like listening to someone in the middle of a manic episode talk for ten minutes without taking a breath.

Could you tell me how to quote a specific sentence of a post without quoting the whole post so that I can reply point by point.It's so much easier to follow.

Thanks

Bill

Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 05:13:11 PM »
I do it the hard way:  Highlight the area to quote, then hit CNTL C, move the cursor to where you want the quote and hit CNTL V.  Don't forget to put it in quote marks.

Jackie Tran

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2013, 05:21:09 PM »
Very Interesting discussion.

Could you tell me how to quote a specific sentence of a post without quoting the whole post so that I can reply point by point.It's so much easier to follow.

I copy and paste it in the reply box.  Highlighted and then Bold it by hitting the "B" in the left hand corner.

dhorst

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2013, 05:35:04 PM »
I do it the hard way:  Highlight the area to quote, then hit CNTL C, move the cursor to where you want the quote and hit CNTL V.  Don't forget to put it in quote marks.
That's the way I do it, too.  I'm not very sophisticated and I'm still getting used to things around here.

I will say in regards to writing in general, two spaces between sentences is correct.  Also, if you read it aloud, you will generally know when you need a comma or need to start another sentence.  If you're out of breath, then you definitely need to start another sentence and or paragraph--unless you're a beat poet like Ginsberg.

Paragraphs are very helpful to organize thoughts and give the reader a moment to think about what you've just said.  Also, for someone like me, it takes a bit to absorb some of this mind blowing technological information that is put out there.  Yes, I can do the math, but I need a moment here and there so my head doesn't explode.

Sorry that I went off topic.  I'm very interested in the actual information regarding ovens, construction, indoors or outdoors, etc.  But gee, sometimes you guys make my head spin.  Seriously, I appreciate all of the input; if I end up building my own WFO, this site is priceless as far as what I need to take into consideration.  Now about that Black Stone...

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2013, 06:46:24 PM »
Wow.....This forum rocks.....So many immediate replies to help a neanderthal man.

Let's see if I can do this

"Can you point me to the website of any of the Neapolitan builders who makes such a claim? Not only do I not remember ever seeing this, I can’t remember ever reading any specific claims about why the traditional Neapolitan oven vent is built the way it is."

Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction but give no comparative data. This is my point exactly.

"Such as? And what would the changes improve specifically?"

Improve is a subjective term but, in term of efficiency of the mobile units I would say a few more inches of insulation around the soldier course may make them save fuel and radiate less heat.Would this make a better pizza....I'm sure not, but it would make it easier to be that guy working the oven everyday.
As for as functionality,  and any ovens ability to produce great Neapolitan pizza at high throughput the best improvement I could thank to make would be putting Mario of Canne Rosso in front of it.

Bill

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2013, 07:02:08 PM »
I can extract the quotes it seems, but the only way I can get the red vertical bar with the posters info and the highlighted quote is to

Find post that contains the line of text I want

Click insert quote

Go back to reply box and erase with my backspace button everything I don't want.

Is there any easier way.....Help

Bill
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 07:47:08 PM by txtanner »

Ronzo

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2013, 07:37:11 PM »
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

Former NY'er living in Texas
http://newtexianbrew.com - http://pinterest.com/NewTexianBrew

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2013, 07:58:30 PM »
My wife says space before the period is her friend.

Bill

thezaman

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2013, 08:03:34 AM »
i can report on the 70 i have had one for three years. i love this little oven!! the only thing you are getting with the tiled oven is its Neapolitan oven look, it does look beautiful! .i do not think it will cook any different. if you are handy buy the kit as was mentioned earlier. you could do the same thing as they did and save a lot of money. the vent would be a challenge, and i doubt you will see any difference in cooking.
the pizza coming from that oven is no different than my bigger forno bravo that i use for catering. it is a challenge not burning the leading edge in that it sits 4 inches from the flame,but it makes you a better cook for it. two pies first from the 70 the second from casa 100 the only difference is how i prepared my cheese the first was torn from a ball the second was cut and sliced.

TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2013, 10:25:54 AM »
Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction but give no comparative data. This is my point exactly.

Bill,

Can you point me to some examples?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2013, 12:55:09 PM »
.
So why is it that no one has built an oven with a straight stack that bakes a better Neapolitan pizza than a traditional oven?

.

My guess would be because no one would buy it.It would cease to look like a traditional Neapolitan oven,there's an old saying in the restaurant biz"They eat the steak but it's the sizzle they buy".

Outperform in what way? I’m not sure that you’ve looked close enough at the architecture. The cross-section of the flue from the vent opening to the bottom of the flue pipe (the space where the gas travels through the dome) is 33% larger than the cross-section of my chimney. Since there is no constriction until the gas reaches the bottom of the chimney pipe, for all intents and purposes, the draw is straight up. When have you seen a Neapolitan oven with any black soot on the face for that matter?

