Author Topic: Why does this work?  (Read 928 times)

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Why does this work?
« on: October 12, 2015, 03:02:59 PM »
I was going to do a very long post but realized I couldn't follow it myself...so:

Members here have watched me go down in (figurative) flames trying to refrigerate and retard SD pizza dough. Lots of failures.

But, today I resurrected a recipe I've baked successfully before..and it worked again.

While when I add a small amount of starter directly to my mix, as in Craig's workflow, refrigeration seems to equal failure.

However, with the SD in a preferment, ala Ken Forkish's levain, I get excellent results even with multiple  days in the fridge. I baked two balls from thesame batch (according to Forkish calculations, the le\vain is 10% of total flour weight. Both balls CF, one at 3 days, one at 4.5. Hand-mixed, , strecth/folds, no IDY, SD only. 64% HR.  RT counter time to complete fermentation  The 3 days turned out great..even though it was just supposed to be a test, it became dinner. the 4.5 day also baked up fine, but the SD flavor was very pronounced, too much even for me and I really like SD.

I'm just wondering why  this works without causing weakness in the dough...and the non-preferment, starter only version is a fail. By the way 2/3 00 flour, 1/3 BF

Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2015, 03:31:28 PM »
I can't follow what you did (and I have Forkish' book).  Can you list out the workflow steps?  You do not have to go into gory detail.  I am interested in something like:

1 prepare leavain from starter
2 Develop leavain over x hours at room? temperature
3 mix dough
4 stretch and folds - for how long?
5 any room temperature rise or right into fridge?
6 in fridge for 3 / 4.5 days
7 room temperature to complete fermentation - for how long?????

I ask because I think with sourdough, the vast bulk of the actual rising, etc happens at room temperature and very little happens in terms of rise in the fridge, although there are still chemical reactions occurring that change the flavor.  My guess is that everything happened (in terms of "dough doubling" type behavior) at room temperature, both before and after the CF.  But, first, please help clarify what you actually did.
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2015, 04:26:18 PM »
Sure, Mitch..though there are some details I don't have, like the exact levain time..but will fill in best as I can. The levain  took longer than I expected but I wanted it fully developed and it was  (the reason you'll see the dough balls were fermented separately was for experimentation.

Your steps are right on the money.

1 Levain per Forkish's proportions
2 Approximately 12 hours (I think, maybe a couple more) RT 68-70F
3 Dough mixed by hand, 64% includes water in levain
4 With all mixed in, rested dough  1 hr at 69F
5    3 SF'  (gosh, maybe 4)s at approximately 20-30min intervals
6   Divided dough (but not balled) into two containers
7    Wednesday1:30 pm #! direct to CF 36F,  #2 to RT 70 for 4 hours
8   Wedneday 5:30 pm  #2 to CF 36
9 Friday 4:30 pm #2, balled and back to CF
10 Sat 9 am #2 back to RT 70, 3.5 hours, then return to CF (appears fully fermented)
11  Saturday evening   #2  1-ish hour on counter
12  Launch on BS at 650, turn down heat after about 1 minute, Bake 5..Very good
13  Saturday 11 pm, Ball #1 and overnight at RT 66--67   8 hrs RT, then back to fridge
14 Monday 8 am to counter for 1.5 hours
15 Launch in BS at 690, Bake 4 mins   Very good but SD flavor far more upfront than Saturday bake

And yes, I think absolutely most of rise happened during RT, but I could see some developing during CF.  What's interesting and confusing to me, is that even after the dough was quite fermented and I put it back in frdige, with this formula using levain, all is well. When I try this with non-levain, ie, starter-only doughs, are when my SD fails occur . Though I think I did a test you followed with me a little while ago, where as long as all the RT came at the end, I was fine. But here, it's RT followed by CF...in the other formula, a direct path to zero pizza on the table.

Thanks Mitch

Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2015, 04:44:36 PM »
Thanks Bill, this helps a lot.
Please indulge me, I realize I have a couple more clarifying questions.

