A D V E R T I S E M E N T

Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 154639 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TXCraig1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 26414
• Location: Houston, TX
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #360 on: June 27, 2019, 02:54:45 PM »
Concerning the chart (Predicted Fermentation Time) in the initial post, a question about the starter percentage.

Let’s use 100 grams for the total dough weight. If the starter percentage is 2%, does the starter contain 1 gram of water and 1 gram of flour or does the starter contain 2%  of the total weight of the flour and an equal weight of water(2 grams).

I assume that when you speak of a starter it consist of equal weights of water and flour. Is that correct?

Yes, presumably it's about equal weights, but it refers to the actual starter weight (flour+water) regardless of hydration.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

DanAyo

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 77
• Age: 67
• Location: South Louisiana (USA)
• Inquiring minds want to know...
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #361 on: June 27, 2019, 06:03:24 PM »
Craig, can you provide a link to the latest edition of the Sourdough starter quantity predictive model?

I would also like the link to the latest spreadsheet for the SD starter calculations. The one where you enter the temperature, time, and starter. I've seen it somewhere as a google doc.

I am impressed with the predictive model. My better judgement thinks this can't work, but I checked a known percentage of starter against a known temperature and time. And the chart is extremely close. As you know when it comes to starters with all of the unknown variables, close is initially great. I read on PM that the characteristics of a starter has a great affect on the outcome. True, for sure. I use a proofer so the temps are pretty accurate. On my Brod and Taylor I have 2 degree variance in the actual dough temp as compared to the setting. A simple adjustment. But as I venture into higher % of whole grains I know that the fermentation will move faster in relationship to the % of starter, more so with whole grain.

Last Question - On this forum when you guys reference % of starter, I take it to mean the total weight of a 100% hydrated starter as compared to the total weight of the total flour. Is that correct? So, if the total weight of the flour is 100g and the percentage of starter is 4% the starter's total weight is 4g and it is composed of 2g water and 2g flour.

I know this is the second time I posed this question today, but I am planning to mix tonight and am anxious for the answer.

Thanks for your untiring effort to help all of us!
Dan Ayo
“Inquiring minds want to know...”
Life is a journey of exploration and learning. Earthly perfection is unattainable, but never the less consistently sought.

TXCraig1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 26414
• Location: Houston, TX
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #362 on: June 27, 2019, 06:14:50 PM »

Yes, the basic assumption is that the % starter x the flour weight = the weight of 100% HR fully-active culture. Note that if you go beyond 3-5% or so, you may want to start accounting for the culture in your overall hydration calculation and adjust the formula water accordingly.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

DanAyo

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 77
• Age: 67
• Location: South Louisiana (USA)
• Inquiring minds want to know...
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #363 on: June 27, 2019, 06:19:20 PM »
I thought I read that there were at least 3 revisions. The chart at the top of this post shows rev.1

Dan Ayo
“Inquiring minds want to know...”
Life is a journey of exploration and learning. Earthly perfection is unattainable, but never the less consistently sought.

parallei

• Posts: 2724
• Location: Denver, CO
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #364 on: June 27, 2019, 06:30:20 PM »

Note that if you go beyond 3-5% or so, you may want to start accounting for the culture in your overall hydration calculation and adjust the formula water accordingly.

Note also that the forum's "Preferment Pizza Dough Calculating Tool" does this for you!  And, as you already know, accounts for varying culture/stater/whatever hydrations!

A D V E R T I S E M E N T

TXCraig1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 26414
• Location: Houston, TX
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #365 on: June 27, 2019, 07:05:16 PM »
I thought I read that there were at least 3 revisions. The chart at the top of this post shows rev.1

You might have been thinking about the baker's yeast model. It had several revisions.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

sallam

• Registered User
• Posts: 176
• Age: 65
• Location: Egypt
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #366 on: July 03, 2019, 04:39:50 AM »
In Sourdough Prediction sheet, column D and E have no titles, what are they ?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 04:43:03 AM by sallam »
I'm a home baker.

Heikjo

• Posts: 869
• Location: Oslo, Norway
• A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #367 on: July 03, 2019, 04:49:35 AM »
In Sourdough Prediction sheet, column D and E have no titles, what are they ?
Calculations used in the sheet, you are not meant to change anything there. I believe those columns where hidden/collapsed before. If you make your own copy, just mark them, right click and hide.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

sallam

• Registered User
• Posts: 176
• Age: 65
• Location: Egypt
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #368 on: July 03, 2019, 05:25:32 AM »
Many thanks.
I'm a home baker.

