Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”

[norma427]

I have been on the journey learning about the history of tomato pies and also trying to make tomato pies since I have been working on the boardwalk thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.0.html The tomato pie that I was trying to recreate on that thread was a Mack's pizza and I was helped by many members on that thread in my journey.

I recently learned more about tomato pies after watching the Pizza Cuz show on the Cooking Channel and the Papa's tomato pies that were part of the second episode.   http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/05/trentons_famed_papas_tomato_pi.html I really didn't know about Papa's tomato pies until that episode.  I had no knowledge that Papa's Tomato Pies weathered the city's economic and social change for 100 years and lays claim to being the oldest family owned pizzeria in the country.  Papa's main competitor for the title is New York City-based Lombardi's Pizzeria, closed for a decade in the 1980s and reopened under a new family's ownership.  I really don't know if Papa's or Lombardi's is the oldest pizzeria in the US on record, but I did do some research about how pizzas started in the US at this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.0.html   

As explained in the article above the “Trenton tomato pie” is recognized by enthusiasts as a special kind of pizza, prepared in reverse with cheese and toppings cooked underneath the tomato sauce. 

Some articles say the best tomato pies are at Papa's pizzeria and some say the best tomato pies are at DeLorenzo's http://www.goodfoodstories.com/2012/02/06/trentons-tomato-pies/ but that might be up for debate depending on each persons tastes.

I am posting the link to what other type of tomato pies there are so no one that reads this thread gets confused on what type of tomato pie I am trying to make.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_pie  I did have the opportunity to taste those other types of Tomato Pies when Bob1 brought me one from Joseph Corropolese Bakery & Deli  at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19389.msg189708.html#msg189708 and when Steve and I went to Marchiano’s Bakery “Tomato Pies” Roxborough-Manayunk
at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21096.msg211948.html#msg211948

This is another article about Papa's Tomato Pies at http://www.papastomatopies.com/ There are different links in that article and this is one of them  http://www.papastomatopies.com/reviews.php Nick Azzaro explains in this video why a tomato pie is called the tomato pie. http://www.viddler.com/v/23885b17  I wish I had a direct link to that video that Ed10s26 posted, but I don't.  Nick Azzaro explains a lot about the olden days.  Nick Azzaro says some funny things in the video and one that I though was funny was when he compared pizza to sex.  The video is 8:27 minutes.

There is also a podcast about who is the oldest pizzeria in the US at  http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html? action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=139640932&m=139650507  The link was from this article.  http://www.npr.org/2011/08/15/139640932/for-slice-of-fame-pizzerias-spar-over-oldest-title  In the podcast it mentions Ed Levine of book “A Slice of Heaven” and the two oldest pizzerias in the US.

This article also tells about tomato pies and what has changed.  http://hamiltonhigh1951.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/19752babie2bazzaro2bpapa2527s2btomato2bpies.jpg   

If interested, this article is about when DeLorenzo's Pizza decided to close up shop at their Hamilton location establishment due to the uptick in crime.  http://www.trentonian.com/article/20121128/FINANCE01/121129652/delorenzo-s-moving-from-trenton-to-hamilton  My friend Bill and I tried to visit that DeLorenzo's location.  That DeLorenzo's location in Hamilton was closed on April 13, 2013 as reported in this article.  http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/the-insider/End-of-a-tomato-pie-era-in-Trenton.html I didn't get to try a DeLorenzo's tomato pie when I was in Trenton, but might in the future.  Bill and I did go to Risoldi's Market & Cafe http://www.risoldimarket.com/ where DeLorenzo's was once located, but they were not there anymore.

There are also many other links about tomato pies on the web, but I won't bore anyone looking at this post with all of them now.  I found some links to where it explains how the Mack's studied tomato pies in Trenton and then how they are related to this, but right now I can't find the link.

Bill and I went on the journey to find a good tomato pie at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.0.html  Bill and I liked Joey's tomato pie the best and that is what I am trying to create.

