Definitive Closest Giordano's Clone as of 6/12/13?

[Garvey]

With stuffed, there may be a couple long threads on these boards, but I'm not sure there is another weight-based recipe or formula anywhere outside of this thread. And there are very few pictures.

lol.

Weights and pix from Loo
Weights and pic from Jdurg
Weights and pix from Garvey
Weights and pix from haybot
Weights and pix from Elevenbravo and Peter
Weights and pix from Wazatron
Weights and pix from Buzz, Peter, and DKM

And I'll just stop there. 

[Garvey]

Let me reiterate, I dig your work and think you're adding much to the existing knowledge base.  Just pointing out that pretending you're Leif Erikson of Giordano's clones is disingenuous.  It's really easy to search the forum and look at the hundreds of pictures and multiple formulations that came prior.

And the most helpful thing I can say is to get on the spinach with this thing. 

[CDNpielover]

lol.

Weights and pix from Loo
Weights and pic from Jdurg
Weights and pix from Garvey
Weights and pix from haybot
Weights and pix from Elevenbravo and Peter
Weights and pix from Wazatron
Weights and pix from Buzz, Peter, and DKM

And I'll just stop there.

These links aren't working for me

[Aimless Ryan]

Just pointing out that pretending you're Leif Erikson of Giordano's clones is disingenuous.  It's really easy to search the forum and look at the hundreds of pictures and multiple formulations that came prior.

I have no idea why it might bother anyone that I used the phrase "following my lead." That's exactly what MontsterTX and MightyMouth did. They used a formula that I shared; a formula I came up with completely on my own (although I was influenced by something Peter said about the fat percentage in another Giordano's thread, as well as Peter's transcription of Giordano's documents). The formulas I've shared in this thread are nothing like any of the formulas or recipes I've seen in any other Giordano's thread. What else could I have said that may have been any more appropriate than "following my lead"?

[Garvey]

These links aren't working for me

@CDNpielover: Links fixed.  Sorry--wacky board code inserted extra "http".

[Garvey]

Ryan:

You said that no other thread contained weights or pictures.  You were wrong.  No biggie.  So you didn't bother to search the forum or do any real homework here.  That's cool.  It happens to a lot of people.  Is your formulation different?  Sure.  Have other people posted detailed formulations, procedures, and hundreds of picture before you, dating back six and seven years?  Yeah, that, too. 


Garvey

there's not much substantial information about this style of pizza on the internet or anywhere else

I'm not sure there is another weight-based recipe or formula anywhere outside of this thread

And there are very few pictures

[BTB]

You said that no other thread contained weights or pictures.  You were wrong.  No biggie.  So you didn't bother to search the forum or do any real homework here.  That's cool.  It happens to a lot of people.  Is your formulation different?  Sure.  Have other people posted detailed formulations, procedures, and hundreds of picture before you, dating back six and seven years?  Yeah, that, too. 

That's why Ryan goes by the "Aimless" moniker !  Just joking.     

[Aimless Ryan]

lol.

Weights and pix from Loo
Weights and pic from Jdurg
Weights and pix from Garvey
Weights and pix from haybot
Weights and pix from Elevenbravo and Peter
Weights and pix from Wazatron
Weights and pix from Buzz, Peter, and DKM

And I'll just stop there.

My current best-yet Giordano's style dough formula (for at least a three-day cold ferment) is:

100% Flour (probably Power flour)
47% Water
1% ADY
0.9% Salt
6% Shortening
0.00% Sugar

Following are selected specific percentages of some of the ingredients of the formulas you linked to. The things I list here represent components of these formulas that make them considerably different than my formula. Most of them have a very high fat percentage, which, as I read through the other Giordano's threads, was the one characteristic that would instantly tell me to move on to the next reply. That's because when I started "researching" Giordano's pizza, as I've already said earlier in this thread, I could tell just by looking at pictures of Giordano's dough and Giordano's crust that the fat percentage of their dough was significantly lower than deep dish dough. Yet when I looked through the Giordano's threads, all I saw was dough formulas (or, more commonly, volumetric recipes) that contained fat percentages above 16%, which is exactly what I see when I follow your links.

loowaters:
50% water
18% corn oil

The hydration figure here is reasonably close to my hydration figure, but this formula contains three times more fat than my formula, which totally negates the similar hydration figure. This dough does not resemble my dough at all.

