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Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 131040 times)

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Offline junep

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #300 on: February 07, 2018, 10:26:46 PM »
Craig, thanks for explaining that those numbers refer to hours. I can see that your chart will be very useful for me for delving into the unknown for me, of using starter for pizza.

One other question if I can trouble you a bit longer - when I decide the percentage of starter to use, is that percentage of the entire gram weight of the whole recipe?  Adding starter to my recipe means I'm adding more water and more flour to the recipe, so how do I make that work with adjusting the water or the flour? Is there a formula to use or is it just hit and miss till I get it to work.

Thanks again Craig for helping me with this.

June

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #301 on: February 07, 2018, 10:40:21 PM »
The predicted starter quantity is the % of formula flour not including the flour in the starter. Whether you adjust the formula to reflect the hydration change caused by the starter is largely a matter of personal preference and your comfort level working in a wide range of hydration values. I almost never make an adjustment to the formula for the starter hydration, but I rarely use more than 10% or so. If I was going to use a lot more starter, maybe, but it would depend on the formula.

In the end, sourdough largely comes down to experience. There is no substitute for simply getting your hands dirty and making pizza. Note what worked and what didn't and make adjustments in your next batch. Dough is cheap. Make different formulas and experiment - even if you only feel the handling of the raw dough never bake them, you'll learn more than any calculation can ever tell you.
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Offline junep

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #302 on: February 07, 2018, 11:47:04 PM »
Craig,
If I'm understanding what you wrote "The predicted starter quantity is the % of formula flour not including the flour in the starter", does that mean that if my dough recipe calls for 100 grams of flour and I want to use 20% starter, I would lower my flour to 80 grams???

I'm all for experimenting and enjoy changing my recipe around; but it is nice to have some idea of the perameters that would give me at least a chance of having something edible; and I do so appreciate the time you've taken to help me with this.

June
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #303 on: February 08, 2018, 08:39:02 AM »
Craig,
If I'm understanding what you wrote "The predicted starter quantity is the % of formula flour not including the flour in the starter", does that mean that if my dough recipe calls for 100 grams of flour and I want to use 20% starter, I would lower my flour to 80 grams???

I'm all for experimenting and enjoy changing my recipe around; but it is nice to have some idea of the perameters that would give me at least a chance of having something edible; and I do so appreciate the time you've taken to help me with this.

June

No, if your recipe calls for 100g flour and the chart calls for 20% starter, you would use 20g starter. For example, a typical 60ish % hydration SD with 20% starter might be:

100g flour
60g water
2g salt
20g starter
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Offline MrBready

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #304 on: February 08, 2018, 10:16:56 AM »
Dear Craig,
I am trying to predict this scenario.
4 stages with a total of 36h using a 13.5% protein flour with 70% hydro at those given temperatures.
The result is 0,51% of starter.
My flour quantity is 350gr but i do not use chemical yeast or dry yeast but just solid (50% hydro) sourdough starter.
Following your model i should use approx 1,75gr of my starter🙆🏻‍♂️🤔
Isn’it too small as quantity????
Thanks and regards

Fabio

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #305 on: February 08, 2018, 12:15:36 PM »
Dear Craig,
I am trying to predict this scenario.
4 stages with a total of 36h using a 13.5% protein flour with 70% hydro at those given temperatures.
The result is 0,51% of starter.
My flour quantity is 350gr but i do not use chemical yeast or dry yeast but just solid (50% hydro) sourdough starter.
Following your model i should use approx 1,75gr of my starter🙆🏻‍♂️🤔
Isn’it too small as quantity????
Thanks and regards

Fabio

Fabio,

The table was built largely on liquid starter (100% hydro) data, and I'm not sure how much solid starter would affect it. My guess is you might need to use a bit more but not much. For a liquid starter, yes, 0.51% sounds about right for the fermentation schedule you describe. Keep in mind that the final 12 hours at 83F is a long time at a relatively high temperature. Think about it this way: 1.75g is probably 10X more than you'd be using if you were using fresh yeast.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #306 on: February 08, 2018, 09:10:38 PM »
I wanted to share a slightly related video to the predictive model...

There has been some discussion of Franco Manca in the past, as they've managed consistency across multiple locations using sourdough starter. I was browsing youtube and came across this video. It appears they understand the importance of consistent temperature regulation - they store their bulk dough in this dough retarder at what looks to be 19c or roughly 66f for the stated reason the kitchen is always very warm. If I had to guess, it looks like they use it primarily for the bulk ferment, finishing the fermentation in the trays. With their stated fermentation time of 20 to 22 hours, it fits right in-line with Craig's model under the assumption they are using 5% or less of starter in the neapolitan tradition.

