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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1020 on: June 11, 2014, 11:30:05 AM »
Hi Norma, thanks very much for the links.....I have a lot of reading to do.  :D

And a correction, with my Kitchen Aid, I have been using the flat beater and then the spiral hook, not a c-hook.
The kneading action does look different than with the Hobart, but I will see if a larger amount of dough changes the action.

As far as the thickness factor, I'm curious to know what the thickness is after baking for a DeLorenzo pie. My last effort had a fair amount of oven rise, and it doesn't sound like that is the desired effect for a tomato pie. The final height of the crust was about 1/4" sans cheese or toppings.
And there's a crispiness factor to be delved into later.

That's interesting that the Trenton tomato pie bears similarities to the NJ boardwalk style pizza.
I read much of your NJ boardwalk pizza thread and really enjoyed the experiments and the descriptions of the boardwalk, then and now......that type of pie sounds delicious, and I think the use of cheddar (and I think grated romano?), adds a whole new flavor element.

Charles

Charles,

I know it is tough sometimes, but the more reading that is done on what has been tried here on the forum does help.  In the end it might be worth reading all you can.  It took me a fair amount of years to be able to make a decent boardwalk style of pizza.  Have fun!  :-D

The kneading action in a Hobart and a Kitchen Aid mixer are really not that much different.  I have watched many doughs being made in my Hobart compared to doughs mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I have learned when the dough looks right in either mixer.  The Detroit style of dough also can be made in either my Hobart or Kitchen Aid with just the flat beater in two steps.  I think what you need to do is learn when your dough is mixed enough.  I also mix really small batches of dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer for Neapolitan doughs.  The Kitchen Aid seems to work okay for any type of dough.  Since you use a spiral hook on your Kitchen Aid you should be able to get good results using a combination of flat beater and and spiral hook.  The tricky part in my opinion is getting everything right in the bake.

I really don't know what TF of the crusts is after baking De Lorenzo's pies.  Members would have had to weigh baked pies (not too long after they came out of De Lorenzo's ovens), and then that always might not have been accurate enough.   From me watching at De Lorenzo's and seeing the videos and photos from De Lorenzo's I know they don't weigh their sauce or cheese. 

You could always roll the dough if you don't want a lot of rise.  The TF should be around what was posted.

Mack's does use all cheddar and no other cheese.

Norma
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:12:40 PM by norma427 »

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1021 on: June 11, 2014, 02:09:45 PM »
Charles,

I know it is tough sometimes, but the more reading that is done on what has been tried here on the forum does help.  In the end it might be worked reading all you can.  It took me a fair amount of years to be able to make a decent boardwalk style of pizza.  Have fun!  :-D

The kneading action in a Hobart and a Kitchen Aid mixer are really not that much different.  I have watched many doughs being made in my Hobart compared to doughs mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I have learned when the dough looks right in either mixer.  The Detroit style of dough also can be made in either my Hobart or Kitchen Aid with just the flat beater in two steps.  I think what you need to do is learn when your dough is mixed enough.  I also mix really small batches of dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer for Neapolitan doughs.  The Kitchen Aid seems to work okay for any type of dough.  Since you use a spiral hook on your Kitchen Aid you should be able to get good results using a combination of flat beater and and spiral hook.  The tricky part in my opinion is getting everything right in the bake.

I really don't know what TF of the crusts is after baking De Lorenzo's pies.  Members would have had to weigh baked pies (not too long after they came out of De Lorenzo's ovens), and then that always might not have been accurate enough.   From me watching at De Lorenzo's and seeing the videos and photos from De Lorenzo's I know they don't weigh their sauce or cheese. 

You could always roll the dough if you don't want a lot of rise.  The TF should be around what was posted.

Mack's does use all cheddar and no other cheese.

Norma


Thanks Norma, I think I will look for video showing the proper Kitchen Aid kneading action just to be sure.
Does your Hobart knead the dough with a similar action to the video I posted?