Jdurg:
60.8% water
20.5% corn oil
0.4% sugar

Did not include bakers' percents, which says to me every time, "Next!"
Additionally, this formula does not resemble my formula in any way.

Garvey:
50% water
17% corn oil

Like loowaters, your hydration figure resembles mine, but the oil figure makes it an entirely different dough.

haybot:
40% water
2% salt
2% sugar

Did not specify what kind of yeast (1.25%).
Did not include bakers' percents.

I admit you kinda got me with this one. Kinda. This formula is in the same ballpark as mine, with 40% water (reasonably similar to mine) and 6% fat (identical to mine). Apparently I didn't pay much attention to this one when I read these threads because it does not list bakers' percents. I rarely pay attention to any recipe that does not list bakers' percents because bakers' percents are the most important, most helpful part of a recipe. Generally when someone does not list bakers' percents, it's a good sign that extensive analysis of their post(s) will end up being a waste of time.
I do remember haybot's pictures, though, and I remember thinking they were probably by far the best-looking Giordano's style pictures I saw anywhere, either here or elsewhere on the internet. That is, haybot's pictures looked more like Giordano's to me than any other pictures I saw.

Peter's translation of ElevenBravo:
41.2% water
1.57% ADY
2% salt
16.7% corn oil

I watched ElevenBravo's videos. I remember them vaguely, but I can't remember much or anything about them. My guess, considering the 16.7% corn oil, is that I moved on pretty quickly because he wasn't making the same kind of pizza I intended to make.

I definitely paid plenty of attention to Peter's replies, though, simply because they were replies from Peter. One thing I definitely took from Peter's post is that the baked weight of a 10" Giordano's cheese pizza should be 42 oz. Although I came up with essentially the same target pizza weight before I ever saw Peter's post, I definitely used Peter's information as a hint that I was headed in the right direction.

Wazatron:
41% water
1.57% ADY
2% salt
16.7% corn oil

This formula is almost identical to the previous formula. My formula does not resemble either of them. Again, whenever I saw that much fat in someone's formula, I quickly moved on to the next reply. I'm not making the same pizza these guys are making, which is why I have not cited them as having influenced either my formula or my workflow. If I said they did influence my work, I'd be lying. Are you saying you want me to lie?

Wazatron's pics look pretty good, but the dough does not resemble the dough in Giordano's videos. Both the dough and the crust appear to contain considerably more fat than Giordano's dough or crust, so I moved on pretty quickly after seeing it. It was simply not what I was looking for.

Your last link still doesn't work. However, I'm familiar enough with Buzz's work to know: 1) He refuses to use either bakers' percents or weight measurements; 2) Volumetric flour measurements cannot be translated to weight measurements with any accuracy; 3) Buzz kept insisting that Giordano's pizza does not contain a top crust. He said this over and over, and he kept calling it deep dish; and 4) Even with with a recipe expressed in volumetric measurements, I could tell the oil percentage in Buzz'a dough was way up there; possibly well over 20%.

You have linked to one example of a Giordano's clone attempt that used dough bearing any resemblance to my dough. And even that one is only sorta close, as opposed to actually close. You're trying to say there were many others who did a similar style of pizza before me and documented it thoroughly, but your own evidence fails to support that claim in any way. All you've shown is that at least a handful of people have attempted to make pizza that resembled Giordano's pizza. Theirs may have been more on the mark than mine, or they might have been more off the mark than mine, but there is no doubt that none of those pizzas is remotely similar to my pizzas. Except maybe haybot's.

I'm not looking for a fight or a flame; that's just the simple truth.

[tinroofrusted]

Aimless Ryan and Garvey are both awesome!  I love reading both of your posts and think you both have contributed so much to this forum.  You both deserve a great deal of credit for your contributions. 

[Aimless Ryan]

Wow. Thanks. Maybe we can meet at Giordano's sometime, which is a trek I'm getting the urge to make very soon. (I'm thinking you live way south nowadays, though, right, Garvey?)

