Author Topic: Attempts at Detroit Style  (Read 1228 times)

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Offline derricktung

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Attempts at Detroit Style
« on: November 22, 2015, 02:43:57 PM »
So I finally took the plunge and got some pans, and gave it a whirl yesterday.  Since I was gone all day and hosting at night, I wasn't sure if the dough would be okay at room temp (68 degrees) for extended periods of time.  (I hadn't had a chance to read all other folks' experiences yet).  Stuck the dough in the pan, into the fridge, and then gave it 2 hours at room temps before I topped and baked.

Not as much rise as I would've liked... (I see now that it can tolerate a pretty long room temp rise).  Also, probably pulled it out of the oven a bit early (still a bit of a gumline) but I'm liking the potential thus far.

100% AP Flour
75% hydration
2% ADY
1.5% Salt

Local made pepperoni, onions, green peppers, mushrooms, and more pepperoni.  Cheese was a mix of mozz, brick, and Monterrey jack.

« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 03:03:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 01:08:08 AM »
Pies look great! Are you using Lloyd pans?

One thing I've learned with this style, cooking In a home/range oven with
These can be difficult!

Tonight during service I took my IR Temp gun and shot it where I had been starting the pies in the work range. 425 f on the steel... In an oven set to 550. To the left and right, under 450. Middle, 525. I can only imagine what the air temps Are on the different Racks, but cooked on the top the day
Before yesterday and the bottom was BLONDE. I think the lower bottom temp is also leading to my less crispy bottoms. It's a hassle to juggle these bakes.

Also, im a firm believer pan pizzas need to be finished out of the pan and on a stone.

Still, my best results have been finishing in the pan on a burner or flattop. I think baking in a deck oven on a superheated stone continuously pushes heat through the pan into the bottom, making it crispier than I've been getting so far. Most of my Favorite slice joints in NYC also finish out of the pan for a couple minutes. Even in a deck oven! The alternative in the home oven is pulling a little sooner and crisping on the burner I think.

Keep playing with it! When I've nailed my bake, it's been the best square I've ever had. Other times, I haven't wanted more than a single bite.

Offline derricktung

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2015, 09:14:02 AM »
Pies look great! Are you using Lloyd pans?

One thing I've learned with this style, cooking In a home/range oven with
These can be difficult!

Tonight during service I took my IR Temp gun and shot it where I had been starting the pies in the work range. 425 f on the steel... In an oven set to 550. To the left and right, under 450. Middle, 525. I can only imagine what the air temps Are on the different Racks, but cooked on the top the day
Before yesterday and the bottom was BLONDE. I think the lower bottom temp is also leading to my less crispy bottoms. It's a hassle to juggle these bakes.

Also, im a firm believer pan pizzas need to be finished out of the pan and on a stone.

Still, my best results have been finishing in the pan on a burner or flattop. I think baking in a deck oven on a superheated stone continuously pushes heat through the pan into the bottom, making it crispier than I've been getting so far. Most of my Favorite slice joints in NYC also finish out of the pan for a couple minutes. Even in a deck oven! The alternative in the home oven is pulling a little sooner and crisping on the burner I think.

Keep playing with it! When I've nailed my bake, it's been the best square I've ever had. Other times, I haven't wanted more than a single bite.

Ohh.. thanks for the tips!  This is exactly what I was looking for.

I grabbed my pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  so far, easy to work with and easy to clean.  We'll see in another couple hundred bakes to see how they last, though from Adam Kuban's experience, there shouldn't be any issues.

I was cooking at 500-550 range, but both times I"ve done this, I start seeing the bottom crust begin to burn before the middle of the pie is fully sprung.  (Gumline problems).  For Thanksgiving, I'm going to dial it back to 475 and see if that helps... I was also contemplating finishing on the steel for some extra crisp, but that would definitely require the pull back in temp as well.  Or potentially foiling the top once color is reached...?

My other concern is that it's just not as deliciously oily as Buddys... I've been using a thin layer of Crisco thus far... should I be switching to actual oil, or possibly butter?

« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 09:30:31 AM by derricktung »

Offline derricktung

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2015, 09:15:43 AM »
Pics of yesterday night's bake.  Still making adjustments...

Bumped up to 80% hydration instead, with a nice full 3 hour rise time in the pans.  No bulk fermentation.  I'm thinking more rise time is needed still...?  Perhaps a cold ferment time incorporated... (these were at the request of my wife the same morning).