Just a practical illustration of how important the temperature regulation is!

https://youtu.be/vx3X8eK-P10?t=2m16s

Offline the1mu

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Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #307 on: February 08, 2018, 10:16:58 PM »
For what it is worth, in a commercial bakery setting, for a poolish (100% hydration), a pate fermente (65-66% hydration), and a biga (60-62% hydration) all receive the same level of commercial yeast to achieve full fermentation of the preferment at the same time/temperature combo. However their viable usability window varies. Also, a pate fermente with a hydration of 60% receives a different quantity of yeast for the same time/temperature.

And in my experience using a 60% hydro starter and 100% hydro starter (again in a bakery setting) at 20% inoculation yields a ripe preferment in the same time/temp window. Again, the only variable will be the usability window. The lower hydration has a longer use window whereas the higher is shorter.

Offline junep

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #308 on: February 14, 2018, 11:32:40 PM »
No, if your recipe calls for 100g flour and the chart calls for 20% starter, you would use 20g starter. For example, a typical 60ish % hydration SD with 20% starter might be:

100g flour
60g water
2g salt
20g starter

Thanks Craig. I understand that I would use 20 gr of starter , if I choose 20% starter; but I'm not sure I understand the hydration %. Making my starters, I use equal parts by wt of flour and water, so does my starter have 100% hydration?  And if so, wouldn't I have to adjust the recipe by lowering the amount of water in the recipe, since the recipe as shown, is 60% hydration. I am SOOOO confused about this.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #309 on: February 15, 2018, 07:58:58 AM »
Thanks Craig. I understand that I would use 20 gr of starter , if I choose 20% starter; but I'm not sure I understand the hydration %. Making my starters, I use equal parts by wt of flour and water, so does my starter have 100% hydration?  And if so, wouldn't I have to adjust the recipe by lowering the amount of water in the recipe, since the recipe as shown, is 60% hydration. I am SOOOO confused about this.

Yes and maybe. Yes, equal parts by weight is 100% hydration starter which is very common. Whether or not you adjust your formula water (or flour) is a matter of personal preference. You need to experiment to find out what works best for you. I'd say that, in general, the more starter you are using, the more likely you may want to adjust your formula.

As a general rule of thumb, each 5-6% of 100% hydration starter will increase your dough hydration by 1% if you don't make any adjustments.
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Offline junep

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #310 on: February 24, 2018, 01:11:17 PM »
Yes and maybe. Yes, equal parts by weight is 100% hydration starter which is very common. Whether or not you adjust your formula water (or flour) is a matter of personal preference. You need to experiment to find out what works best for you. I'd say that, in general, the more starter you are using, the more likely you may want to adjust your formula.

As a general rule of thumb, each 5-6% of 100% hydration starter will increase your dough hydration by 1% if you don't make any adjustments.

That helps a great deal Craig. Thank you. Right now I have a test dough for one pie using just 2% starter. It's been in the garage for about 48 hrs in daytime temperatures in the high 40's and by early morning it was in the high 30's in there. So I just took take it and will let it sit at RT for a few hours and see what happens. Next time, I'll just do a same day bake which will be an easier thing to do, and will also give me a better idea how this Ischia starter does in my recipe, than dealing with the unknown, changing temperature in my garage.

Thanks for your patience, and guiding me through this whole process!
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #311 on: February 24, 2018, 01:34:40 PM »
Happy to help. Even if things aren't working as you'd like at first, stick with it. Once things start to click, you won't believe how quickly you make progress.
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Offline junep

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #312 on: February 28, 2018, 01:15:38 PM »
Happy to help. Even if things aren't working as you'd like at first, stick with it. Once things start to click, you won't believe how quickly you make progress.
[/quote
Craig, the pie came out great, other than me leaving it on the peel too long as I topped it, then running into the bedroom to take a camera, wait for the camera to go on, etc. By the time I got the pie in the oven it stuck and what a mess. I got the far end in before it stuck somewhere around the middle. I pushed the rest off the peel and then pulled it back. I had a very testy and very ugly pie with a hole in the middle and a major oven cleanup the next day.