1 How much of the total flour was in the levain?  For example, in his "Country Blonde", 12.5% of the total flour is in the levain.  I ask since, the more there is in there already, the less time and fermentation is left to go.

2. I am confused on the difference between this approach and the "fail" you had.  Really, isn't levain just a lot of starter?  So, using "Starter" in a certain quantity and using "Levain" in the same quantity are really the same thing, aren't they?  (although the levain is very fresh, having just been fed, the starter can be in the same state).  So, what was really different (starter vs levain semantics aside)?

I think you are saying that the "starter only" only worked if  all the RT was at the end.  I don't see why it needs to be that way (that is the part I don't get).  For example, I recently made a SD pizza dough that was at 62 degrees for 2 days with somewhere around 1.5% starter.  I don't remember the exact details, but it does not matter - it was like one of Craig's doughs.  But, then I needed to cancel pizza night.  So, I put the dough containers into the fridge.  The next day, I took them out of the fridge, let them warm up to to room temperature for a hour or 2 and then made pizza.  No problem, all went well.  So, that was an RT first, CF second dough.

So, help me understand a bit more what you think was different in workflow or amounts or time or whatever for the "fail" compared to the "success"

thanks for the clarifying info in advance.

- M

Mitch

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Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2015, 05:07:44 PM »
Sure, Mitch..though there are some details I don't have, like the exact levain time..but will fill in best as I can. The levain  took longer than I expected but I wanted it fully developed and it was  (the reason you'll see the dough balls were fermented separately was for experimentation.

Your steps are right on the money.

1 Levain per Forkish's proportions
2 Approximately 12 hours (I think, maybe a couple more) RT 68-70F
3 Dough mixed by hand, 64% includes water in levain
4 With all mixed in, rested dough  1 hr at 69F
5    3 SF'  (gosh, maybe 4)s at approximately 20-30min intervals
6   Divided dough (but not balled) into two containers
7    Wednesday1:30 pm #! direct to CF 36F,  #2 to RT 70 for 4 hours
8   Wedneday 5:30 pm  #2 to CF 36
9 Friday 4:30 pm #2, balled and back to CF
10 Sat 9 am #2 back to RT 70, 3.5 hours, then return to CF (appears fully fermented)
11  Saturday evening   #2  1-ish hour on counter
12  Launch on BS at 650, turn down heat after about 1 minute, Bake 5..Very good
13  Saturday 11 pm, Ball #1 and overnight at RT 66--67   8 hrs RT, then back to fridge
14 Monday 8 am to counter for 1.5 hours
15 Launch in BS at 690, Bake 4 mins   Very good but SD flavor far more upfront than Saturday bake

And yes, I think absolutely most of rise happened during RT, but I could see some developing during CF.  What's interesting and confusing to me, is that even after the dough was quite fermented and I put it back in frdige, with this formula using levain, all is well. When I try this with non-levain, ie, starter-only doughs, are when my SD fails occur . Though I think I did a test you followed with me a little while ago, where as long as all the RT came at the end, I was fine. But here, it's RT followed by CF...in the other formula, a direct path to zero pizza on the table.

Thanks Mitch

BTW, if I am tracking correctly, here is what you did for #1 vs. #2

#1

1 hour room temp
1 1/2 hours room temp (roughly) during S&F
CF 2 days?
8 hours room temp
CF 1 day?
1 1/2 hours room temp

Total 13 hours at room temp, 3 days CF

#2

1 hour room temp
1 1/2 hours room temp (roughly) during S&F
4 hours at room temp
CF 2 days, ball and back to CF
3.5 hours RT and back to CF
1.5 hours RT

Total 11.5 hours RT, 4.5 CF

I am not sure if I tracked everything, but I though the most important was "how many hours at RT?"

Although number 2 was at RT less time and CF more time, it is probably inexact when trying to do apples and apples.  When it goes in the fridge, it takes time (3 hours?) to get to the CF temperature.  And, when you remove from the fridge to ball and then return, it is spending some time warming up to RT and then needs to cool back down.  So, the RT/CF is not an off/on switch.  The temperatures move somewhat slowly when adjusting to the environment.

My thinking is going to be that, for the amount of levain/starter used, something like 12 or 14 hours at room temperature is sufficient for baking the dough.  The time spent in CF is affecting the rise very little (although, as I said, it takes time to get down to 36 and there is some development occurring then).  While in CF, there are still flavor changes happening.  In other words, if you put two sourdoughs side by side (pizza or bread) and they are both equally "developed" they will have different flavor profiles depending on the temperature they were fermented.  The higher temps have a more pronounced flavor from the lacto bacteria while the lower temps have a more pronounced flavor from the yeast.  I do not have a lot of expertise here but I think that is basically it -  different temperature profiles give you different flavors. 


Mitch

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2015, 05:26:34 PM »
Sure Mitch..

1...So, I was sharpening my pencil and scratching my head trying to figure the actual numbers. Forkish's formula shows the levain flour being 10% of the total flour...and if I did my calculations right (and that's a big If) then I'm probably close to that.  Here were my numbers, final mix  200gms 00 flour, 100 g BF, 184 cold water,  1.3 t salt, no additional IDY70 gms levain(which was made from 12.5 gms of starter, 25 gms BF, 12.5 gms WW, 25 gms water (not all but almost all levain was used..as noted 70 gms)

2..I can see why you're confused. Yes, it does seem that a levain is just a lot of starter..and if we replace the term levain  with preferment, there was a discussion here not that long along with Peter and Craig ( I was just an onlooker  about that very topic. And I see your point about what's different besides semantics? I don't think I've got the answer..unless the answer is that it's a small amount of starter that's working on a percentage of the total flour...thus creating it's own entity..ie the starter isn't trying to work on the total flour in the formula..just the amount in the the prferment. Is that possibly where the difference might be?

Part 2..Yes, I agree. I don't get it either. So I'm thinking I'm doing something wrong..I just can;'t see what that is. If I tried to make the dough you describe putting in the fridge  and then successfully using it...well, then I'd be the guy ringing your doorbell asking for a pizza handout because mine would have ripped and been in the garbage can.  :) So clearly, somewhere in my use of that process, I'm failing to form gluten..or destroying the gluten I've formed. I'm wondering if my amount of starter is too low in those to support the time in the fridge? But that doesn't make sense to me either. I understand pizza isn't bread, but I just made a 36 HR RT loaf with 1.5% Moby, then overnight proofed it in the fridge and it came out great..so I don't know.

I hope the above answers the questions in the last question re workflow. If not I'll try to explain more.

It was certainly interesting by the way, how much more SD flavor was in the 4.5 day dough, compared to the 3. The 3 was really irresistible...the 4.5, quite resistible.


Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2015, 06:22:44 PM »
Ok, I did some quick math (hopefully right) and got the flour in the levain to be about 12% of the total flour. (I would guess you got 10% because you did not include the flour from the starter in the total flour and only used the non-starter flour (the 300)). Fair enough.  If you look at Craig's chart (which is based on 100% hydration starter), it would be like looking up 24% as the starter.  That gives a fermentation at 72 degrees of 8 or 9 hours.  Lots of variables, and the chart is a starting point, but it sure seems like things acted as they should.  Your dough was ready and probably more than ready when you baked.

So, I vaguely recall the thread where you had the "fail" and now you are reminding me that it had to do with the dough ripping.  Please give me the link so I can see what you did.

In general, I am going to say that there is no reason why an SD dough with RT first followed by CF should not work OK.  In theory, the extra time in CF is going to exist to change the flavor profile and not do much for the rise (but it will do some if for no other reason that it takes quite awhile to cool down and will be active during that time).  The lower temps will promote a more sour and pronounced taste which, at some point, will offend you.