I know I read about one pizzeria adding grated aged cheese to their pie, maybe it was a NY style pie.


Charles

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1022 on: June 11, 2014, 03:12:09 PM »

Thanks Norma, I think I will look for video showing the proper Kitchen Aid kneading action just to be sure.
Does your Hobart knead the dough with a similar action to the video I posted?

I know I read about one pizzeria adding grated aged cheese to their pie, maybe it was a NY style pie.

Charles,

These first two videos are not from when I was making doughs for tomato pies.  I think (but can not recall) that the second two doughs in the Kitchen Aid were used to make De Lorenzo's clone attempts.  At least the videos can give you an example of how the dough is mixed in the Hobart and Kitchen Aid.  In the Hobart I only use speed 1 to mix NY style doughs.

NY style in Hobart (5 dough ball batch). 





Most of my doughs in the Hobart for NY style pizzas are mixed for about 6-7 minutes. 

Kitchen Aid

In the Kitchen Aid I sometimes use speed one and two with the flat beater if a small amount of dough is being mixed.





There are other videos I posted of my Hobart and Kitchen Aid mixing dough under the same youtube channel.

You are correct that some pizzeria's do add grated cheeses to their NY style pies.  Walter is one member that does add grated cheese after his NY style is baked.  I think adding grated cheese after the bake makes for an extra good tasting NY style pizza.

If you want to see some photos of what one of my De Lorenzo's dough ball looked like some are at Reply 692 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg280365#msg280365

If you want to see where Peter discussed De Lorenzo DB1, DB2 and DB3 you can read about that at Rely 664 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg280016#msg280016

Since you are relatively new to making pizza dough it might be a good idea to read some of Peter's posts on this thread on how he mixed his different doughs.  You might also want to read some of those posts by Peter on his Lehmann NY style thread.

Norma 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 03:14:10 PM by norma427 »

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1023 on: June 11, 2014, 03:41:25 PM »

There are other videos I posted of my Hobart and Kitchen Aid mixing dough under the same youtube channel.

You are correct that some pizzeria's do add grated cheeses to their NY style pies.  Walter is one member that does add grated cheese after his NY style is baked.  I think adding grated cheese after the bake makes for an extra good tasting NY style pizza.

If you want to see some photos of what one of my De Lorenzo's dough ball looked like some are at Reply 692 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg280365#msg280365

If you want to see where Peter discussed De Lorenzo DB1, DB2 and DB3 you can read about that at Rely 664 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg280016#msg280016

Since you are relatively new to making pizza dough it might be a good idea to read some of Peter's posts on this thread on how he mixed his different doughs.  You might also want to read some of those posts by Peter on his Lehmann NY style thread.

Norma


Norma, ah ha, I didn't have to look very far, thanks for the videos!

In my novice opinion, the Hobart seems to do a better job of kneading than the Kitchen Aid, but I could be wrong.
Do you often use the flat beater alone?
So far I have just used the flat beater to incorporate the mix, then the spiral hook to do the kneading.

I can see where the proper equipment plays a big role in quality dough.....now all I need is a Hobart 20 qt, a Blodgett single deck oven, and a cooler for my racks of dough balls. :-D

Thanks for the advice on reading more of Peter's posts. I think I will go back and read them again, select different versions and start practicing. Up until now, I have read so many threads about making various NY and NJ pizzas, my head is starting to spin.
Practice, and accurate records will hopefully guide me along, in lieu of actual training in a shop or class.

One thing that stood out for some reason was one of Trenton Bill's efforts at tomato pie, it looked nice and crispy, at least in the photo, I wonder if it tasted like the real deal.



Charles

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1024 on: June 11, 2014, 05:26:52 PM »

Norma, ah ha, I didn't have to look very far, thanks for the videos!

In my novice opinion, the Hobart seems to do a better job of kneading than the Kitchen Aid, but I could be wrong.
Do you often use the flat beater alone?
So far I have just used the flat beater to incorporate the mix, then the spiral hook to do the kneading.

I can see where the proper equipment plays a big role in quality dough.....now all I need is a Hobart 20 qt, a Blodgett single deck oven, and a cooler for my racks of dough balls. :-D

Thanks for the advice on reading more of Peter's posts. I think I will go back and read them again, select different versions and start practicing. Up until now, I have read so many threads about making various NY and NJ pizzas, my head is starting to spin.
Practice, and accurate records will hopefully guide me along, in lieu of actual training in a shop or class.

One thing that stood out for some reason was one of Trenton Bill's efforts at tomato pie, it looked nice and crispy, at least in the photo, I wonder if it tasted like the real deal.

Charles,

Lol about not having to look too far.  I try to detail what I do in case anyone wants to try the same things. That way I don't have to rely on my memory.  After trying so many dough formulations and pizzas I am sure I could not recall all that I have done.  My grammar is sure not the best, and sometimes what I write is not understandable, but at least I can mostly find what I did. 

The Hobart is a better mixer than the Kitchen Aid, but I think the Kitchen Aid does a decent job in mixing different doughs. 

To answer your question if I often use the flat beater alone the answer is no, but for smaller batches and some lower hydration doughs the flat beater can do a good job.  Also for my Detroit style dough at market and at home I use the flat beater only. 

Lol about you getting all of the proper equipment right away.  ;D I did without a lot of things when I was beginning to make pizzas.  I don't even have a Blodgett 1000 and probably never will.  You are right though that proper equipment does makes things easier.

I know about that head spinning thing.  This forum has so many talented pizza makers who share all that they do.  When I first came here to the forum I was overwhelmed and if you would go back to some of my first posts you would be able to see how many foul-ups I made.   :-D

Trenton Bills effort was very good, but for me it did not turn out exactly like a De Lorenzo's pizza.  I still wish I had an oven like Walter's to be able to try all of my pizza doughs.

Best of luck!  The more you practice your pizzas will get better.  I am still learning and have made many doughs and pizzas.

Norma

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Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1025 on: June 13, 2014, 01:28:56 AM »
OK, another attempt.
This time I went the way of a bit drier dough, hardly any oven rise, and a crispy crust.
There was not much planning here, but I had a 4 day (I think) dough ball waiting to become a pizza.
Similar dough processing to the prior dough, and just Gold Medal AP.

The first try at tomato pie seemed a little bready, so this one I stretched with plenty of bench flour.
The dough was more extensible than the one day dough and pretty easily worked out to 14" ( I need a bigger peel) on the bench and then a few easy tosses. It looked smoother than the previous effort. Some of the dough didn't fit on the screen, so it was inelegantly folded over.

Here's the catch.....I couldn't follow up properly by heating up the stone and making the pie with in the next hour. I went and played in my roller hockey league, and returned hungry about 3 hours later.

The skin was covered with paper towels to help against dehydration.
The oven got up to about 500, and I wanted to eat, so in it went for about 7 minutes.
Then down to the broiler for another 7. In between I moved the stone down to the broiler to try and get some browning. I need my pizza steel.

This time I had some Muir Glenn tomatoes/sauce and some Italbrand tomatoes as the sauce.
Cheese, then sauce and sausage.
Fresh basil, oil, and pepper after the bake.

This pie was much tastier than the first pie (hello, sausage), and was much crispier.
It was still pretty moist, and closer to the edge I could hear myself crunching away.
I think less drying time would have been a happy medium, so I'll try that next time.

I'm wondering if the Trenton pies have visible bubbles in the cooked crust, or is it more of a cracker, layer kind of thing. This pie had a bit of bubbles, but not much.

Good stuff though.....I wish I could try a real tomato pie.
I like this style, though. The cheese first keeps the crust from getting too wet.
Brilliant!

« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 01:31:40 AM by woodmakesitgood »
Charles

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1026 on: June 13, 2014, 08:16:12 AM »
OK, another attempt.
This time I went the way of a bit drier dough, hardly any oven rise, and a crispy crust.
There was not much planning here, but I had a 4 day (I think) dough ball waiting to become a pizza.
Similar dough processing to the prior dough, and just Gold Medal AP.

The first try at tomato pie seemed a little bready, so this one I stretched with plenty of bench flour.
The dough was more extensible than the one day dough and pretty easily worked out to 14" ( I need a bigger peel) on the bench and then a few easy tosses. It looked smoother than the previous effort. Some of the dough didn't fit on the screen, so it was inelegantly folded over.

Here's the catch.....I couldn't follow up properly by heating up the stone and making the pie with in the next hour. I went and played in my roller hockey league, and returned hungry about 3 hours later.

The skin was covered with paper towels to help against dehydration.
The oven got up to about 500, and I wanted to eat, so in it went for about 7 minutes.
Then down to the broiler for another 7. In between I moved the stone down to the broiler to try and get some browning. I need my pizza steel.

This time I had some Muir Glenn tomatoes/sauce and some Italbrand tomatoes as the sauce.
Cheese, then sauce and sausage.
Fresh basil, oil, and pepper after the bake.

This pie was much tastier than the first pie (hello, sausage), and was much crispier.
It was still pretty moist, and closer to the edge I could hear myself crunching away.
I think less drying time would have been a happy medium, so I'll try that next time.

I'm wondering if the Trenton pies have visible bubbles in the cooked crust, or is it more of a cracker, layer kind of thing. This pie had a bit of bubbles, but not much.

Good stuff though.....I wish I could try a real tomato pie.
I like this style, though. The cheese first keeps the crust from getting too wet.
Brilliant!

woodmakesitgood,

Are you using one of the De Lorenzo's/Sloans formulations from this thread to make your dough?  The reason I asked is because I can't tell because you left your dough skin sit out.  Your dough skin looks too dry.  I know you posted that you could not use the skin right away because of going to play in your roller hockey league.  Usually letting a dough skin sit out will dry it out too much even if you used paper towels. 

I think heating your stone for at least an hour will be the best if you decide to try another attempt. 

De Lorenzo's tomato pies really aren't like a cracker style pizza in the crust.  I can't exactly explain them right but there is a crispness almost the whole way across the bottom crust.

A lot of bench flour is really not needed.  I see a rolling pin in your photos.  Did you roll the skin?

If you look at De Lorenzo's tomato pies website that will give you an idea what their tomato pies look like.  http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/index2.html  I am not sure if this link will work but if you search De Lorenzo's tomato pies under Google images you can see many photos of what a De Lorenzo's tomato pie is supposed to look like.  https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=979&q=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&oq=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&gs_l=img.3...4331.24648.0.25282.42.37.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.46.img..42.0.0.WYWjGxjAWuU

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1027 on: June 13, 2014, 08:27:06 AM »
After looking at this link again in my opinion De Lorenzo's dough could be tossed.  If this one photo is looked at in the link, and the one I am posting, it shows how stretchy that dough is.  http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/11/owners_of_delorenzos_tomato_pies_in_robbinsville_planning_pennsylvania_restaurant.html 

What do other members think about how stretchy that dough looks?  If I magnify that photo the dough does look a little dry but has good stretching properties.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1028 on: June 13, 2014, 08:51:53 AM »
After thinking about the pizza I had at Star Tavern and comparing it too the tomato pie I had at De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville I think the bottom crust tasted almost the same even though both pizzerias use different methods to bake their pizzas.  This is a link to show a few more photos at De Lorenzo's Robbinville.  I think it the same bottom crunchy crust that makes both bottom crusts taste about the same to me.  Both pizzas are also very thin.

http://endoedibles.com/?p=13839

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1029 on: June 13, 2014, 09:01:03 AM »
After looking at this link again in my opinion De Lorenzo's dough could be tossed.  If this one photo is looked at in the link, and the one I am posting, it shows how stretchy that dough is.  http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/11/owners_of_delorenzos_tomato_pies_in_robbinsville_planning_pennsylvania_restaurant.html 

What do other members think about how stretchy that dough looks?  If I magnify that photo the dough does look a little dry but has good stretching properties.

Norma
Norma,

I do not believe that we have ever seen a photo or video where the workers at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville (and maybe even at the original location) tossed or twirled a skin. But that does not mean that it was not possible to do so. In this vein, you might recall that in Reply 627 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg279272#msg279272 I attempted to give a few reasons for not doing so. In my own experience with De Lorenzo clone doughs, I found that even with fairly modest hydration values and modest amounts of oil, it was not a good idea to attempt to toss or twirl the skins once they got to around 14". The reason was that the thickness factors we were using at the time were too small to risk stretching beyond 14" and then tossing and twirling and risking thin spots or tears developing in the skins. Since there was no need to toss and twirl skins, and the workers at De Lorenzo's apparently saw no need to entertain or put on a show for their guests by doing so, then why do it?

The other thing to keep in mind, which I am sure you have experienced yourself many times, both at home and at market, is that on any given day at any given moment, the dough can be just about anything--underfermented, overfermented or something in between. So, I wouldn't rely on a single photo as indicative of the way that things always are at De Lorenzo's. I am sure that they have their days where they do whatever they want to their skins with impunity and other days where they have to treat their skins with kid gloves.

Peter

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1030 on: June 13, 2014, 09:34:39 AM »
Norma,

I do not believe that we have ever seen a photo or video where the workers at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville (and maybe even at the original location) tossed or twirled a skin. But that does not mean that it was not possible to do so. In this vein, you might recall that in Reply 627 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg279272#msg279272 I attempted to give a few reasons for not doing so. In my own experience with De Lorenzo clone doughs, I found that even with fairly modest hydration values and modest amounts of oil, it was not a good idea to attempt to toss or twirl the skins once they got to around 14". The reason was that the thickness factors we were using at the time were too small to risk stretching beyond 14" and then tossing and twirling and risking thin spots or tears developing in the skins. Since there was no need to toss and twirl skins, and the workers at De Lorenzo's apparently saw no need to entertain or put on a show for their guests by doing so, then why do it?

The other thing to keep in mind, which I am sure you have experienced yourself many times, both at home and at market, is that on any given day at any given moment, the dough can be just about anything--underfermented, overfermented or something in between. So, I wouldn't rely on a single photo as indicative of the way that things always are at De Lorenzo's. I am sure that they have their days where they do whatever they want to their skins with impunity and other days where they have to treat their skins with kid gloves.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that we have never seen a photo or video where the workers at De Lorenzo's Robbinsville/or the other location have tossed or twirled a skin.  I recalled some of your post in Reply 627 but it was good to read it again.  I agree that is no need for De Lorenzo's to toss or twirl the dough and it would not serve any purpose even if they could toss and twirl the skin.  I somewhat forgot what those dough balls looked like in the first video you posted.  I wish we could see a photo of how the dough balls look like after they are fermented. 

Yes, I do know that on any given day the same dough can do many different things.  Many pizzeria operators also say the same.

If the photos I posted at Star Tavern are looked at it can be seen how the bottom crust looks about the same.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30978.msg308629#msg308629  I know when playing around with different formulations and different ovens one formulation can give very different results in different ovens.  Do you think the thinness and the bottom crust look almost like De Lorenzo's pizza? 

Norma

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1031 on: June 13, 2014, 09:53:57 AM »
Do you think the thinness and the bottom crust look almost like De Lorenzo's pizza? 

Norma
Norma,

If I had to guess from looking at the Star Tavern photos, they perhaps use a smaller thickness factor value than used at De Lorenzo's. Also, since the workers at Star Tavern roll out the skins with rolling pins or something similar, the bottom crusts at Star Tavern look even thinner than the De Lorenzo bottom crusts. Since you have had pizzas at both places, was that your impression also?

Peter

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1032 on: June 13, 2014, 02:57:00 PM »
woodmakesitgood,

Are you using one of the De Lorenzo's/Sloans formulations from this thread to make your dough?  The reason I asked is because I can't tell because you left your dough skin sit out.  Your dough skin looks too dry.  I know you posted that you could not use the skin right away because of going to play in your roller hockey league.  Usually letting a dough skin sit out will dry it out too much even if you used paper towels. 

I think heating your stone for at least an hour will be the best if you decide to try another attempt. 

De Lorenzo's tomato pies really aren't like a cracker style pizza in the crust.  I can't exactly explain them right but there is a crispness almost the whole way across the bottom crust.

A lot of bench flour is really not needed.  I see a rolling pin in your photos.  Did you roll the skin?

If you look at De Lorenzo's tomato pies website that will give you an idea what their tomato pies look like.  http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/index2.html  I am not sure if this link will work but if you search De Lorenzo's tomato pies under Google images you can see many photos of what a De Lorenzo's tomato pie is supposed to look like.  https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=979&q=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&oq=De+lorenzo%27s+tomato+pies+robbinville&gs_l=img.3...4331.24648.0.25282.42.37.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.46.img..42.0.0.WYWjGxjAWuU

Norma


Hi Norma, I think this dough was one of Peter's formulations from this thread, the one using Pillsbury AP flour.
Yes, the dough got a bit dry sitting out, but the cooked slice still was moist and had some flexibility.

It wouldn't be confused with a Trenton pie I'm sure, but I hope to keep improving and tweaking the process each time.
That way, even if I don't replicate a DL pie, I will have a pie that I like, is well made, and is reproducible.

The next time, I will have my 1/2" steel, and I'll pre-heat it to 550 if possible, using the IR gun.

No, I didn't roll the dough, and normally do not.....but I keep it handy just in case.  ;D
Thanks for the links, I'll try to learn what I can from the photos.
Charles

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1033 on: June 13, 2014, 03:53:40 PM »

A lot of bench flour is really not needed.  I see a rolling pin in your photos.  Did you roll the skin?

Norma


Norma, thanks for advice on bench flour.
I may have used a bit much in helping the handling of the skin, I wanted this skin thin with no weak spots.
I think the video you posted from Robbinsville shows an efficient use of bench flour.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg275403#msg275403


Also, they are able to fold and stack the finished skins....because of low hydration dough, or bench flour, or both?
How to get a thin dough, which is low hydration, very thin seems to be key.

The prior comments show that DeLorenzo piemen bang out, gravity stretch, and knuckle stretch the dough.
I felt like I couldn't get this ball to 14" without a toss, and that a knuckle stretch might make a tear, but that was just a feeling.

Charles

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1034 on: June 13, 2014, 04:12:37 PM »
I know this reverse engineer is no where near "Case Closed!", but what doughs have made a really representative crust so far?

Is it possibly Trenton Bill's 63% hydration effort here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg296709#msg296709

Or maybe Norma's attempt of Peter's Sloan Clone Dough (say that fast five times  :o) #3:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283970.html#msg283970

Or Peter's Dough Clone Formulation #6:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529
Charles

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1035 on: June 13, 2014, 06:08:46 PM »
Norma,

If I had to guess from looking at the Star Tavern photos, they perhaps use a smaller thickness factor value than used at De Lorenzo's. Also, since the workers at Star Tavern roll out the skins with rolling pins or something similar, the bottom crusts at Star Tavern look even thinner than the De Lorenzo bottom crusts. Since you have had pizzas at both places, was that your impression also?