[Garvey]

Ryan, with all due respect, stop moving the goalposts.  I've never seen anyone so stubborn and full of hubris who can't admit the tiniest flaw.

You're trying to say there were many others who did a similar style of pizza before me and documented it thoroughly, but your own evidence fails to support that claim in any way

You're just plain wrong.  I'm not angry in any way: I am now genuinely curious to see if you can possibly admit you're wrong.  It's kind of fascinating to watch.  I linked over a half-dozen self-described Giordano's clones by people who have eaten it before.  You said:

there has never been much effort, either here or elsewhere on the internet, to really figure out this style of pizza

And that is simply false.

And then you said:

I'm not sure there is another weight-based recipe or formula anywhere outside of this thread. And there are very few pictures.

Which again was proven false.

And now you move the goalposts once more, now claiming that this "style" is only as you personally define it.  Because none of these previous formulations are not identical to yours, they are (according to you) a different style of pizza.

To be honest, your formulation probably is the best among all the attempts of this style.  But I stand by everything I said: you are not the first to go here.  Maybe the best to go here, so congrats.  But is it that hard to acknowledge you come alongside a long line of practitioners?


[P.S. I fixed the link to Buzz's formulation with Peter's math on it.]

[Aimless Ryan]

Disclaimer: These are just the words of a passionate pizzamaker here. No insults intended to anyone, so please don't interpret anything I say as being intentionally insulting to anyone. If I have said anything that could be considered insulting, it's simply because I'm almost-Asperger guy, and I didn't know any better.

Funny that you say I'm stubborn, because I've always felt like Chicago style regulars are very stubborn and resistant to change. For example, it seems to have become common knowledge that there is semolina in Malnati's dough, even though there isn't. Lou-to-go packaging clearly lists flour, water, corn oil, olive oil, and yeast (in that order) as the ingredients in Malnati's dough, at least for that particular product. It doesn't list semolina because it doesn't contain semolina. Yet people continue trying to change reality to suit their perceptions of what reality should be. That's stubborn.

I admit flaws and mistakes all the time. For example, I used 2% sugar when I almost certainly should have used none. I also allowed at least a couple of my doughs to overferment. I screwed up and baked one pizza at 500 for the first 12 or 13 minutes. At one point some of the math in my spreadsheet was wrong. Those are just the things I can think of without looking.

A couple handfuls of people made pizzas that had relatively the same shape as my attempted Giordano's clones. ONE of those people used a formula that was kinda similar to the formula I use, yet that formula was still considerably different than my formula. Go to the the NY style boards and try to convince Scott that a dough with 12-14% oil is in any way similar to any of the accepted NY style doughs that contain 0-2% oil. He probably wouldn't even bother responding, because those two doughs are simply not the same thing--not the same style--just as my dough is not the same style as any of those other doughs (except maybe one of them).

You don't read any of the other boards, do you? Compared to just about every other style of pizza, there has been almost no effort by members to really figure out stuffed pizza. And of the people who have tried, I can't immediately think of anyone other than me who has tried it (and documented it) more than a few times. And I've only tried eight times myself, I think. That's nothing. That's why I've been careful not to act like I know too much about this style when people ask me questions about how I've done it. I know how I've done things, but I have no idea if that's "the right way." Besides, I've made formula changes and/or flour changes with every stuffed pizza I've made. And whenever I make the next one, I'm sure I'll make even more changes.

You're telling me I was wrong when I said, "I'm not sure there is another weight-based recipe or formula anywhere outside of this thread." Are you saying I actually was sure there were more weight-based recipes to be found, but for some reason I thought I wasn't sure? Or are you saying I knew there were more weight-based recipes but I chose to lie by saying I wasn't sure? Cuz I'm pretty sure I really wasn't sure. As of this moment, we both know there are some weight-based recipes and formulas outside of this thread, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't sure there actually were some when I said that.