So, if you want to do this for the flavor profile, then I see no reason why not.  Not everyone agrees.  You know Craig sees only negative impact for CF of SD.  For me, @ 24 hours CF after the RT ferment, I found it fine.  But, I was not doing it for flavor, i was doing it for scheduling.  I can see going longer increases the sour notes.  You probably know the same from baking sourdough breads- many recipes call for retarding the dough in the fridge.

Regarding the ripping, I am more intrigued with that as to why it happened.  I can't see how it was the "order of the temperatures".  It probably was something more fundamental, like mixing, insufficient gluten development rather than the fact that it went to sleep in the fridge for awhile. 

But, that is a guess, of course.  If you really want to pursue it, I would try it again.  Make a dough with SD starter, let it ferment at RT until it is only a few hours away from being fully ready and put it in the fridge for a couple of days.  Even if you don't make a pizza, you are just making a dough to see how it handles.  That way, you are not investing a meal and only investing a bit of flour - cheap thrills!

thoughts?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 06:28:30 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2015, 07:19:48 PM »
Mitch,

Thank you so much for helping troubleshoot this with me..You did a lot of work on this!! Yes, I absolutely see what you're saying here.  As you suggested I iinclude   Here are a couple of links to posts I've made regarding this situation...and something interesting turns out in the first one

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34970.msg349250#msg349250


http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38337.msg383852#msg383852


It appears that I have my starter quantity listed incorrectly, because of the confusion between starter and levain. In fact, the number I'm showing there..24%...seems to be the same number you came up with in the first line of the note I'm responding to now.

As i go over this all and try to trace steps, I'm wondering if possibly in the earlier attempts my starter wasn't as active as it needed to be. I'd imagine that could make a big difference. Though could it seem active enough for a full rise (if I had one!) but then essentially "die" in the fridge?

I think your idea to give it another try with just the SD starter is a good one..not the preferment but just straight active starter. Are you thinking I should try around 5 percent and go for a long RT fermentation,  or would this make more sense with a larger amount of starter? Or perhaps 2 tests?

Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2015, 07:44:58 PM »
Some thoughts:

1 Sometimes, there is confusion here at pm.com about the Starter %.  The denominator is always supposed to be the total flour, including the flour in the starter.  If you are measuring the starter flour (preferment flour, levain flour) as a % of the total flour, you ignore the water in the starter.  If you are measuring the starter, then you include the water.

Example:

95 grams flour
60 grams water
10 grams starter (100% hydration) = 5 grams flour + 5 grams water.

The total flour is 100.  The starter as a % is 10/100 = 10%.  The starter flour as a % is 5/100 = 5%.  Craig's chart is based on starter %.  For the low quantities so often used such as 1 or 2%, it does not really matter much.  But, for higher numbers, like 12% of total flour being preferment because the total starter is 24% it obviously makes a difference.

2 I tend to start a dough with starter that has been recently fed and has doubled.  You do not have to do that.  But, if you don't then you need to use a bit more starter or give the dough a bit more time since the starter needs more oomph to get moving.  At the extreme, just as an example, if you take a container of starter that has been sitting at the back of the fridge for a few months, you are going to have trouble if you don't feed it first a couple of times.

I think the trick here is to try to be consistent and to use reasonably fresh starter.

3. I think starting the way you said, with maybe 5% sounds fine.  Let the dough develop until it is a few hours from being ready, put it in the fridge for 2 days, and see what happens.

What is not clear to me, still, is what you want to accomplish or learn here.  Is it to learn if you can?
I think you should find the answer to be "yes" and nothing wrong with proving it out for yourself.  My point is that I do not think you will find that some CF improves the dough.  But, it is a good tool if you need to schedule things.

