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Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 172342 times)

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Offline jsobolew

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #400 on: April 10, 2020, 05:28:06 PM »
I've been using the chart for a little while with pretty great results. I've found that with a normal room temp ferment, no matter how short or long, the sour flavor was pretty subtle. If I do the normal room temp ferment, then place it in the fridge for 2 days, it's amazing. Exactly what I'm going for. I've made about 25 pizzas this way for friends and they all really loved it, lots of great reviews. The only problem is after being in the fridge for 2 days, the dough becomes extremely delicate to handle. I can't stretch it in the normal ways because it has no strength and tears immediately. Instead I have to press down with my finger tips over and over until it's stretched out. The fact that I'm making 16" thin pizzas only makes it more difficult. I'm assuming that the build up of acetic acid from the time in the fridge is the cause of the great flavor that I'm enjoying but it's probably also completely breaking down the gluten. Does this sound right? Any tips or tricks for this issue?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #401 on: April 13, 2020, 02:23:50 PM »
Yes, it's the acids and enzymes degrading the gluten. Not much you can do about it other than ferment a bit less.
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Offline jvp123

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #402 on: May 05, 2020, 12:42:05 PM »
Hi Craig,

Hope all is well!

Is it possible that an SD starter could be much more powerful than the average starter per the SD table recommendations?  I made some dough over the past couple days and I used 1.8% very active Ischia culture for a 24/24 ferment at as close to 63F as I could keep it. 

By mid morning of day two the dough was past finished. I feel like I could have used much less starter and been fine. 

At opening time, I had all sorts of issues with blown out, wet, sticky, slack dough (I had also over hydrated at 67% as a test) which made launching a nightmare.

Thanks in advance!
Jeff


Jeff

Offline mourner

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #403 on: May 05, 2020, 12:42:48 PM »
Hi Craig,

Thanks so much for the amazing work on the model! When exploring the spreadsheet formula, I noticed something weird it appears that half of it negates itself. Here it is with some additional formatting to demonstrate what I mean:

Code: [Select]
=((
  (-0.0000336713*C3^4+0.0105207916*C3^3-1.2495985607*C3^2+67.0024722564*C3-1374.6540546564)*LN(1%)+
  (-0.000003773*C3^4 + 0.0011788625*C3^3 - 0.1400139318*C3^2 + 7.5072379375*C3 - 154.0188143761) <-------
) - (
  (-0.0000336713*C3^4+0.0105207916*C3^3-1.2495985607*C3^2+67.0024722564*C3-1374.6540546564)*LN(40%)+
  (-0.000003773*C3^4 + 0.0011788625*C3^3 - 0.1400139318*C3^2 + 7.5072379375*C3 - 154.0188143761) <-------
)) / (LN(4000%)/LN(2))

The lines I marked which constitute half of the formula don't contribute to the result because they negate each other. So I'm wondering if it's something to ignore, or could this indicate a potential mistake in the spreadsheet?

Thanks so much again!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #404 on: May 05, 2020, 02:57:43 PM »
I didn't make the spreadsheet, it's not my model's formula that's used in it, and I don't maintain it, so I can't speak to it or it's accuracy. When I've looked at it, it has appeared to have the same result as my model, though I' know that it's been broken by various users and repaired a couple times.
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Offline jsobolew

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #405 on: May 05, 2020, 04:12:27 PM »
Hi Craig,

Hope all is well!

Is it possible that an SD starter could be much more powerful than the average starter per the SD table recommendations?  I made some dough over the past couple days and I used 1.8% very active Ischia culture for a 24/24 ferment at as close to 63F as I could keep it. 

By mid morning of day two the dough was past finished. I feel like I could have used much less starter and been fine. 

At opening time, I had all sorts of issues with blown out, wet, sticky, slack dough (I had also over hydrated at 67% as a test) which made launching a nightmare.

Thanks in advance!
Jeff

I can only speak for myself but I have found the 2 different starters I use to react differently. The model has mostly been a pretty good starting point with the culture I harvested a few months ago. A friend gave me another culture that is 15 years old and I made 2 batches the same with both cultures. I left them out overnight and discovered that the 15 year old starter puffed up the dough almost twice as much than my younger starter. I found this odd because they seemed to look pretty similar during feedings.

Offline jvp123

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #406 on: May 06, 2020, 12:19:24 PM »
I can only speak for myself but I have found the 2 different starters I use to react differently. The model has mostly been a pretty good starting point with the culture I harvested a few months ago. A friend gave me another culture that is 15 years old and I made 2 batches the same with both cultures. I left them out overnight and discovered that the 15 year old starter puffed up the dough almost twice as much than my younger starter. I found this odd because they seemed to look pretty similar during feedings.


Ok thanks.  Do you know if there are any down sides to using an amount as low as 1%?  Flavor has never been a problem for my starter, so far.
Jeff

Offline HansB

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #407 on: May 06, 2020, 12:34:32 PM »

Ok thanks.  Do you know if there are any down sides to using an amount as low as 1%?  Flavor has never been a problem for my starter, so far.