Jr07

• Registered User
• Posts: 153
• I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #369 on: July 06, 2019, 07:41:03 PM »
question about the model, can it apply to the maturity of a starter? or has anyone seen one out there for this?

what would be the time to maturity of a starter fed at any given temperature....

j

A D V E R T I S E M E N T

TXCraig1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 26414
• Location: Houston, TX
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #370 on: July 06, 2019, 07:56:01 PM »
question about the model, can it apply to the maturity of a starter? or has anyone seen one out there for this?

what would be the time to maturity of a starter fed at any given temperature....

j

The model assumes a fully active starter. You need to develop a repeatable workflow. With SD, for consistency and predictability, t's not as important how you do things that it is you do things the same way every time.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

andytiedye

• Registered User
• Posts: 150
• I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #371 on: July 07, 2019, 03:17:34 PM »
Does the model assume that we are using the Ischia strain?

Our San Francisco strain seems to be a bit faster than the model would predict. Red Sea, on the other hand, rises really fast if it is warm, and sulks at cool temperatures.

TXCraig1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 26414
• Location: Houston, TX
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #372 on: July 11, 2019, 01:07:04 AM »
Does the model assume that we are using the Ischia strain?

Our San Francisco strain seems to be a bit faster than the model would predict. Red Sea, on the other hand, rises really fast if it is warm, and sulks at cool temperatures.

No, it’s an average assumption. Many starters are similar to Ischia, but some testing and tweaking will likely be required.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Jr07

• Registered User
• Posts: 153
• I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #373 on: July 22, 2019, 10:23:06 PM »
Question,
Is there a way to know how fast dough balls change temp when put in / taken out or the fridge?

For instance if I have my 20% starter dough balls at room temp (75 deg) fermentation takes 8 hours. But I want to delay this process to 24 hours (would be at 60 deg according to table) but I cant  create a 60 deg env so I want to put them in the fridge which is at 40 deg but then take them out at the right time so that the effect is the same.

Or should I just increase the temp in the fridge to 60 ?

Sorry if this does not make sense

TXCraig1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 26414
• Location: Houston, TX
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #374 on: July 23, 2019, 06:53:26 AM »
Question,
Is there a way to know how fast dough balls change temp when put in / taken out or the fridge?

For instance if I have my 20% starter dough balls at room temp (75 deg) fermentation takes 8 hours. But I want to delay this process to 24 hours (would be at 60 deg according to table) but I cant  create a 60 deg env so I want to put them in the fridge which is at 40 deg but then take them out at the right time so that the effect is the same.

Or should I just increase the temp in the fridge to 60 ?

Sorry if this does not make sense

Here are the instructions how to use the table with multiple temps: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg230690#msg230690

I've done very little with SD in the fridge, so I don't have much advice to give other than to expect to need several rounds of testing and tweaking to get the workflow right.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

A D V E R T I S E M E N T

iLLEb

• Registered User
• Posts: 177
• Location: Waalwijk, Netherlands
• I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #375 on: July 28, 2019, 07:23:14 AM »
What would you say peak activity looks like when using SD starter?

Was it, when it's doubled and starts to collapsse upon itself?

Heikjo

• Posts: 869
• Location: Oslo, Norway
• A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #376 on: July 28, 2019, 08:24:45 AM »
Depends what you mean with peak, but I would call it the point where it stops growing and starts to collapse. That's typically when you want to use the starter in the dough, but venturing into that area with a dough is risky. Some like getting close to that point, but to me it seems most prefer using the dough when it has risen 1.7-2 times, which is still quite far from peak.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

TXCraig1

• Supporting Member
• Posts: 26414
• Location: Houston, TX
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #377 on: July 29, 2019, 06:35:19 AM »
Depends what you mean with peak, but I would call it the point where it stops growing and starts to collapse. That's typically when you want to use the starter in the dough, but venturing into that area with a dough is risky. Some like getting close to that point, but to me it seems most prefer using the dough when it has risen 1.7-2 times, which is still quite far from peak.

More important than how you define peak is that figure out what works for you and do it the same way every time else consistent, predictable results may be difficult to achieve.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

iLLEb

• Registered User
• Posts: 177
• Location: Waalwijk, Netherlands
• I Love Pizza!
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #378 on: July 29, 2019, 08:36:11 AM »
Yeah sounds logical, probably best to focus on using it in the same "stage" and try to see if its done at time you want em ready or adjust accordingly.

First try is Tuesday, just made the dough Sunday and im curious to see if its good and ready on Tuesday. Ill show off the results if its decent.

Chicago Bob

• Posts: 13965
• Location: Durham,NC
• Easy peazzy
Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #379 on: July 30, 2019, 09:50:21 PM »
Yeah sounds logical, probably best to focus on using it in the same "stage" and try to see if its done at time you want em ready or adjust accordingly.

First try is Tuesday, just made the dough Sunday and im curious to see if its good and ready on Tuesday. Ill show off the results if its decent.