Greek pizza

[scott r]

Good info Scott.

Using the formula above recommends 12% oil and 6% butter. The crust was quite soft, do you think the pizza you had had that much oil/butter?

Im not sure of the exact dough recipe at the Lynwood specifically. My gut is telling me that 18% fat is too high because it would be too soft, but I have never tried to make a pizza with that much fat in it so im not sure. You want it to be a bit biscuity but its got to be able to stand up on its own and have some crisp to it. 

I have heard that the Lynwood uses butter in the dough which would be consistent with a good biscuit recipe.  I have always wondered if its possible that they are just using oil or shortening for the fat since you often find that in commercial operations where cost savings is typically paramount, and that the butter flavor people think they are getting from the dough is really just the butter flavored pan release spray.  I know for sure that many bar style pizzerias use milk in the dough and even some that use eggs but I don't know if that is being done at the Lynwood. 

I think a good place to start on nailing down the oil amount is to figure out oil/butter/shortening amounts in a typical biscuit recipe and then cut that in half... I don't think there is as much fat in the dough at bar pizzerias as there is in a biscuit, its just going in that direction, more than say a NY pizza dough recipe thats usually in the 0-2% range. 

The crust for bar pizza is not consistent throughout the various restaurants that make this style.   Some lean more typical NY but with a pan rise for their crust, some lean more to a biscuity crust, and some are more crackery than others.  One thing I don't taste in a lot of bar style pizzas is much if any sugar in the dough... but some do have a sweet sauce.

Its really the cheddar cheese and what the pan does to a thin crust that gives the majority of the flavor and textural profile to these pizzas.  I have many times used leftover dough from other recipes, NY, focaccia, etc and pressed them into a lightly oiled 10 inch pan topped with a good crushed tomato and a good white cheddar to find my friends/neighbors/relatives who have been eating bar pizza since birth tell me that it was the best bar pizza they have ever had.... so my point here is that the dough recipe can be altered more than you would think... its not the defining characteristic to the style in my opinion.

[HansB]

Thanks Scott. It's so hard trying to make something without having had it but my thought too was to reduce the fat. I'll reduce it by half next time. Covid permitting I hope to try some next month...

[Pod4477]

Im not sure of the exact dough recipe at the Lynwood specifically. My gut is telling me that 18% fat is too high because it would be too soft, but I have never tried to make a pizza with that much fat in it so im not sure. You want it to be a bit biscuity but its got to be able to stand up on its own and have some crisp to it. 

I have heard that the Lynwood uses butter in the dough which would be consistent with a good biscuit recipe.  I have always wondered if its possible that they are just using oil or shortening for the fat since you often find that in commercial operations where cost savings is typically paramount, and that the butter flavor people think they are getting from the dough is really just the butter flavored pan release spray.  I know for sure that many bar style pizzerias use milk in the dough and even some that use eggs but I don't know if that is being done at the Lynwood. 

I think a good place to start on nailing down the oil amount is to figure out oil/butter/shortening amounts in a typical biscuit recipe and then cut that in half... I don't think there is as much fat in the dough at bar pizzerias as there is in a biscuit, its just going in that direction, more than say a NY pizza dough recipe thats usually in the 0-2% range. 

The crust for bar pizza is not consistent throughout the various restaurants that make this style.   Some lean more typical NY but with a pan rise for their crust, some lean more to a biscuity crust, and some are more crackery than others.  One thing I don't taste in a lot of bar style pizzas is much if any sugar in the dough... but some do have a sweet sauce.

Its really the cheddar cheese and what the pan does to a thin crust that gives the majority of the flavor and textural profile to these pizzas.  I have many times used leftover dough from other recipes, NY, focaccia, etc and pressed them into a lightly oiled 10 inch pan topped with a good crushed tomato and a good white cheddar to find my friends/neighbors/relatives who have been eating bar pizza since birth tell me that it was the best bar pizza they have ever had.... so my point here is that the dough recipe can be altered more than you would think... its not the defining characteristic to the style in my opinion.