I agree with you here to an extent about this but here lies the argument some are making" why not insulate the dome to gain effeciancy and build the vent over it"

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. What insulation is between the bricks of the dome and the flue gas?

I believe he may be suggesting It should be

I think it’s steel not cast iron. Have you reached in and felt around behind it? It’s not bare metal The amount of heat lost through the façade is insignificant.

Some use steel and some use cast iron. Sf uses cast iron,his name is cast into it. I'm sure you used the word facade for lack of a better word but to clarify this is not a facade(purely for looks and has no structural purpose). In my opinion this piece of plate and the steel pieces attached to it are genius and what separate this design from pomeii style ovens.

This plate and its arch serve multiple purposes.

It allows much greater access to the cooking floor than the deep brick arch and throat of the pompeii due to the greater angles you can turn your peel.

More importantly it completes the solder course and serves as the brick arch to resist the down and outward forces of the dome.  This is done by the all the bricks which make up the arch and entry in the pompeii.  You could argue the efficiency goes to the Neapolitan here because those bricks are sucking up heat and losing it up the flue.

IT's the structure that supports the vent.....to this plate angle iron is attached and to this a curved piece of angle( the piece that's visible on a finished oven}  that serves as a lintel to carry the bricks that make up the vent entry.

This plate can be insulated and from the pictures I've seen they do some. Not much but some.But then again wouldn't any heat rising up from this plate  help to create draw in the vent?  I have seen black smoke on the steel but never on the outside of the oven.
.
You still haven’t answered the question why, if the design is so flawed, hasn’t anyone actually built a better performing oven?

I don't thank anyone has,but I plan to and hopefully the world will beat a path to my door.I doubt the world would though because I only have two vowels in my last name.   As I stated the ovens work great so any improvements would be incremental at best.I'm thinking evolutionary as apposed to revolutionary with absolutely no change in aesthetics.  I'm actually leaning toward a trailer unit. That maybe an untapped market.

Great looking pizza Zaman,just goes to show the Pizzaiolo is the greatest improvement you can make to any oven. I've seen lotsa pictures of your pizzas too Txcraigs and you got it goinng on bigtime as well.  That Acunto rocks.

Bill
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 01:11:18 PM by txtanner »

TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2013, 01:16:36 PM »
I'm sure you used the word facade for lack of a better word but to clarify this is not a facade(purely for looks and has no structural purpose). In my opinion this piece of plate and the steel pieces attached to it are genius and what separate this design from pomeii style ovens.

This plate and its arch serve multiple purposes.

It allows much greater access to the cooking floor than the deep brick arch and throat of the pompeii due to the greater angles you can turn your peel.

More importantly it completes the solder course and serves as the brick arch to resist the down and outward forces of the dome.  This is done by the all the bricks which make up the arch and entry in the pompeii.  You could argue the efficiency goes to the Neapolitan here because those bricks are sucking up heat and losing it up the flue.

IT's the structure that supports the vent.....to this plate angle iron is attached and to this a curved piece of angle( the piece that's visible on a finished oven}  that serves as a lintel to carry the bricks that make up the vent entry.

This plate can be insulated and from the pictures I've seen they do some. Not much but some.But then again wouldn't any heat rising up from this plate  help to create draw in the vent?  I have seen black smoke on the steel but never on the outside of the oven.

It may accomplish some or all of these things to varying degrees, but you left out THE reason it is there. The biscotto floor tiles are wider than the mouth of the oven, so you need to be able to remove the plate to allow them to pass through when replacing the floor.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2013, 02:02:33 PM »
I didn't know that it WAS removable.  Cool!

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2013, 02:36:05 PM »
Bill,

Can you point me to some examples?

Look down the page for the article in English.His oven is compared to an industrial with no data.It's just better.

It may accomplish some or all of these things to varying degrees, but you left out THE reason it is there. The biscotto floor tiles are wider than the mouth of the oven, so you need to be able to remove the plate to allow them to pass through when replacing the floor.

I left that fact out because I didn't want it to sound like toooo genius.Check out these pictures.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26441.40.html   There ain't no way those tiles are coming out of this oven without a big freakin hammer or a grinder with a diamond wheel.

That may be the case with your oven but I don't think they all use the same size tiles, a 24x12 would fit through the door. And I would consider it a feature as opposed to THE reason the oven uses this plate.That's a convenience when replacing tiles.  Kinda like saying the reason a car has front fenders is so you have a place to put  beer and wrenches while you work on the motor.Works great for that but it ties a lot of other important stuff together too

Bill

« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 02:56:38 PM by txtanner »

TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2013, 04:45:14 PM »

Look down the page for the article in English.His oven is compared to an industrial with no data.It's just better.