Peter set-forth a formulation for me to try at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411  I mixed a dough yesterday with that formulation and used the mixing method of 1 minute mix time to hydrate the flour and other ingredients, but delayed the addition of oil until the one minute mark.  The oil was then added and the dough was mixed for 8 more minutes.  This is what the dough looked like after the first and second mix.  The dough is drier than most of my doughs.  The final dough temperature was 78.6 degrees F. 

If any member has more to contribute about tomato pies I would appreciate knowing more.

Norma

[norma427]

I couldn't find any fresh cake yeast when I was at the supermarket yesterday.  The man at the service desk told me that they only sell fresh cake yeast over the holidays, or during the winter.  I then went to the calculating tools and used an amount of IDY I thought would be okay for a one day cold ferment.  The baking stone in my home oven was heated to a little over 500 degrees F for over an hour.  The dough ball did more than double in size by a little, but I guess when I went to take that photo the measuring tape slipped.  The dough ball was pressed on fairly hard and the skin was fairly hard to stretch.  It sure could be tossed and twirled, but that didn't help a lot in opening the skin.  It can be seen that the skin didn't open evenly.  I used the stainless steel container to pour on the sauce in a spiral pattern and used 8.3 ounces of cheese to dress this tomato pie.  The bake time was long in my opinion at about 9 minutes.  Although the tomato pie was okay, it sure wasn't like the Joey's tomato pie I ate in Hamilton, NJ. 

The crust was too thick, the crust was too bready and the crust really didn't taste like Joey's tomato pie.  I want to make another dough to try at market on Tuesday, but really don't know what to try.  I don't know if the hydration was too low, or maybe the GM Full-Strength flour was too old.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Sorry to hear this one didn't turn out so swell Norma...you sure do have that spiral thing down pat though! 

[norma427]

Sorry to hear this one didn't turn out so swell Norma...you sure do have that spiral thing down pat though! 

Bob,

Thanks for the condolences, but usually when I try a new attempt things don't turn out right.  It then makes me want to understand what went wrong.  I had many pizza flops here on the forum. 

Norma

[Marvin]

Wow that looks awful. Lol
It looks good to me.
To be truthful ever since I joined the forum all
5 pizzas I have made have been bad
I think I am trying to hard to be perfect
1 -2 inches thick
2- toppings bad
3-to yeasty
4- sauce to powerful
5-  perfect tortilla
And burned a frozen store bought
But going to keep trying
My daughter is my best critic her reply is always -( doesn't taste like schools)

Pizza is fun
Thanks Marvin
 

[norma427]

Wow that looks awful. Lol
It looks good to me.
To be truthful ever since I joined the forum all
5 pizzas I have made have been bad
I think I am trying to hard to be perfect
1 -2 inches thick
2- toppings bad
3-to yeasty
4- sauce to powerful
5-  perfect tortilla
And burned a frozen store bought
But going to keep trying
My daughter is my best critic her reply is always -( doesn't taste like schools)

Pizza is fun
Thanks Marvin
 

Marvin,

If you would look at my first posts here on the forum, you would see how bad my pizzas looked.  I did about everything a pizza newbie could do wrong.  If you look at the Lehmann dough thread I think you or anyone can learn how to make a good pizza from there.  That is great to hear you are going to keep trying.  That is the best way to learn.  I am still learning and have made many pizzas. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I am quite certain that the dough formulation I gave you at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411 is correct based on the information you provided. I realized at the time that the hydration would be on the low side but I recalled that Big Dave Ostrander used a similar hydration value in different ones of his versions of the "Old Faithful" doughs. In fact, if you look at the Old Faithful dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976 and also the one at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605, you will see that the combined weighs/percents of the water and oil are about the same as the Rinaldi's dough formulation I gave you. In Big Dave's case, he was also using high-gluten flour, which should have resulted in an even thicker dough than if he had used a weaker flour. One area where the Old Faithful doughs differ from the Rinaldi dough (apart from using less salt and adding a bit of sugar) is that the Old Faithful skins are thicker than the Rinaldi skins (a thickness factor of about 0.11 compared with 0.0893 for the Rinaldi skins).