Top right is a canadian bacon, mushroom, green pepper, onion, and caramelized onions/leeks (I was using up leftover toppings from previous night's test "woodfired" pies).  Bottom left is homemade sausage and mushroom, with sauce added after.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 09:31:21 AM by derricktung »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2015, 02:02:02 PM »
Your bottoms are nice and crispy, though? Would you say comparable in crispness to NY places, like Prince Street? I think that's important. Norma has said vegetable oil has helped her bottoms get even crispier than Crisco.

Your pies looked baked through pretty well, so I don't know where your gum line is. Are you saucing pre or post bake, and if so are you using crushed or puréed whole tomatoes? The whole tomatoes definitely seemed a bit too watery for this style when I tried it. The crushed tomatoes werent leeching a ton of water though

Offline derricktung

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 12:02:09 AM »
Your bottoms are nice and crispy, though? Would you say comparable in crispness to NY places, like Prince Street? I think that's important. Norma has said vegetable oil has helped her bottoms get even crispier than Crisco.

Your pies looked baked through pretty well, so I don't know where your gum line is. Are you saucing pre or post bake, and if so are you using crushed or puréed whole tomatoes? The whole tomatoes definitely seemed a bit too watery for this style when I tried it. The crushed tomatoes werent leeching a ton of water though

The bottoms are crispy coming right out, yup, and especially crisp if I reheat on the steel afterwards.  Crispness is definitely comparable to Prince St, though I have to say, Buddy's still has my heart for Detroit/square style pies.  That's become my marker for comparison...I'll have to try vegetable oil for Thanksgiving, which will be the next set of pies.

The first pie I did, I added sauce on top of the cheese before they went into the oven, which may have caused part of the gumline.  The second pie yesterday had a little bit of gum line in the center pieces still.  I may just need to wrap it up once the top is the right color.

Definitely using crushed tomatoes.  They seem to be just fine, especially when I do it properly and apply the sauce post bake!

Thanks for the tips!  Lots of adjustments to be made still... and a slew of ingredients I want to test for toppings!


Offline derricktung

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2016, 10:40:48 AM »
Ran a few different doughs last night, mostly to focus on whether diastatic malt makes a significant difference or not.

Dough 1:  100% AP Flour, 75% hydration, 0.5% ADY, 2% salt, 2% oil, with and without 1% diastatic

Dough 2:  100% AP, 70% hydration, 0.3% ADY, 1.25% salt,  2% sugar with and without 1% diastatic (HBolte's base recipe, converted the yeast wrong though)

Dough 3:  90% AP, 10% semolina 75% hydration, 0.3% ADY, 1.7% salt, 1% sugar, with and without 1% diastatic (Rparker's base, converted yeast wrong)

First off, as I'm typing this up, I realize that I've been converting my IDY to ADY incorrectly from the previous recipes, which is definitely why my 2-3 hour proofs aren't coming up as strong.  Will be interesting to see next weekend tests once I convert properly.

Dough 1 came out completely flat.  Crispy and tasty, but there was absolutely no rise.  These were also done in the 10x8 I just received, but still, no rise going in and very little coming out. 2 hours was definitely not enough to get good rise... diastatic results were mixed.  Some thought the one without had better crisp, others though the one that did had better crisp.  I personally thought the one that had the diastatic crisped up better.

Dough 2 had the most rise, almost to the point of being too bready for my tastes.  The dough just tasted a bit dry.  Diastatic had better crisp here than not.  This was the favored amongst my parent's generation in terms of texture/breadiness/chew.

Dough 3 had a small bit of rise, but not as much as dough 2.  (Salt inhibition, less sugar?)  In my opinion, the diastatic had better browning and a crisper crust here as well, but it wasn't really noticeable unless you compared them head to head.  This was the favored amongst my generation in terms of texture/flavor/breadiness, though I would have preferred a bit more airiness...

So basically, I liked the diastatic malt add.  Is it a game changer?  No... is it noticeable tasting it side by side with/without, yes, but pretty minimally.  More testing needed.  Thanks to HBolte, rparker, and hotsawce for the insight/advice/discussion thus far.  And since the wife is having an aversion to pizza as of late, I may be taking after Craig's method of making a butter/sugar/cinnamon one so get her in on some more dough testing too...  time to review what my guests thought in terms of what they wrote down...