I have been playing around with something somewhat similar lately.  I really like the dough from Brian Spangler ("How to get rid of the water" is the thread in which he shares it).  I love the way it handles and I like the flavor.  But, it requires you to be in the kitchen most of the day.  So, why not get through the stretch and folds and toss it in the fridge rather than keep going and bake the same day?  Captain Bob is doing something similar and he thinks he is coaxing more flavor out of it.  I have been playing with it, using SD instead of yeast preferment and putting it in the fridge (there is IDY in there) to see how it works for scheduling and also for flavor.  I have gotten some great doughs but I cannot say they are "better."

I am just sharing this to let you know that this is not unheard of but that I am encouraging you to be clear about what you want to figure out, etc.  With SD doughs, I think you will find that the best results come from the simplest approach - 1 or 2 days of RT (cool temperatures preferred) like what Craig does.  I do not think you will get improved flavor or texture from CF but I do think you create more schedule flexibility and it is less of a high wire act to make sure all the trains run on time in terms of dough development.

Have fun! (Who knew pizza would be so dang complicated?  :P )

« Last Edit: October 12, 2015, 07:46:31 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2015, 09:04:07 PM »
That's for sure, Mitch!

To answer your question, yes, pretty much I just want to learn so I know what the parameters are.The first time I tried this dough (and the time that made the most sense ;)) was when I had some leftover levain from Forkish SD breads..he suggests using it in pizza, and I gave  it a shot. I do like it. But on the other hand, I like SD in bread a lot more than in pizza, at least from what I've baked so far. I made, as I mentioned, an SD loaf this morning, not exactly from Forkish, but just using 1.5% Moby and a 36 hr RT ( I was hoping for 48 but will have to do that when basement is cooler..or maybe go to .7 percent Moby.

I suspect the reason I'm doing multi-day ferments for SD pizza is that I'm very hooked on multi-day IDY doughs, including the Spangler dough you're working with. That one is my go-to dough and I really enjoy the flavor profiles as days pass. I've tried it at various steps along the way, timewise. I've also played with RT and with CF and definitely mixed both techniques.  Usually after I mix it now, I'll give it a few hours at RT , 3 or 4, before putting it in the fridge..then further along in the process, more RT time, usually after a Fazzari-inspired late-ball. Then back in fridge until an hour or so before bake time (depends on kitchen temp). I find that when I get the dough too warmed up, ie above say 65, I tend to have launch stickiness..of course, the gluten breakdown from multi-day ferments is a big factor in that. I've also, by the way, and I tried this first, essentially fully fermented it at RT, then popped it in the fridge for a few days .

Since the IDY is so low for the RT ferment, the cold of the fridge doesn't tend to blow it out. And if it is a little over-fermented, the late-balling tends to remedy that.  I did a pretty careful comparison, by the  way, which was posted somewhere here, of the RT dough compared with the   CF dough..To my surprise, they were both very very good and I could not tell the difference. But then, there is definitely some RT time even in the CF dough

Thanks so much..I'm definitely having fun. I used to think there were only two questions to ask for pizza; "Pickup or delivery?"
 

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2015, 08:42:09 PM »
Quote
you are just making a dough to see how it handles.  That way, you are not investing a meal and only investing a bit of flour - cheap thrills!

Thrills are in progress, Mitch.  ;) Got the starter up and running last night, mixed the dough before breakfast this morning. Scaled it tonight a bit less than 12 hours into process  because it appears it'll be ready to bake tomorrow am (the first ball as per this test). So that one was balled and the container lightly oiled..The remaining dough was left unballed and will be balled 12-24 hours before its bake If it's ready in time, I see a potential breakfast pizza . The other ball will go into the fridge as planned and will bake Friday if all goes well. Planning to use kitchen oven for best consistency. The BS, fine tool that it is, can be tricky to control to the right temp, especially in lower temp bakes.  Thanks!