I was hoping that since you wrote Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction” you could point me to even one quote directly on one of their websites where they promote their product to the industry – not a clipping from some random Italian food magazine. You are right about the point made being vague though…

Quote
I left that fact out because I didn't want it to sound like toooo genius.Check out these pictures.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26441.40.html   There ain't no way those tiles are coming out of this oven without a big freakin hammer or a grinder with a diamond wheel.

That may be the case with your oven but I don't think they all use the same size tiles, a 24x12 would fit through the door. And I would consider it a feature as opposed to THE reason the oven uses this plate.That's a convenience when replacing tiles.  Kinda like saying the reason a car has front fenders is so you have a place to put  beer and wrenches while you work on the motor.Works great for that but it ties a lot of other important stuff together too

Bill

I can assure you it is THE reason. When was the last time you saw a Neapolitan oven with more than four tiles? Why would different 120cm ovens use different size tiles? Last time I checked, there was only one way to divide a circle into 4 equal pieces. All the things you noted could easily be accomplished by other means. Replacing the floor tiles? Not so much. In no case that I know of does the metal plate support the vent.

Here is a picture of the floor being replaced in a MV (and the oven right after it was delivered new for reference).

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

banjobutt

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2013, 05:48:30 PM »
I have the Forno Bravo Primavera 70 which I think is basically the same oven just with different packaging.  I have had mine for about a year and I really enjoy it. Before that I used a ceramic grill (Primo XL) to approximate Neo pizza. The smaller oven was a compromise but I really wanted a prebuilt oven and I wanted it located on my deck so it would be very close to my patio slider enabling me to use it year around. I do have a large patio where I could have put a larger oven but it would not be as convenient going from the food prep area (kitchen) to the oven.  Advantages of the P70 are quick heat up times, lower wood consumption, only steps from my kitchen. Some disadvantages is it is small, a one pizza at a time oven and it takes more skill to use the smaller oven. I have used a friend’s 36” oven and it is much more forgiving with the extra space. Once the oven is up to temp I will remove some of the coals just to maximize hearth space. Also the smaller oven cools quicker which can be good for bread baking but loses lot of heat over night (less mass). I get very good results but again requires a bit more skill for heat management. It snows where I live and I do keep the oven covered when not in use.
So the P70 was a compromise but I would make the same decision if given a do over. It worked for me.

TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2013, 05:58:43 PM »
I have to correct myself on one thing I wrote - here is a NP oven with more than 4 floor tiles - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26441.msg269614.html#msg269614 - and it appears that this configuration allows them to have a much smaller opening in the soldier course. Notwithstanding - four tiles certainly appears to be the standard. I would suspect because it has less seams.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

shuboyje

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2013, 06:23:54 PM »
I agree that the front is removable and that feature is used when they replace the floors, I simply don't think it is that elegant of a solution.  They still put brick and mortar in place above the cast iron arch insert which needs to be removed.  It also leaves a large portion of the dome unsupported which is not only a risk to the oven, but a risk to the guy sticking his head in there.  Don't get me wrong, it works and has worked for much longer then I have been on this earth, but it is not elegant.  My ideal is a 5 piece floor that can fit through the door, but we can't even get low conductivity brick in tile sizes here let alone the shapes we want, so you can throw ideal out the window.
-Jeff

txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2013, 10:46:11 PM »
I was hoping that since you wrote Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction” you could point me to even one quote directly on one of their websites where they promote their product to the industry – not a clipping from some random Italian food magazine. You are right about the point made being vague though…

.nce).

That was a random article but it was on the SF website.But again all oven makers(Americans too) make these vague claims.

I can assure you it is THE reason. When was the last time you saw a Neapolitan oven with more than four tiles? Why would different 120cm ovens use different size tiles? Last time I checked, there was only one way to divide a circle into 4 equal pieces. All the things you noted could easily be accomplished by other means. Replacing the floor tiles? Not so much. In no case that I know of does the metal plate support the vent.

Here is a picture of the floor being replaced in a MV (and the oven right after it was delivered new for reference).

The pictures don't lie...that guy has got his head in that oven don't he.That explains why those ovens have such a large plate on the front and the opening is so large.

But what about all that ruble on the floor?It might just be laying there from something else but it does bring up some questions.The plate on this design maybe just a facade but its because something else is serving the structural functions.Something has got to support the dome.  That maybe the ruble in the floor.  Looks like you gotta tear up some stuff to replace the floor.  Thanks for posting the picture and I stand corrected. Never say never.....or always. You just gave me a lot more research to do bro

Bill
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 10:52:46 PM by txtanner »

TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2013, 11:08:19 PM »
I think the rubble on the floor is the old oven floor. They break it up to get it out.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage