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Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 148535 times)

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #340 on: November 18, 2018, 02:13:52 PM »
So are those formulas the ones used to generate the table below? That is what I'm trying to find...
Norm
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Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #341 on: November 18, 2018, 02:36:05 PM »
No. They are two entirely different models. That's the baker's yeast model. In addition to a different set of formulas, it also includes some hand tuning where the SD model doesn't.
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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #342 on: November 18, 2018, 03:04:48 PM »
Can you send me the spreadsheet or are you holding it close - if so I can PM you my email address.... thx
Norm
Baker's Pride GP-61 NG and PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline Jr07

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #343 on: December 16, 2018, 03:19:34 PM »
Mr Craig,
I just got my hands on Ken Forkish’s book The Elements of Pizza and noticed his sourdough recipe calls for 66% levain / starter. 250 gr for 375 gr of flour.

Even though your table only goes as high as 40% ., I want to assume we can extrapolate the calcs so at 66% any period of fermentation would be lower at any temp.

His total fermentation time is around 8 hours at room temperature, which would suggest way too long for me.

Thoughts?

J

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #344 on: December 16, 2018, 05:54:12 PM »
Mr Craig,
I just got my hands on Ken Forkish’s book The Elements of Pizza and noticed his sourdough recipe calls for 66% levain / starter. 250 gr for 375 gr of flour.

Even though your table only goes as high as 40% ., I want to assume we can extrapolate the calcs so at 66% any period of fermentation would be lower at any temp.

His total fermentation time is around 8 hours at room temperature, which would suggest way too long for me.

Thoughts?

J

Yes, you can, but you may need to test/tweak. This formula uses 54.4% and ferments 8 hours (4+4) total: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.0
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #345 on: December 26, 2018, 01:23:28 PM »
Is there any reason 0.5% or 0.25% are not included on the chart?

The more I do 24h room temp at standard room temp, I’m finding 1% is even too much. At 12h bulk my dough is probably already overactive.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #346 on: December 26, 2018, 02:58:39 PM »
Is there any reason 0.5% or 0.25% are not included on the chart?

The more I do 24h room temp at standard room temp, I’m finding 1% is even too much. At 12h bulk my dough is probably already overactive.

No reason. I'll post a version with them when I have a chance.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #347 on: December 27, 2018, 02:30:35 AM »
Is there any reason 0.5% or 0.25% are not included on the chart?

The more I do 24h room temp at standard room temp, I’m finding 1% is even too much. At 12h bulk my dough is probably already overactive.
Don't forget the Google Sheet linked to in the first post, where you can type in whatever you want.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline brooklynguy

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #348 on: June 11, 2019, 02:32:36 PM »
I’ve tried using this a few times as it’s locked in protected mode?

Is this no longer available to use?

Thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #349 on: June 11, 2019, 02:49:29 PM »
I’ve tried using this a few times as it’s locked in protected mode?

Is this no longer available to use?

Thanks

I didn't create/maintain the google spreadsheet. I just use the chart on the first page of this thread.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #350 on: June 11, 2019, 04:16:51 PM »
I’ve tried using this a few times as it’s locked in protected mode?

Is this no longer available to use?

Thanks
You weren't meant to use the sheet linked to, but rather make your own copy an edit that. If everyone had edit access to the linked chart, it would become a mess and sooner or later broken.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline brooklynguy

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #351 on: June 11, 2019, 04:21:27 PM »
You weren't meant to use the sheet linked to, but rather make your own copy an edit that. If everyone had edit access to the linked chart, it would become a mess and sooner or later broken.

Thanks for the reply. I have copied it now!


Offline brooklynguy

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #352 on: June 11, 2019, 05:25:54 PM »
I didn't create/maintain the google spreadsheet. I just use the chart on the first page of this thread.

Ok, thanks for the reply. I’m curious based on this model if the total sourdough% is correct?

Thanks

Offline DanAyo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #353 on: June 16, 2019, 05:55:31 PM »
Craig, I have been an avid SD bread baker for many years. Recently my attention has been focused on pizza. For many reasons, SD pizza dough is my ultimate goal.

Your chart is impressive and I plan to study it and utilize the data.

I do have many questions (plan to read more of the replies) but one in particular stands out above the rest. Doesn’t the dough degrade using extended warm fermentation? I ask because in my experience using a proofer set to 78F (actual DT = 80F) will turn the dough to slop (dough degradation) around 17hr. In my experience only particular flours can even handle that. My concern is even though the dough might make the long, warm ferment, wouldn’t it be way too extensible to shape into a pizza crust?