Very good points, and it very well may be that no butter is used in the dough.  Using over 20% corn oil in my UNO dough is crazy, and usually I have trouble absorbing the oil into the dough.  Whatever does get absorbed though is used in the dough and the rest is left in the proofing container.  It makes for an amazing dough that is minimally kneaded and crispy.  Tastes just like UNO.  Normally though I would use much less oil.  Lynwood really does just remind me of a lard pie crust or UNO dough, so maybe oil alone is the fat that is used.  When you mentioned using other doughs, it really does bring back memories of using NY doughs for pan pizza, and also just using the UNO dough.  The cheddar really does make the biggest difference, along with whatever oil spray they use on the pan.

Thanks Scott. It's so hard trying to make something without having had it but my thought too was to reduce the fat. I'll reduce it by half next time. Covid permitting I hope to try some next month...

I hope your able to get down here!

[CDNpielover]

Hello Greek pizza experts,

We have a style of pizza in Canada called "Greek style", which is also made in a pan similar to the Greek pies in this thread.  I believe the dough is also proofed in the pan, but I am not certain about that.  Many years ago, I was interested in recreating this Canadian style Greek pie, and assumed that it was the same as the Greek pie discussed in this thread.  You can read about this in some of my earlier posts starting at Reply #339 in this thread (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg172533#msg172533).

Recently I came across this video of a Canadian Greek style pie being made in Surrey, BC:



Does this look like the Greek style of pizza that most of you are talking about in this thread?

Cheers 

[hammettjr]

Recently I came across this video of a Canadian Greek style pie being made in Surrey, BC:


Does this look like the Greek style of pizza that most of you are talking about in this thread?

Cheers 

It kindof looks like a mix of the Greek style I grew up with and the Greek-bar style. It has the thickness of the traditional greek, but the small size and crunch of bar. What stood out the most to me in the video is the darkness of the sauce, which reminds me of the paste-based sauce of greek.

Do they use mozzarella, or also cheddar? One theory on the use of cheddar in New England Greek is the proximity to Vermont. I'll admit I had to look up where Surrey is...all the way on the west coast.

[CDNpielover]

It kindof looks like a mix of the Greek style I grew up with and the Greek-bar style. It has the thickness of the traditional greek, but the small size and crunch of bar. What stood out the most to me in the video is the darkness of the sauce, which reminds me of the paste-based sauce of greek.

Do they use mozzarella, or also cheddar? One theory on the use of cheddar in New England Greek is the proximity to Vermont. I'll admit I had to look up where Surrey is...all the way on the west coast.

The website for my neighborhood Greek-style pizza joint says they use "freshly grated mozzarella cheese" (https://doubleddpizza.brygid.online/zgrid/proc/site/sitemnup.jsp?mnuid_it=351346).  I'm not sure if this is common to all Greek style pizza in Canada, or just my local joint.  I live in Vancouver, but I know this style also exists across Alberta.  I've never had Greek-style pizza east of Alberta, but I'm sure it exists out east as well.  This style is also made in some of our large, national chains such as Pizza 73 and Boston Pizza (which started in Edmonton, not Botson MA).

This style does seem quite similar to what I've been seeing in this thread, and I'm curious about whether they share a common origin.

[hammettjr]

This style does seem quite similar to what I've been seeing in this thread, and I'm curious about whether they share a common origin.

It's a good question of what is the origin of Greek pizza? I never really thought about why Greek immigrants seemed to make a similar style of pizzas in the US (and Canada!). Is it something brought from Greece, or they used similar distributors? And why in New England are many called "House of Pizza"?

[fewd]

It's a good question of what is the origin of Greek pizza? I never really thought about why Greek immigrants seemed to make a similar style of pizzas in the US (and Canada!). Is it something brought from Greece, or they used similar distributors? And why in New England are many called "House of Pizza"?

Ask and you shall receive

"You Asked, We Answered: Why Are There SO Many "Houses of Pizza" In New Hampshire?"
https://www.nhpr.org/post/you-asked-we-answered-why-are-there-so-many-houses-pizza-new-hampshire#stream/0

The site is New Hampshire specific but 'House of Pizza's' are all over New England and some parts of NY.

[scott r]

Do they use mozzarella, or also cheddar? One theory on the use of cheddar in New England Greek is the proximity to Vermont.

I think it may have been me (maybe even years ago in this thread) that speculated about the Vermont thing, but you know... the more I have been researching I think it is cost, or maybe the two are interrelated.   Im not sure if its the same everywhere, but here around Boston cheddar is enough cheaper than mozzarella at our wholesalers that it would make a meaningful difference in your yearly earnings if you used it instead of mozzarella.   It goes along with the other cost saving measures I often see at the greek style pizzerias near me like thick paste products being thinned with water for the sauce, and low quality frozen meat toppings.  Its very different here than in NY where you see at least some shops using high end ingredients.  I hope im not offending anyone, and this is just an observation, but I can't think of one greek style place not using the cheapest everything rather than going for grande etc.  That doesnt mean the pizza isn't great, but its a different mentality than I see at some of the shops in NY.

[hammettjr]

I think it may have been me (maybe even years ago in this thread) that speculated about the Vermont thing, but you know... the more I have been researching I think it is cost, or maybe the two are interrelated.   Im not sure if its the same everywhere, but here around Boston cheddar is enough cheaper than mozzarella at our wholesalers that it would make a meaningful difference in your yearly earnings if you used it instead of mozzarella.   It goes along with the other cost saving measures I often see at the greek style pizzerias near me like thick paste products being thinned with water for the sauce, and low quality frozen meat toppings.  Its very different here than in NY where you see at least some shops using high end ingredients.  I hope im not offending anyone, and this is just an observation, but I can't think of one greek style place not using the cheapest everything rather than going for grande etc.  That doesnt mean the pizza isn't great, but its a different mentality than I see at some of the shops in NY.

Very interesting! (I probably was paraphrasing something I read in one of your posts.)

For me, cheddar adds a great flavor. Amazing that it may have been almost an accident as they were just trying to save money.

Certainly no offense taken from me. I grew up not knowing what greek style was, and just thinking that it was "standard mediocre pizza thats found outside of NY". It wasn't until much more recently that I've come to appreciate it, and realized how good it can be.

[scott r]

I agree, but I must admit that it took some time to grow on me!   I think the whole reason I got really into making pizza was that I had fallen in love with pizza in NY, only to move to Boston where I didnt know what was causing this, but I just knew something wasn't right!

Now bar pizza is one of my favorite styles/flavors, but it took me many years for me to come to crave it.

[caymus]

but here around Boston cheddar is enough cheaper than mozzarella at our wholesalers that it would make a meaningful difference in your yearly earnings

I assume they use a basic mild cheddar and not a multi year aged extra sharp version.

Thanks

[scott r]

It is usually mild cheddar, but there are some places like the Town Spa in Stoughton MA that use a fairly sharp cheddar.  I actually think they are blending two cheddars. That also happens to be my favorite bar pizza for the sauce/cheese.

[fewd]

I assume they use a basic mild cheddar and not a multi year aged extra sharp version.

Thanks

Stephan, the owner of Lynwood Cafe has been interviewed and sticks by the claim that they only use "high fat" white cheddar which lends to the buttery biscuit taste and their blend consists of nothing but '3 types of cheddar'.  Seems kind of odd or am I missing something here?  What would be the 3rd cheddar assuming #1 mild and #2 sharp/aged?  I can't find the video online anymore...but I think it was local coverage dating a few years back and not during the recent bar pizza local media craze.

I know this contradicts reviews that I've seen people mention tasting everything from provolone to mozz to asiago.

Here a cook talks about blending the cheese...which would probably imply that they don't buy a cheddar blend but blend it themselves
https://www.wickedlocal.com/article/20160128/NEWS/160126044

I know we are not talking exclusively about Lynwood but this is the first video that I've really seen them let anyone into their kitchen
https://www.bostonglobe.com/video/2020/10/06/lifestyle/food-dining/coming-home-at-the-lynwood-cafe/

Things I notice are
- they don't use a solid like crisco as some suspected (squirt bottle of oil)
- looks like your typical bar pie finger tip press into the pan

Nothing really too special.

I admit I am starting to feel a little silly obsessing over these small details.  But it's a pandemic and I'm bored.

[Kwilz42]

I'm new to this forum and was very excited that someone directed me to this thread. I grew up in Connecticut eating greek style pizzas which seem a little different from the bar styles I saw in the beginning of the thread. 

I was lucky enough a few years ago to get a pan from the place I grew up down the street from, Elm Hill Pizza.  I've been trying to replicate their pizza since there's nothing like it that I've found where I live now in Maryland.  I feel like I'm getting close.  Here's what I made last night. I'm newer to using baker's percentages but used pizzacreator.net calculator for:

55% hydration
2% yeast
2% salt
2% sugar
3% oil

I used a 600g doughball for the 14 inch pan and a 350g ball for my cast iron pan (which I think was too much and came out a little too thick). 

I proof the yeast with the water and sugar for about 5 minutes. I then make a poolish/sponge that i let rest for about 30 minutes before mixing in the rest of the flour and salt. I use a dough hook on medium speed in the stand mixer for about 5 minutes then divided into the respective balls for each pan and let each rise in an owled bowl for 45 minutes to an hour.  I prepare the pan with a mix of melted shortening and olive oil (about 1 T of each for the 14" pan; half of that for the cast iron).  I put the pans in the garage to let the shortening mix cool and firm up a bit again and then stretch each ball into the pan pressing in at the sides to create a 'bulge' for the crust. Cover and rise in the pan on the counter for about 20 minutes before topping with sauce and letting rise again for about another hour.  That's shorter than what I've seen in some of the other posts and what I would do for other pizza types but it has been coming out pretty good. 

I'm still working on the sauce but I use canned plum tomatoes, olive oil, butter, crushed garlic salt, sugar, basil and a lot of oregano.  I blend it very smooth with an immersion blender after simmering.

I use a 3:1 mix of mozzarella and white cheddar.

I put a pizza stone on the middle rack of the oven but start cooking the pizzas on the bottom rack below the stone at 550 degrees.  Before the cheese starts to brown too much, I check to see how the crust is browning on the bottom.  Sometimes it hasn't browned enough in the pan. When that happens, I'll cook it until the cheese has browned enough and then take the pizza out of the pan and bake directly on the stone for about a minute.  I've seen then do something like this at the places back home. It usually does the trick for me.

Can't wait to keep reading more of this thread and continue tweaking.  Thanks to everyone for all the great info!

[scott r]

Looking good Kevin!   nice score on the pan

[hammettjr]

Welcome aboard! Very excited to see pies just like the ones I grew up with in CT!! 

Here's a link to a pizzeria pie that I've been trying to replicate (from somewhere in the middle of this thread):
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg534855#msg534855

And below are 2 pics from Elm Hill that are real beauties. Thanks for sharing. I'd like to try their pizza some time if I get the opportunity.

[Kwilz42]

Thanks for sharing the link to your recipe. Your pies look great!  Never thought of adding egg to the dough; will have to experiment with that.

The guy in that picture is one of the sons that is now running Elm Hill and the one who gave me the pan.  Grabbed it right off the top of the oven and told me I could have it. It was still warm

If you get up to Elm Hill, grab a small extra cheese along with whatever pizza you'd normall order.  I dont know what it is about it, but a small extra cheese from them is the perfect slice in my opinion.  I always order one 'for the kids'