I didn't claim any rights to the definition of stuffed pizza, first of all because I've never had stuffed pizza from Giordano's or any other stuffed pizza merchant, which you already knew because it's one of the first things I said when I started contributing to this thread. The only definitions I've tried to create, if that's how you want to describe it, are "like mine" and "not like mine." None of the others are like mine, except perhaps that one. They're not even close to being the same thing. Maybe they're better than mine, or maybe they're not as good as mine, but one thing is certain: They are not like mine.

To be honest, your formulation probably is the best among all the attempts of this style.  But I stand by everything I said: you are not the first to go here.  Maybe the best to go here, so congrats.  But is it that hard to acknowledge you come alongside a long line of practitioners?

Thank you. I hope you truly do think mine is the best, but I'm also not that worried about it. I just want to make it better, and I want to try the real thing ASAP. And if someone else makes it better before me, that's cool too. All I know right now is that the style of pizza I've made is really awesome. It's probably my favorite of all the different styles I consider myself proficient with, which includes laminated cracker (Tommy's, Shakey's), deep dish, and NY style (even though I hesitate to say I am truly proficient with stuffed pizza). I don't know what a real Giordano's pizza tastes like, but I do know that the stuffed pizzas I've made are something special. That's my own opinion, which is worth whatever you consider it to be worth, but it's also how my guests seem to have felt about these pizzas.

[CDNpielover]

I've got to agree with Garvey on this one.  Ryan's formulation is probably "best" (as Garvery put it) because it had the benefit of everything that came before it.  Maybe you don't mean to come across this way Ryan, but I see what Garvey means here.   

[CDNpielover]

Disclaimer: These are just the words of a passionate pizzamaker here. No insults intended to anyone, so please don't interpret anything I say as being intentionally insulting to anyone. If I have said anything that could be considered insulting, it's simply because I'm almost-Asperger guy, and I didn't know any better.

Funny that you say I'm stubborn, because I've always felt like Chicago style regulars are very stubborn and resistant to change. For example, it seems to have become common knowledge that there is semolina in Malnati's dough, even though there isn't. Lou-to-go packaging clearly lists flour, water, corn oil, olive oil, and yeast (in that order) as the ingredients in Malnati's dough, at least for that particular product. It doesn't list semolina because it doesn't contain semolina. Yet people continue trying to change reality to suit their perceptions of what reality should be. That's stubborn.

I admit flaws and mistakes all the time. For example, I used 2% sugar when I almost certainly should have used none. I also allowed at least a couple of my doughs to overferment. I screwed up and baked one pizza at 500 for the first 12 or 13 minutes. At one point some of the math in my spreadsheet was wrong. Those are just the things I can think of without looking.

A couple handfuls of people made pizzas that had relatively the same shape as my attempted Giordano's clones. ONE of those people used a formula that was kinda similar to the formula I use, yet that formula was still considerably different than my formula. Go to the the NY style boards and try to convince Scott that a dough with 12-14% oil is in any way similar to any of the accepted NY style doughs that contain 0-2% oil. He probably wouldn't even bother responding, because those two doughs are simply not the same thing--not the same style--just as my dough is not the same style as any of those other doughs (except maybe one of them).

You don't read any of the other boards, do you? Compared to just about every other style of pizza, there has been almost no effort by members to really figure out stuffed pizza. And of the people who have tried, I can't immediately think of anyone other than me who has tried it (and documented it) more than a few times. And I've only tried eight times myself, I think. That's nothing. That's why I've been careful not to act like I know too much about this style when people ask me questions about how I've done it. I know how I've done things, but I have no idea if that's "the right way." Besides, I've made formula changes and/or flour changes with every stuffed pizza I've made. And whenever I make the next one, I'm sure I'll make even more changes.

You're telling me I was wrong when I said, "I'm not sure there is another weight-based recipe or formula anywhere outside of this thread." Are you saying I actually was sure there were more weight-based recipes to be found, but for some reason I thought I wasn't sure? Or are you saying I knew there were more weight-based recipes but I chose to lie by saying I wasn't sure? Cuz I'm pretty sure I really wasn't sure. As of this moment, we both know there are some weight-based recipes and formulas outside of this thread, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't sure there actually were some when I said that.

I didn't claim any rights to the definition of stuffed pizza, first of all because I've never had stuffed pizza from Giordano's or any other stuffed pizza merchant, which you already knew because it's one of the first things I said when I started contributing to this thread. The only definitions I've tried to create, if that's how you want to describe it, are "like mine" and "not like mine." None of the others are like mine, except perhaps that one. They're not even close to being the same thing. Maybe they're better than mine, or maybe they're not as good as mine, but one thing is certain: They are not like mine.

Thank you. I hope you truly do think mine is the best, but I'm also not that worried about it. I just want to make it better, and I want to try the real thing ASAP. And if someone else makes it better before me, that's cool too. All I know right now is that the style of pizza I've made is really awesome. It's probably my favorite of all the different styles I consider myself proficient with, which includes laminated cracker (Tommy's, Shakey's), deep dish, and NY style (even though I hesitate to say I am truly proficient with stuffed pizza). I don't know what a real Giordano's pizza tastes like, but I do know that the stuffed pizzas I've made are something special. That's my own opinion, which is worth whatever you consider it to be worth, but it's also how my guests seem to have felt about these pizzas.

jesus christ man, give it up and relax already.  didn't you get banned once for this kind of behavior.  just sayin' 

[Aimless Ryan]

Sorry. I didn't mean to be nasty or offensive or anything like that.

[mrmojo1]

Aimless!  Garvey!  et al. you guys have so much passion about pizza!  it is so awesome!  sometimes passions clash! but I truly am thankful for all the contributions and intellectual discussions all of you provide! and for the arguments! we have such great  discussions and such desire to get to the solutions!  so im sure there's no hard feelings!  just intersecting passions!! keep having fun and keep up the passion! 

Aimless ive ordered a cheese only I think frozen shipped from giordanos...its prob a 50buck pizza with the shipping!  but it was good and it definitely brought back memories of giordanos as a teen in Chicago!  its cheaper than a plane ticket or hotel??  gas??  your pizzas sure look awesome my friend!!!! 

[Aimless Ryan]

Aimless!  Garvey!  et al. you guys have so much passion about pizza!  it is so awesome!  sometimes passions clash! but I truly am thankful for all the contributions and intellectual discussions all of you provide! and for the arguments! we have such great  discussions and such desire to get to the solutions!  so im sure there's no hard feelings!

your pizzas sure look awesome my friend!!!!

Thank you. They were. Still, I'm sure there is a ton of room for improvement.

I have no hard feelings, and it seems pretty clear that Garvey doesn't, either.

[Garvey]

Yeah, everything's cool.  I do love a drunk Mojo Man, though. 

[mrmojo1]

Ha!  too funny! my wife says I get really sweet after a few Beers!

[Aimless Ryan]

I scanned through this thread last night, looking at all the pictures and reading a lot of the posts. Having not made pizza in at least a couple months, I think I was able to look at everything with a fresh perspective, which allowed me to see things I couldn't necessarily see when I was making all these pizzas. So here are some of my thoughts from last night.

• Although I thought my first five or so stuffed pizzas were very good (and also looked good, mostly), I now feel like page 8 is where everything changed (and where a new beginning began); where the appearance of my pizzas jumped a few notches over all the pizzas I made prior to this. This is when I gave Mondako flour a try, followed by Power flour. I'm inclined to say the Mondako pizza was the better-looking of these two pizzas, but I still think the Power flour pizza tasted better. I don't think either of these flours is the ideal flour for this kind of pizza, but they are both very good (and much better than AP flour).
• I now feel like my dough's hydration percentage has been a little too low. After spending a lot of time looking at the Giordano's pics that both Nate and I posted, I just feel like there is evidence that suggests Giordano's dough is a little softer than the dough I've considered "best yet" up to this point. (I guess my best-yet formula would be whatever I used for the Mondako and/or Power flour pizzas.) I feel pretty sure my hydration figure is within a couple percentage points of being right, though.
• I've probably rolled my dough a little too thin with most or all of the pizzas I've made.
• I don't really like the looks of any of the pizzas I made using AP flour, which I think are all pictured on page 4. This dissatisfaction is partly a result of how I made the pizzas, but it's also partly a result of using AP flour.

I might do another 180 as soon as I post this reply.