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Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 174703 times)

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Offline iLLEb

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #380 on: July 31, 2019, 01:35:35 PM »
I forgot my telephone so no photos. I think it was underfermented because the cornicione was not puffing up like before i believe? Is that the problem? I got very little rise. I must admit  however, it is just incredible how much of a taste difference the natural starter and commerical yeast is.

I thought it would be minimal, but it is actually huge. a commercial yeast is fairly bland, but the natural yeast has a distinct flavour. However, the one i made with commercial yeast wwas VERY light and fluffy with an nice cornicione.

Could you confirm or advise what the most likely problem was as i think the only difference was natural yeast. If this one can be made identical to the one i made with commerical yeast, i think i would be insanely happy already with my product, near perfect to how i want it to be.

It is very hard to tell if it is ready for me, i use an wwooden box like Craig's and i also seem to have some issue iwht if drying out a bit, just a little, i use plastic wrap around the wood but it dries out a bit. any suggestions?

It could either be that it waas not in the best stage or that i did not change to higher room temp soon enough.

I let it rise in bulk for 24H at about 20C and then fridged it for 2/3 hours - balled it - and returned it too 20C for 24H more.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #381 on: July 31, 2019, 01:37:13 PM »
All cultures are different, and some are more different than others. All you can do is experiment and figure out how best to manage your culture in your unique situation. If it seems under-fermented, use more culture or ferment at a warmer temperature, and vice-versa.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline iLLEb

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #382 on: July 31, 2019, 01:38:40 PM »
Okay, but what would you say is the most likely suspect when the cornicione does not rise to your preferred size? Is it the culture? Or should i focus my tests elsewere?

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #383 on: July 31, 2019, 01:51:19 PM »
First of all, a dough made with SD will have less rise than if you used yeast. Commercial yeast has more power than the sourdough.

You can of course still get less rise than you'd like, which can be caused by a number of things. The starter itself can have a composition which doesn't give that much leavening power. The fermentation could've been off, which again can be caused and corrected by a number of things (starter amount, time amd temperature), the opening technique could've been less than ideal.

Why did you put it in the fridge 2-3 hours in the middle?

It's easier to evaluate your results if you post the entire process, including photos. Recipe, ingredients, method, oven, oven temp etc. It's impossible to tell why you didn't get the results you were looking for, but it's difficult to give tips without the full story. For all we know, the cornicione had a spring that one would expect from your dough, but without more information it would be shooting blind.

That is maybe something you could discuss in a new topic. This one is primarily about the SD starter model, while your questions can end up in different places. You'll likely get more answers in a dedicated topic too.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline iLLEb

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #384 on: July 31, 2019, 02:09:22 PM »
Yes i was thinking the same. I will post in an another topic orr create my own.

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Offline iLLEb

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #385 on: August 19, 2019, 10:12:06 AM »
If i want to do 24H, does it matter at all if i do 73F 24H or 65F 24H?

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #386 on: August 19, 2019, 01:28:32 PM »
Both can work. I see some that get some problems with higher temperatures, and balls that are slack. If that's a product of bulk/ball timings or just the dough being degraded too much from a higher temperature I don't know.

I use 15C/59F and like that temperature. Partly because if I used anything over 22C, the required starter amount would get pretty small and my scale might contribute to inconsistencies. I also like how the doughs handle when they've been kept at a lower temperature. I usually take them out an hour before, but they don't reach RT ik that time.

If you don't have any preference yet, and can control the temperature, I would suggest 65F.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #387 on: October 10, 2019, 11:50:53 AM »
Yo.  I clearly have no clue how about what a properly fermented neopolitan dough is!  It is fully understood the times in Craig's plot are just a starting point!  Sorry this is long.  Here's the TLDR (Too Long, Didn't Read) version:

I accidentally overproofed my neopolitan dough and it made the best pizza so far.  I believe I'm way underfermenting.  Which of these would be the most efficient method to narrow in on proper fermentation?
1. Keep starter and time the same, but use a higher fermentation temperature? 
2a. Keep starter and temperature the same, but either setup a video to watch the fermentation?
2b. Keep starter and temperature the same, but take samples out at intervals to see how it behaves?
3. Keep the temperature and time same, but mix several batches using different amounts of starter?