Peter

Peter,

I did not notice the crust was thinner at Star Tavern.  What I noticed was the crust was crispy something like De Lorenzo's crust, had a little char and also was very easy to eat.  I have no idea really why De Lorenzo's bottom crust reminds me of a Star Tavern bottom crust if they aren't the same TF.   

I tried your dough formulation at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12769.msg123378#msg123378 without the Semolina when I attempted some Star Tavern bar style pizzas.  I see the TF is lower than what you posted for De Lorenzo's clone doughs.

Norma 

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1036 on: June 13, 2014, 06:15:02 PM »

Hi Norma, I think this dough was one of Peter's formulations from this thread, the one using Pillsbury AP flour.
Yes, the dough got a bit dry sitting out, but the cooked slice still was moist and had some flexibility.

It wouldn't be confused with a Trenton pie I'm sure, but I hope to keep improving and tweaking the process each time.
That way, even if I don't replicate a DL pie, I will have a pie that I like, is well made, and is reproducible.

The next time, I will have my 1/2" steel, and I'll pre-heat it to 550 if possible, using the IR gun.

No, I didn't roll the dough, and normally do not.....but I keep it handy just in case.  ;D
Thanks for the links, I'll try to learn what I can from the photos.

Charles,

Good to hear you want to keep improving and tweaking the process each time.  Did you ever really eat a De Lorenzo's pizza?  It is good if you are will be satisfied if you can make a pizza you like.  De Lorenzo's bake is a fairly long bake.  I have no idea how the 1/2” steel will work at 550 degrees F for your next attempt.  Maybe a member that knows about using the baking steel can comment. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1037 on: June 13, 2014, 06:23:22 PM »

Norma, thanks for advice on bench flour.
I may have used a bit much in helping the handling of the skin, I wanted this skin thin with no weak spots.
I think the video you posted from Robbinsville shows an efficient use of bench flour.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg275403#msg275403


Also, they are able to fold and stack the finished skins....because of low hydration dough, or bench flour, or both?
How to get a thin dough, which is low hydration, very thin seems to be key.

The prior comments show that DeLorenzo piemen bang out, gravity stretch, and knuckle stretch the dough.
I felt like I couldn't get this ball to 14" without a toss, and that a knuckle stretch might make a tear, but that was just a feeling.

Charles,

What do you really mean about the video I posted shows an efficient use of bench flour? To my eyes that did not seem like a lot of bench flour to me. 

I would guess that De Lorenzo's workers are able to fold and stack the finished skin because of the lower hydration and the use of bench flour.  Maybe Peter can comment more on what he thinks about that. 

When I tried some of Peter's formulations I felt I could bang the dough, do the gravity stretch and then knuckle stretch the dough a little.  Maybe you just need a little more practice.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1038 on: June 13, 2014, 06:26:30 PM »
I know this reverse engineer is no where near "Case Closed!", but what doughs have made a really representative crust so far?

Is it possibly Trenton Bill's 63% hydration effort here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg296709#msg296709

Or maybe Norma's attempt of Peter's Sloan Clone Dough (say that fast five times  :o) #3:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg283970.html#msg283970

Or Peter's Dough Clone Formulation #6:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg281529.html#msg281529

Charles,

I wish I really knew the answer to that question.  I have not tried enough of the formulations out myself in different ovens.  Stuart asked me the same question if I recall correctly.  If there were more members trying the different formulations in different ovens maybe we could have a better answer.

Norma

Offline woodmakesitgood

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Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
« Reply #1039 on: June 13, 2014, 06:38:00 PM »
Charles,

What do you really mean about the video I posted shows an efficient use of bench flour? To my eyes that did not seem like a lot of bench flour to me. 


Norma

Norma, I mean it looked like he used bench flour with good technique, even throwing some flour onto the skin when needed, not necessarily "a lot" of bench flour.

And yes, I definitely need more practice.

Charles

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