Since the Rinaldi pizza maker uses volume measurements for the water, I suppose that it is possible that the actual amount of water could be more, or possibly adjustments to the hydration are made in the mixer bowl.

Can you tell us how much IDY you used?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I am quite certain that the dough formulation I gave you at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411 is correct based on the information you provided. I realized at the time that the hydration would be on the low side but I recalled that Big Dave Ostrander used a similar hydration value in different ones of his versions of the "Old Faithful" doughs. In fact, if you look at the Old Faithful dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976 and also the one at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605, you will see that the combined weighs/percents of the water and oil are about the same as the Rinaldi's dough formulation I gave you. In Big Dave's case, he was also using high-gluten flour, which should have resulted in an even thicker dough than if he had used a weaker flour. One area where the Old Faithful doughs differ from the Rinaldi dough (apart from using less salt and adding a bit of sugar) is that the Old Faithful skins are thicker than the Rinaldi skins (a thickness factor of about 0.11 compared with 0.0893 for the Rinaldi skins).

Since the Rinaldi pizza maker uses volume measurements for the water, I suppose that it is possible that the actual amount of water could be more, or possibly adjustments to the hydration are made in the mixer bowl.

Can you tell us how much IDY you used?

Peter

Peter,

I am sure you gave the correct conversions from the recipe I gave you from the man at Risoldi's Pizzeria.  I thought when you posted the dough formulation the hydration looked really low to me.  I then recalled that I did try a Big Dave Ostrander's dough that was similar, but didn't exactly recall what else was in that formulation for the “Old Faithful” dough.  Thanks for your links to where you posted your “Old Faithful” dough formulations.

I think I might try a higher hydration dough if that might give me a better crust.  I think I have enough of the GM Full Strength flour at home to try another dough.  I left the Occident flour and Kyrol flour at market so I can't try them out today.  I used 0.50% IDY for about a 18 hr. cold ferment. 

Norma

[Marvin]

Thanks Norma
My mistakes where human eer ?
Like forgot yeast ,to much yeast ,and
Just trying new things
Not going to leave dough out to rise ,didn't like that at all
And sauces are not all alike(less may be better)
Thanks Marvin

[norma427]

Thanks Norma
My mistakes where human eer ?
Like forgot yeast ,to much yeast ,and
Just trying new things
Not going to leave dough out to rise ,didn't like that at all
And sauces are not all alike(less may be better)
Thanks Marvin

Marvin,

It doesn't sound too bad if your mistakes were human errors.  It is fun to try new things, but sometimes those results can become confusing if everything wasn't right in the first place.

Norma

[norma427]

I mixed another attempted dough before I went to market today.  I lowered the TF and also upped the hydration.  The mix methods were the same.  The dough felt a little better.

This is the formulation I am trying from photos.  I am using another computer and my printer doesn't want to hook up right to this computer, so I can't print out the formulation sheet.

It would be nice if the next pizza would be like part of this song, "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore".    The last photo was a picture I took last evening of the moon in our area.  It sure was big and orange, but the photo doesn't do the moon justice. 

Norma

[Chicago Bob]

Beauty full Norma...

[norma427]

Beauty full Norma...

Lol Bob, I think I need that light of that moon to make me look younger.  I recall that part of the movie (Moonstruck), but had forgot about it.  I really liked that movie.  When that moon first starting rising last evening the whole sky was orange, but until I got my camera and tried to figure out how to take a photo the sky turned to black with the bright orange moon.  I never saw something like that before.  So much for green cheese. 

Norma

[Condolini]

I've only been to this place once but the tomato pie was great. Hand tossed thin crust done in the brick oven. They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie. Roasted beet pizza, yum!

You go Norma!

[Chicago Bob]

I've only been to this place once but the tomato pie was great. Hand tossed thin crust done in the brick oven. They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie. Roasted beet pizza, yum!

You go Norma!

Condolini,
What do you mean by:  They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie
A half an half?
Thanks! 