I lied, 1 or 2 more questions please :D
Is the % of starter expressed as the percentage of flour prefermented or is it considered the total weight of the starter as a percentage of the total flour? What is the assumed hydration of the SD stater? And finally (I mean it this time) is the hydration of the final dough taken into consideration? Sorry, I couldn’t help asking more questions :D

I read quite a few replies, but definitely not all of them, yet. Have you published a resource that might help me to understand your work better?

Thanks for taking the time to share your findings with the pizza world!

Dan Ayo
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #354 on: June 16, 2019, 06:14:25 PM »
I ferment at 62F +/-2 for 48h and don't have problems with the dough degrading. It may also be your culture. Some are much more aggressive than others producing excessive  enzymes and/or acids.

Yes, % of total flour. The assumption is 100% hydration.
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Offline DanAyo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #355 on: June 16, 2019, 06:24:44 PM »
Thanks for the quick reply Craig. Have you posted your favorite SD crust formula/method? I am very interested to try it. It seems apparent that you have done exhaustive experimentation. I am interested in thin crust, if that makes a difference.

I appreciate any help you care to offer.

Danny
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Offline TXCraig1

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #357 on: June 17, 2019, 01:48:48 AM »
Craig, I have been an avid SD bread baker for many years. Recently my attention has been focused on pizza. For many reasons, SD pizza dough is my ultimate goal.

Your chart is impressive and I plan to study it and utilize the data.

I do have many questions (plan to read more of the replies) but one in particular stands out above the rest. Doesn’t the dough degrade using extended warm fermentation? I ask because in my experience using a proofer set to 78F (actual DT = 80F) will turn the dough to slop (dough degradation) around 17hr. In my experience only particular flours can even handle that. My concern is even though the dough might make the long, warm ferment, wouldn’t it be way too extensible to shape into a pizza crust?
Note that we use less starter in a pizza dough. While a bread recipe typically use 10-20% starter relative to the flour weight, you usually see 1-5% in a pizza dough.

If you plan to proof at 80F, you will need very small amounts of starter for a 24 or more hours of fermentation. If you want to use 80F you either have to use less starter and/or less fermentation time.

Fermentation = Starter amount*temperature*time

If either of the factors go up, fermentation will speed up. If they go down, fermentation slows down.

I haven't fermented pizza dough at 80F, but my experience with bread dough is that fermentation significantly speeds up when I've used 80F compared to 70-75F.

You just have to experiment and figure out what works for you. You can start by using some suggested starter amounts, but your starter is unique and you don't know how it performs until you start making pizza dough with it. The type of flour also makes a difference. Some flours are more suited for long fermentation than others.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #358 on: June 27, 2019, 01:34:09 AM »
I’ve been using this chart quite a bit with my room temp caputo pizzeria dough tests. I’ve been mixing late evening, bulking for 12 hours, then balling and letting the balls proof for the remainder of the time indicated on the chart. For the most part, it seems to be pretty accurate.

That being said, I had success with a 2.2% starter dough at my warm room temp of around 80 degrees. It proofed and stretched nicely but didn’t have more than a few hours usable life once fully fermented.

Last night, I made the same dough at 1% starter. Smelled sour a bit quicker but also took much longer to fully proof, as expected. What wasn’t expected was the gluten in the dough seemed to begin degrading before the doughball has adequately proofed.

This has me asking a question -

At such low inoculation and such warm room temperature, is it a possibility the bacteria are
Multiplying faster than the yeast and degrading the dough before it is fully fermented/proofed?

Based on my experiments at these warm room temperatures, a higher inoculation same day dough in the summer seems like it might be the only solution (I’m not making dough at 4am 😜) 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Offline DanAyo

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #359 on: June 27, 2019, 02:12:48 PM »
Concerning the chart (Predicted Fermentation Time) in the initial post, a question about the starter percentage.

Let’s use 100 grams for the total dough weight. If the starter percentage is 2%, does the starter contain 1 gram of water and 1 gram of flour or does the starter contain 2%  of the total weight of the flour and an equal weight of water(2 grams).

I assume that when you speak of a starter it consist of equal weights of water and flour. Is that correct?

« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 02:14:32 PM by DanAyo »
Dan Ayo
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