But that dough was the best dough I ever worked with. In fact, it was stretching so well when I got to the knucke stretching part, I just couldn't stop myself. It was amazing to work with. My 13" pie wound up being closer to 15". I will make that one again and redo the timing part since I couldn't use you 65 degree instructions.

Yesterday I went around my house taking temperature readings, and found that by closing the vent in my guest room I get high 50's temperature this time of year, and 60-61 right outside that door, even though the rest of the house is around 70-72. So i'll just use use chart and redo the recipe for that temperature.

Thanks as always, for all the work you do and share with all of us on our pizza making journey.

]
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #313 on: February 28, 2018, 01:19:29 PM »
Glad things are working well.

A trick that often works well on a pizza that is lightly stuck to the peel is to lift up a little bit and blow under it. Be careful though, it's surprisingly easy to blow the pizza right off the peel like a hovercraft.
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #314 on: April 29, 2018, 09:03:58 AM »
Any thoughts on how to reduce the level of acid in the dough?

My dough is too sticky and lack tension. From what I understand, higher acid load can lead to a stickier dough. To avoid this, I've seen recommendations of keeping the amount of starter low and the acid load of the starter as low as possible. From Trevor J Wilson's Open Crumb Master (on bread), he says you can lower the acid in a starter by using lower amounts of starter when feeding the starter (1:4:4 instead of 1:2:2 for instance) and by using the starter when it's young.

Do you, Craig, or anyone else have some input on this? I've currently been using the starter at least after peak, which in warm weather can be before 4 hours and in cooler up to 8 hours. If using the starter before it has peaked lowers acid, will it have any negative effect on the fermentation?

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #315 on: April 29, 2018, 01:10:25 PM »
I don't have any problems with stickiness - even using AP flour for 48 hours RT. If it's a big problem, it's possible that the only solution is to try to make a new starter that is less destructive to the dough. Also, it may be enzymes as well as acids causing the problem.

I'm not sure what else to suggest. You have to get from mixed dough to ready to bake dough, and a certain amount of microbiological activity has to happen in between regardless of your formula and workflow. For example, if you use less culture, you will have to ferment longer/warmer. You could try altering the starter quantity and fermentation temp and see if it makes a difference.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #316 on: April 29, 2018, 02:20:27 PM »
I am experimenting with starter amount and fermentation. My first reaction was that it had fermented too far, but even with less fermented (always fermenting at 16C) dough it gets sticky with little tension. I also planned to try lower hydration, which is at 65% with bread flour, but when I mix it, it seems like it should handle that amount. If it had tension, but was sticky, I would probably look at hydration first, but since I'm getting both, I started to wonder about the starter. I've had the starter for 3 years and it's pretty active, peaking at 4 hours in 25C RT. It has been neglected at times, the longest probably being 6 months just sitting in a fridge without feeding. I've also switched between different flours, from wholemeal to white, spelt to wheat and the other way a few times. Making a new one isn't a bad idea. Before I got into sourdough, I didn't imagine a starter would die or go bad. That since you are constantly feeding it with fresh flour, any unwanted characteristics would go away with proper feeding. But I've seen many talk about their starters going bad, so I understand that a starter carries its history in the bacteria. Are there ways to evaluate a starter besides how it acts in a dough, or would you need a laboratory, microscopes and qualified personnel for that?

Thanks, Craig.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #317 on: April 29, 2018, 02:24:18 PM »
I think that's it. Ultimately, the specific microbiological composition really doesn't matter. Either it performs how you want it to or it doesn't.
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Offline Guppy

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #318 on: May 03, 2018, 05:13:11 PM »
Hey pizza noob here:

So using this chart  for a 12 hour @ 84f, I would need  %6 starter at 100% hydration,  So in order to keep a 65% hydration how would I reduce the amount of water?

Also, what would be the work flow? eg

6 hours bulk ferment + shaping then another 6 proof? and cook at the 13h (After 1 hour preheating oven?)
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Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #319 on: July 29, 2018, 12:40:08 AM »
Hi there:
Understood, predictive model with certain assumptions/baselines such as 75F temp and 100% hydration starter. 

More on the starter: is there an assumption on its build/feeding ratio (e.g. s:f:w 1:2:2, 1:3:3, 1:4:4), and an assumption of its activity, i.e. how long it takes for the starter to either double or be ready?

Thank you!

-- edited to fix embarrassing possessive apostrophe :p
« Last Edit: July 29, 2018, 01:54:42 AM by ButteredPizza »

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