I have successfully used .5% starter for a 24 hour RTF.
Hans

Offline jvp123

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #408 on: May 06, 2020, 12:38:56 PM »
I have successfully used .5% starter for a 24 hour RTF.

Thanks Hans - is this for NP pizza?  Also, at what temp are you fermenting.  Is dough spending the entire time in balls?  I've thought about trying a straight 24 hour ball ferment since I always have trouble reballing dough.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:44:28 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline HansB

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #409 on: May 06, 2020, 01:00:05 PM »
Yes, NP. Temp around 68 in balls the whole time.
Hans

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Offline jvp123

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #410 on: May 06, 2020, 01:05:20 PM »
Yes, NP. Temp around 68 in balls the whole time.

Cool thx, Hans.  Makes sense for my situation and starter strength.  Gonna do a 24 hour test run in balls only.
Jeff

Offline jsaras

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #411 on: May 06, 2020, 01:21:36 PM »
Cool thx, Hans.  Makes sense for my situation and starter strength.  Gonna do a 24 hour test run in balls only.

Your success, or lack thereof, will be your guide.  My best results for an 18-24 hour room temperature fermentation were when it was in balls for 8-12 hours.  Otherwise it was too loose to handle.
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Offline jvp123

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #412 on: May 06, 2020, 01:41:51 PM »
Your success, or lack thereof, will be your guide.  My best results for an 18-24 hour room temperature fermentation were when it was in balls for 8-12 hours.  Otherwise it was too loose to handle.

Agree on the experimentation.   I guess there's that balance between hydration and fermentation time.
Jeff

Offline brooklynguy

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #413 on: May 18, 2020, 07:41:25 AM »
Hello, Im curious what the ratio of culture to fresh yeast would be optimal for a cold ferment. The dough would also include oil.

Thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #414 on: May 18, 2020, 07:44:29 AM »
Hello, Im curious what the ratio of culture to fresh yeast would be optimal for a cold ferment. The dough would also include oil.

Thanks

In my experience, CF and SD don't lead to the best dough. I'd suggest heavily weighting the ratio to fresh yeast to start then slowly bring it back in successive batches until you find the balance you like best.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline brooklynguy

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #415 on: May 18, 2020, 11:35:33 AM »
In my experience, CF and SD don't lead to the best dough. I'd suggest heavily weighting the ratio to fresh yeast to start then slowly bring it back in successive batches until you find the balance you like best.
Thanks for the suggestion.

Offline anverc

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #416 on: May 18, 2020, 11:55:43 AM »
Thanks for the suggestion.
FWIW, I always refrigerate TXCraig1's 1.3% recipe after an 18-24hr bulk RT (floats between 65-75F) and the pizzas have turned out great every time.  I've refrigerate for at least 18h, up to 2.5 days and let return to RT for 6-12 hours on the tail end.

I use some version of Craig's copied formula that was in the spreadsheet 7 or so years ago (via the website in my sig). It's always off by several hours at the end (says done at noon, really done around 4) so I have learned to compensate. It probably doesn't help that I'm not fermenting and proofing in a temperature controlled environment anymore, but we just don't have the space for the cooler we use to have.

I also never kneed
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 12:19:00 PM by anverc »
i'm making a pizza utility app (currently "sourdough timer" and "ingredient quantity calculator").  works on smartphones, tablets and computers. check it out and give suggestions!
http://pizzautility.makebendrink.com/

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #417 on: May 18, 2020, 12:04:28 PM »
That's the thing about pizza, there are so many variables unique to your situation - many of which you may never notice - that they only way to figure out what works best for you is to experiment.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline brooklynguy

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #418 on: May 21, 2020, 09:04:38 AM »
FWIW, I always refrigerate TXCraig1's 1.3% recipe after an 18-24hr bulk RT (floats between 65-75F) and the pizzas have turned out great every time.  I've refrigerate for at least 18h, up to 2.5 days and let return to RT for 6-12 hours on the tail end.

I use some version of Craig's copied formula that was in the spreadsheet 7 or so years ago (via the website in my sig). It's always off by several hours at the end (says done at noon, really done around 4) so I have learned to compensate. It probably doesn't help that I'm not fermenting and proofing in a temperature controlled environment anymore, but we just don't have the space for the cooler we use to have.

I also never kneed
Thanks for the info!

Offline ochsavidare

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #419 on: June 23, 2020, 06:35:43 AM »
This might be the most stupid question, but whatever. What do you consider to be a pizza dough that has finished fermenting?
I was shooting for a 24h RT fermentation, at a temp ~78F and I used 0.5% active starter. Already after 20h the volume had approximately doubled, which is way more than what I usually aim for. I'm usually only aiming for ~50% increase in volume.
I understand that the activity will vary between different starters and that it's not an exact science, but this variation seemed to be outside the limits of natural variation. So is it just that my definition of done is skewed compared to other people?

Btw, love the more scientific approach to the whole process that is expressed here :)
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 09:08:06 AM by ochsavidare »

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