Long version:
Once I got a starter properly working last year, I chose a time/temp for 12 hr bulk, 12 hour ball.  I ended up with a dough that was a little tough to stretch. The pizza and crust all tasted good, and targets like doubling, bubbles, have looked just like everything I've seen posted here, maybe some mild heart burn**.  The biggest challenge now for past few months: the dough never opened up like in all the shaping videos, and no matter what, I could not get them to bake faster than about 75-80s in the ardore.  I thought it might be over development, so I stopped mixing, then the dough was tearing after 24 hours.  Or maybe my regulator just wasn't strong enough for the ardore, so I preheated longer, up to an hour.  Or maybe wrong hydration, I first went up to 65% for a few weeks, and last couple months I dropped down to 60%.  Or maybe over proofing.. so I used less starter.  I also changed flour from central milling 00 to caputo, just to rule that out.  All these one-by-one changes didn't really do much, and a few triggered some strong heartburn which to me is characteristic of under-fermented dough, and subsequently I went back to what was "working" and dealt with mild heartburn attributed to ingredients *shrug*

My most recent batch, however, should have been a complete failure but turned out.. best so far.  I put the just-balled dough back in my wine-fridge dough proofer, then carelessly closed the door, which tweaked the hanging thermocouple between the door gasket and the room (it's all a hodge podge setup, I haven't had time to make it nice).  Ambient temps in my house have actually been a little cooler than the current proofing temp, so.. the heating pad remained on for the next 12 hours, during which time I was at work.  I arrived home to flat, flat pancakes.    Internal fridge temp measure well over 80F, probably 85-90F.  Oops.

Decided to see what happens anyway.  The dough was sticky, so used extra bench flour, however, it not only held together, but the 230g balls opened up to 11" with a cornicone rim with just a 3-4 turns.  Holy cow!!  It was also super thin!  Had a little trouble sliding the skins onto the peel, they stretched more than went along for the ride, and then I had a few launch failures since even with minor toppings the dough would stretch instead of stay in shape, but eventually managed to get everything working with extra flour.  Not ideal, as I could taste and feel the bench flour in my pizza.  The crust, however, had pleasant browning and leoparding that wasn't burnt, did get a little rise in the cornicone, crust was tender, and bakes were 60 seconds.  No heartburn!

Based on the sticky results and super flat dough balls, I do believe these were overproofed.  But because the results were best yet, I'm ready to tweak the recipe again.  That's why I'm here.  What's the most efficient experimentation path that will help me arrive at a proper fermentation?   Three variables but four different techniques listed above in the TLDR version, which do you all recommend?

Current fixed variables: 60% hydrated caputo flour, 3% salt, and 24 hours total fermentation.  I have varied starter/time/temp based on the graph, and my trials resulted in fermentation being constant measured by how the balls look, feel, handle, and bake.

Thanks for your time :)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 02:52:05 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #388 on: October 17, 2019, 04:11:56 PM »
Been a while since I made NP with my SD cultures.

I've been dividing and feeding for a week and i'm finally happy with my starter.

My formula will be

100% Caputto 00
62% HD
2.8% salt
1.8% ithica

going for a 24 bulk/24 ball at 65 degrees

based on the model I appear to be a bit high on the SD.

cook time should be 60-70 seconds at 900 deck temp.

will post results after the bake on sunday

It's nice to be back.

Mark


 


Offline In Bocca Al Lupo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #389 on: December 01, 2019, 01:05:08 AM »
Just wanted to throw a data point in here.

I have a recipe with 1.67% starter. Around 22 hours bulk at 55degF. Then ball and another 24 hours at 55degF. It gets around 5 hours at room temp, 72degF then it's ready to roll.