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2016, 02:14:30 AM »
I wouldn't use AP for this style.That's a lot of water for the protein content of an AP flour. I have also let my doughs proof to the point they literally collapsed when I went to top them they had been rising so long.

I feared This would lead to a dense dough without air bubbles but, for some reason, they were supremely airy just like the doughs that weren't overproofed.

After a lot of testing I found my secret for this style of pizza...or at least what I think makes it special. My pizzas have been tall, and seemingly thick, but never bready and always airy. Universally, the feedback I receive is that the pie looks thick and tasters think it will have a similar tooth to, say, a sicilian pizza that has proofed only 30 minutes but it's phenomenally light and texturally complex when eating.

Offline derricktung

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2016, 08:33:14 AM »
That's interesting that you're not using AP flour, where I believe Norma and Adam were both using AP?  I've got some 00 and high gluten kyrol flour on hand... guess I'll do some testing across all three then!  Thanks for the feedback!

I'm glad you found your secret!  I'm looking forward to flying back in (maybe for the opening?) and having a few!  With all the testing you've been doing, I have no doubt it's gonna be great!

Online HBolte

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2016, 09:28:29 AM »
I have not used AP either. If I ever posted that, it was in error. I use KABF.
Hans

Offline norma427

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2016, 10:52:11 AM »
That's interesting that you're not using AP flour, where I believe Norma and Adam were both using AP?

Derrick,

I am using GM Full Strength bleached and bromated and have been for a long while.  I am going to try the Caputo Americana flour today blended with the Full Strength.

Norma

Offline derricktung

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2016, 11:12:45 AM »
Derrick,

I am using GM Full Strength bleached and bromated and have been for a long while.  I am going to try the Caputo Americana flour today blended with the Full Strength.

Norma

Woops!  Didn't mean to misquote you, Norma!  My apologies! 

I was going off the 2013 post here:  http://www.adamkuban.com/2013/02/detroit-style-pizza-75-hydration-all-purpose-flour/ 

I've got catching up to do it seems...  Thanks for the correction!


Offline rparker

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2016, 11:30:40 AM »
Like I said on another thread, those look really nice. I wish I was close enough and in the circle to be part of your panel of tasters.  :drool:

I'm not sure I would have purchased a bag of Full Strength had it not been for how my Detroit Styles came out. I bet dollars to donuts that if Norma pointed me to a Detroit formula using FS, then that's where I got the idea to use it. 

Derrick, if you could go back in time and use what you think the right amount of ADY compared to my .6% IDY, what will that be? I'm very much considering an ADY version this week.

Norma, I hope you like the 00 addition. I found it to be a very pleasant bite.

I'm going to bake one this week, I think. I don't have the Durum, but I do have some very fine Caputo Semolina back in the house. Also have some spelt. Maybe go 5% and 5%.

You know what? I've got another little thing that I do with my Detroit styles. I use a 95F environment for much of the bulk rise and some of the pan rise. One time, though, that got out of control. Still made a great pie.

Offline derricktung

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2016, 05:43:21 PM »
I have not used AP either. If I ever posted that, it was in error. I use KABF.

No worries... not your error, but rather based on my reading of Adam's blog.  I've had it in my head that AP was the best since I read that.  I confess, I haven't read through the whole detroit thread yet, which is probably where I missed the discussion on using full strength flour.


Derrick, if you could go back in time and use what you think the right amount of ADY compared to my .6% IDY, what will that be? I'm very much considering an ADY version this week.


The typical conversion from IDY to ADY is 33% more, so for your 1.9 grams of IDY, I should have used 2.53 grams of ADY.  I was using a chart from here: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm and while multitasking, misremembered the which column was ADY and IDY while writing down the recipes... 


Offline norma427

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Re: Attempts at Detroit Style
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2016, 08:36:33 PM »
Woops!  Didn't mean to misquote you, Norma!  My apologies! 

I was going off the 2013 post here:  http://www.adamkuban.com/2013/02/detroit-style-pizza-75-hydration-all-purpose-flour/ 

I've got catching up to do it seems...  Thanks for the correction!

Derrick,

I never saw that post by Adam Kuban.  I tried GM Full Strength mixed with Caputo Americana today and the dough was more sticky than usual.  I will see what happens tomorrow.

Norma