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2015, 01:22:04 PM »
Mitch,

One more math question for you while we wait for the test dough to spend its  time in the fridge (by the way, full report coming, but the first DB was very good this morning for breakfast ..in a word, Yum))

So..In working with Forkish's levain..the standard one that he shows in the book for most (all?) of his levain recipes, it's, I think, an 80% hydration preferment. So..when making a recipe that's not from his book, using this levain (or a scaled-down version of it)  to determine how much water to add to the final mix, one needs to know how much water is already in the levain.  And right there is why math was essentially a Fail for me!  :-[ 

Am I correct, that the water percentage in an 80% hydrated preferment is 44.4%?

(Holding my breath, just like I did whenever I turned in a math test) :)


Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2015, 01:36:25 PM »
Ding!  We have a winner!  ;D

Yes, an 80% hydrated starter has 44.444.....% water.

I actually on the run right now.  I will try to remember to give you an example of how to do the conversion when I return home later.

Best,
M
Mitch

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2015, 01:41:24 PM »
Thanks Mitch--have a good day

Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2015, 03:23:32 PM »
Ok, back now.

Let's say you have a recipe that has this much flour, water, starter (in grams):

Flour 90
Water 60
Starter 20

and the starter is 100% hydrated.  So, it is 100 parts flour for every 100 parts water (so, 50% flour, 50% water).

Then, the recipe, including all the parts of the starter, looks like this:

Flour 100 (90+10)
Water 70 (60+10).

We can say that 10% of the flour comes from the starter.

Now, let's say you want the same recipe, in terms of hydration @ 70% and 10% of the flour coming from starter.  But, the starter is 80% hydration.  So, it is 100 parts flour for ever 80 parts water, or 100 parts flour for every 180 total (55.555%).

Knowing you want 10 grams of  flour coming from the starter (because that is 10% of the total flour) and the starter is 100 parts flour for every 180 parts starter:

10 grams flour X 180 starter/100 flour = 18 grams starter.
So, the starter is 18 grams, of which 10 grams is flour.  Therefore, the water is 8 grams.

The total recipe of
100 flour
70 water

becomes

90 flour (100 total - 10 in starter)
62 water (70 total - 8 in starter)
18 starter

Hope that helps and please let me know if you have more questions.

- M
Mitch

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2015, 04:51:34 PM »
Well, Mitch..yes , I think I'm the guy the quote was written for below your signature  :)   

Seriously it does help and you make the concept very clear. It's definitely tricky though for guys like me with no head for math. If I'd known I'd be baking, I'd have  paid a whole lot more attention in high school  ;)

For the likes of me, thankfully there's the Three Way Percentage calculator online. I actually got myself to the place where I realized that to see what the amount of water was in any given preferment percentage, I'd need to add water percentage number (say 80) to the flour and get that sum (say 180). Then plug in the numbers to the calculator   (80 equals what % of 180 ?)  to get my 44.444..% water  The rest would be from the flour. So when I looked at the overall flour and water of the loaf, I added the preferment flour to the total flour, subtracted the preferment water from the total water needed . My math dunce way of getting to the right place (while still understanding the concept) Am I right in my understanding?

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 05:52:56 PM »
Well, Mitch..yes , I think I'm the guy the quote was written for below your signature  :)   

Seriously it does help and you make the concept very clear. It's definitely tricky though for guys like me with no head for math. If I'd known I'd be baking, I'd have  paid a whole lot more attention in high school  ;)

For the likes of me, thankfully there's the Three Way Percentage calculator online. I actually got myself to the place where I realized that to see what the amount of water was in any given preferment percentage, I'd need to add water percentage number (say 80) to the flour and get that sum (say 180). Then plug in the numbers to the calculator   (80 equals what % of 180 ?)  to get my 44.444..% water  The rest would be from the flour. So when I looked at the overall flour and water of the loaf, I added the preferment flour to the total flour, subtracted the preferment water from the total water needed . My math dunce way of getting to the right place (while still understanding the concept) Am I right in my understanding?

I think you have it.