[norma427]

I've only been to this place once but the tomato pie was great. Hand tossed thin crust done in the brick oven. They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie. Roasted beet pizza, yum!

Condolini,

Which pizzeria were you at that they baked their tomato pies in a brick oven?

Norma

[norma427]

I received a return phone call from Joe Kelly of General Mills today.  I talked to him about me wanting to be able to make a tomato pie and the Pillsbury 4X flour.  Joe told me after I explained what kind of tomato pie I was trying to make, that I should be trying higher protein flours than I have been using.  Joe said to be able to stretch a skin that thin a higher protein flour is better.  He called higher protein flours bread flour instead of high protein flour, but did tell me that a flour like Pillsbury balancer, Kyrol or All Trumps would be better than GM Full-Strength or Pillsbury 4X in stretching abilities.  Joey was going to send me a sample of Pillsbury 4X flour, but after talking to him I don't really think that the Pillsbury 4X flour would be the right flour for me to try for Tomato Pies.   

Joe gave me a formulation to try after I told him I use baker's percents for my dough batches.  He said I could try 55% water, 4% oil, 1.5% salt and 2 ˝ percent sugar with a higher protein flour.  I told Joe I only do a one day cold ferment of my dough balls and asked why sugar is needed for a one day cold ferment.  Joe told me sugar is needed for the yeast even in a one day cold ferment to make the dough mature faster, to be able to feed the yeast and make the bottom crust and rim crust brown better.  I said I always thought that sugar really wasn't needed for a one day cold ferment of a NY style dough. 

Joe also told me that GM Full Strength is a drier flour and if I used the GM Full-Strength flour for pizza dough that I could try 56-57% water because it is milled to be a drier flour.

Joe and I got to talking about Neapolitan pizzas too and Joe said there is a new Neapolitan flour that Pillsbury makes and it is called Gold Medal Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour.  http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gm-neapolitan-hearth-style-pizza-flour-50-lb/50237000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category    I told Joe I have a friend that makes Neapolitan pizzas and Joe said he would send me a sample of the new Neapolitan flour for him to try.  I know most members here on the forum prefer the Caputo Pizzeria flour, but what harm is there in trying a new flour for Neapolitan pizzas.  Joe sent me a formulation to try for a Neapolitan dough in an email if anyone is interested in seeing it.  I think this is the same Neapolitan Dough formulation at PMQ for the Gold Medal Neapolitan flour though.  http://www.pmq.com/May-2013/General-Mills-introduces-Gold-Medal-Neapolitan-flour/

Norma

[norma427]

Well, my second attempt at a Tomato Pie didn't go so well.  I removed the dough ball from the cooler at 1:30 PM and put it in the one tempering device I have so maybe I could open the dough ball sooner.  I only left the dough ball in the tempering device until the dough ball didn't feel really cold.  It then was left out much longer than I wanted.  The dough ball developed a big bubble on the top of the dough ball (which I didn't take a photo of).  When I thought the dough ball had warmed up enough then we became really busy and the dough ball was already floured and was ready to be opened.  I left it in the flour and proceeded to make other pizzas.  When I saw I didn't have time to open that dough ball into a skin, I then quickly put a cap over the dough ball.  We continued to be busy so the dough ball didn't get to be opened until 6:30 PM.  By that time a hard coat had formed on the outside of the top of the dough ball.  The dough ball was somewhat hard in opening it and it even had a tear, which I had to patch and also the skin stretched unevenly.  The dry part of the skin sure could be felt.  So much for that experiment for a Tomato Pie.  The final pizza wasn't anything like a Tomato Pie and wasn't good at all in my opinion. 

I don't know where I am going to go with trying another formulation or flour for a Tomato Pie.

Norma

[Condolini]

Sorry about my earlier post, was having some brain farts yesterday. Here's the website
http://salvatorestomatopies.com/current-menu/

They'll do a pie that's half Fat Uncle Tony and half Med if that's what you like. Not the best place for date night, a 16" pie is a lot for 2 people.