This seems to be a decent amount faster than Craig's model. But I may be underestimating the work the room temp finish is doing.

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Offline In Bocca Al Lupo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #390 on: December 01, 2019, 01:23:11 AM »
Just wanted to throw a data point in here.

I have a recipe with 1.67% starter. Around 22 hours bulk at 55degF. Then ball and another 24 hours at 55degF. It gets around 5 hours at room temp, 72degF then it's ready to roll.

This seems to be a decent amount faster than Craig's model. But I may be underestimating the work the room temp finish is doing.

I entered in this info in the sourdough prediction google sheet and it results in wanting >5% starter. I am now thinking that I am sharing the room temp and not the dough temp and I need to go take some more measurements of the dough to see where it is at. My guess is that it is actually closer to 60degF when doing the long fermentations. If so, then the model predicts what I am seeing. I will measure it tomorrow and report back.

Note I have the dough bulk in ~10KG batches - and the larger the batch the lower the effect of the room temp.

Offline pmk

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #391 on: December 06, 2019, 11:38:55 AM »
Just another thank you to TXCraig1 for putting this together.  Having a guideline on how much starter to use relative to time available has been extremely helpful.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #392 on: December 06, 2019, 11:47:39 AM »
Just another thank you to TXCraig1 for putting this together.  Having a guideline on how much starter to use relative to time available has been extremely helpful.

Cheers!
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline jsobolew

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #393 on: January 11, 2020, 07:17:05 PM »
Ok I just read through all 20 pages and I just have one question:

What is the final difference between using more starter for a shorter overall proof time and a small amount of starter for a longer proof time?
I assume that the dough will handle differently, bake differently, taste differently between proofing for say 12 hours vs 2 days.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #394 on: January 11, 2020, 07:24:41 PM »
I think all of the above are possible.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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Offline jsobolew

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #395 on: January 12, 2020, 02:42:58 AM »
Is there a sister thread to this where starter handling is discussed? This is my first time working with a starter. I cultivated it from scratch just from whole wheat flour following directions on the King Arthur website. I've gotten it to the point where it doubles within 4-6 hours so I made my first batch of dough with it today (using your excellent chart). I only make pizza about once a week so purging excess and feeding the culture every day seems like more work than I'd like. I can fridge it but then I'd have to wake it back up somehow once a week and I'm not sure about the best way to do that.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 06:07:24 AM by jsobolew »

Offline andytiedye

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #396 on: January 12, 2020, 04:34:40 AM »
Make sourdough bread, pancakes, waffles, bread, whatever, and pizza, of course.  Our starter only goes in the fridge when we are away.

For pizza dough I tend to use a lot of starter, sometimes the dough is mostly starter.  I make very thick crust pizzas though.

Offline BCS430

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #397 on: January 14, 2020, 05:48:23 PM »
The chart on the first page of this thread is the latest, and I think this link still works for the spreadsheet version: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdGZScWx6U2lYSEtZVkJuVGJiR19NaXc#gid=0

Yes, the basic assumption is that the % starter x the flour weight = the weight of 100% HR fully-active culture. Note that if you go beyond 3-5% or so, you may want to start accounting for the culture in your overall hydration calculation and adjust the formula water accordingly.

Craig, Im sure this has already been discussed but are you factoring the post balling of dough as an additional stage or is this just for bulk ferment?  So, lets say I bulk ferment for 3 hours at 75 degrees, followed by bulk ferment at 58* for 24 hours.  The model would suggest about 23% of starter. 

However, when I ball the dough and let that sit until ready (say 4-5 hours at 75 degrees rt), should I add that as a 3rd stage which then drops the starter to 9-11%?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #398 on: January 17, 2020, 10:18:40 AM »
It's an estimate of total fermentation time. One thing it would not include however is reballing.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline gswang

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #399 on: January 19, 2020, 11:16:39 AM »
Is there a non-jpeg version of this chart? (Ie the underlying spreadsheet, not the prediction calculator?)

I'm trying to print the chart for reference but the jpeg comes out really blurry.

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