I pause because you said you "added the preferment flour to the total flour."  The preferment flour is actually part of the total flour.  Take a look at the preferment calculator tool on this website.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html
You can see that the total flour (which is in the "total formula") is composed of the preferment (i.e. starter) flour + the final dough flour.  Could be just semantics and you are doing/thinking of it right.

Maybe use the calculator to create a couple of bread formulas with preferments to see if it is all behaving as you want.  The thing that I focused on before, besides math, was to think of it in terms of a "goal" - given the targeted hydration and the targeted "percent of total flour that is in the preferment" and the hydration of the starter, then what is the dough formula?

- M
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 06:13:01 PM »
 
Quote
ould be just semantics and you are doing/thinking of it right.

Yup, I'd have the right amount of flour in there.

It's really helpful , Mitch...I wasn't even thinking of using  the calculator here for bread, but of course, why not?   

Is this the right one? http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html   What adaptations would need to be made to use it for bread since TF and balls don't apply...Just total weight of dough expressed as a single ball?

Thanks!



Online mitchjg

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 06:43:47 PM »

Yup, I'd have the right amount of flour in there.

It's really helpful , Mitch...I wasn't even thinking of using  the calculator here for bread, but of course, why not?   

Is this the right one? http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html   What adaptations would need to be made to use it for bread since TF and balls don't apply...Just total weight of dough expressed as a single ball?

Thanks!

Yes, exactly.  You can use it to create a bread dough in a flash, very handy.  And, yes, you just specify one dough ball and what weight you want the dough ball to be.  You dial in the %'s and it gives you back the amounts in ounces or grams.  All in a nice, neat printout, too.

(thanks to Boy Hits Car and Peter!)

The only "fault" in it (and it is not really a fault) is that I believe the right way to think about preferments is to think, as I mentioned, as the preferment flour as a % of the Total Formula Flour.  But, that is not a check box.  Given, however, that most of the time, I use 100% hydration starter, then it is easy to see the numbers in a flash.  So, if I want 10% of the Total Formula Flour to be in the starter, then I know I want the starter to be 20% of the Total Formula Flour.  A bit trickier for other hydrations (or even starters with multiple flours), as in the example of the 80% hydration, but not really a big deal to pull out the calculator on the side.

Actually, I tend to only use it once in awhile.  The other thing I do (and I bet you do it, too), is use multiple flours.  So, not only are you calculating the starter %, etc. but you are also manipulating things such as 75% of the flour is bread flour and 25% is whole wheat.  I end up creating an Excel spreadsheet most of the time - it what is natural for me to do since I have spent many of hours of my life using Excel.

But, yes, the preferment calculator (and also the other calculators there) are excellent for creating a bread recipe.  Definitely play around with it, I think you will like it a lot.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 07:24:57 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 07:19:03 PM »
It's really helpful , Mitch...I wasn't even thinking of using  the calculator here for bread, but of course, why not?   
Bill,

It was always anticipated that the preferment dough calculating tool could be used to make bread dough, as I mentioned in the third paragraph from the bottom at Reply 6 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12979.msg126689;topicseen#msg126689

Actually, all of the dough calculating tools, with the possible exception of the deep dish dough calculating tool, can be used for other than pizza dough. There are all kinds of dough recipes that contain flour, water, salt, yeast, oil and sugar, and so long as you have the numbers or can calculate the numbers for use in a given tool, you should be able to come up with baker's percent versions of the recipes. It gets a bit harder when there are ingredients that are not listed in a given tool, but even then one can use one or more other entries in the expanded dough calculating tool as proxies for the other ingredients called for by the recipe. However, one should ignore the volume conversions in the output since they will be incorrect.

Peter

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 11:03:07 PM »
Mitch, Peter,
Yes, thank you both so much. Mitch, yes you're right about multiple flours..that can make some terrific bread. I made a Forkish Field Blend 1 (or maybe 2) the other day...and totally played aroun d with the flours. Since I was using a lot of whole grains, i thought it kight throw off my HR level a lot, so I added the water gradually to make sure I wasn't over or unde-hydrating. There was certainly some guesswork involved, but I knew how I wanted the dough to feel, and by the second stretch/fold, i knew it was going to be fine. I did leave out the VWG this time (I know it's not a well-loved ingredient here) but next tiime I bake that way, it's back in the mix. The loaf just didn't get the rise I would like: there was only about 25% BF in the mix, the rest WW and rye flours. Bring on the VWG...that's why they call it vital!  :-D

That's a great tool, Peter..thanks to you and Boy Hits Car (who I guess was here well before my time)

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Why does this work?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2015, 11:26:47 AM »
First, ..on the dough calculator for bread, I'll have to play with it some more, because i see that I was entering my values incorrectly. I was trying to work with the levain % from Forkish's recipes and getting results that were off...but then saw the very small print in his book, that the precentages were of the total recipe flour. So, onward on that...

Okay, Mitch...your encouragement to experiment with the SD issue took me to a good result. Well, first, let me say that the results aren't pretty. ..the photos that is. Let me start piling on the excuses   :-[ Okay, well, I'm a little out of practice int eh home oven after BS'ing (also Blackstoning) all summer. So I didn't rotate the pies and got an uneven bake..also this morning on pie #2, inexplicably (actually, I can explain it: I'm an idiot) when I switched over to Broil pre-bake, I turned Bake off..but forgot to turn Broil on...so the steel was getting colder by the moment and wife needed to grab breakfast fast and head out the door ..uh-oh Breakfast Pizza 9-1-1. So speed was of the essence, and well, quality was a bit off.

But more important, the good news: The experiment, as you suggested, was successful. I got a good dough after the RT fermentation (timing below) and still a good dough after it sat in the fridge for another 2 days. Both very flavorful, different but not dramatically.

To wit:

100 % BF
64 (or actually I think it was 65?% )HR..I'll explain below
5 % active homemade starter ((   I call it JPB...who knows why  ;))
1.75-ish % salt

Hand mixed, rested 20 min, 3 sets S/F at 20 min intervals. Then to RT 69F    11 hours later, balled #1 DB, and returned to RT. At 15 hours, the dough was progressing too quickly, so put into cooler with ice packs at 61F overnight. At 22 hours, both #1 and #2 pit in fridge at 35F.    ( seem to be missing a note when I took the dough out of frdige..ordinarily about an hour..probably what I did here) Three hours later,  Wednesday 8 AM , baked # 1 on steel, launch IR 645 , oven at 550. Baked  4 minutes, broil for 2. very good flavor, nice crispiness. Sourdough noticeable but very mild

Thursday Ball #2    6:45 am Balled and to counter. Then back to fridge at 12:30 pm Thursday  fully fermented. Friday morning 6 am, ball to counter, Bake about a hr later, dough temo at opening 55F. no problem, easy to open, no  tearing or holes.  Because of issue above with oven temp turned off, and need for speed, i left broiler on for entire bake. 4 minutes. Softer than my usual pie but not at all objectionable. Only thing (other than over-charred rim due to lack of turning) that wasn't as good as i'd hoped was that the rim was unusually chewy.,Was it the SD? Unlikely over mixed..by hand. Also, the bottom color more pale than I prefer..a lot more pale, but i noted this before withmy SD pizza bakes. Not really a problem, just a visual I don't love...somewhat yellow-ish rather than brown.

But the main thing...the dough holding up just fine, was confirmed,. And I do agree Mitch that there's not much flavor improvement to be gained with the longer time..with my SD at least. When I use IDY, I definitely prefer the flavors of a longer ferment. That doesn't seem to translate to my SD pies.

I can see making this recipe for a change of pace, but for my go-to formula, I'd go with Scholl's by far.

Thanks for your encouragement in working this through!

Some photos below (they tasted better than they look)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:29:06 AM by Jersey Pie Boy »