Trying to have a similar taste for a Papa John's Garlic Sauce, but not cloned

[norma427]

I only did this experiment to see if I could get a similar taste and mouth-feel like Papa John's Garlic Sauce.  This is not a clone of PJ Garlic sauce, but an experiment. 

I thought I would do a little experiment with some I can believe it's not Butter Original that I had at home.  I used ¼ cup of I can't believe it's not Butter, ¼ teaspoon of the Shurfine garlic powder and 3 tads of Butter Buds sprinkles.  I microwaved until the mixture melted.  It tastes similar to PJ Garlic sauce.  It is now in the fridge to see what happens.  There is a nice mouth-feel when using these ingredients, but maybe there is a better margarine product to do this test with, because the product that I tried does have trans fats.

If anyone in interested in where Pete-zza's Papa John's clone thread it starts at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html  and there might be trying to clone the PJ Garlic sauce.  That starts around Peter's Reply at 437 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg259592.html#msg259592

Another thread about the Papa John's cheesesticks started by Nate (pythonic). http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.0.html 

Norma

[norma427]

Photos

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

Do you think that Whirl (with or without Garlic) might work somehow for me to make a garlic sauce at market if I decide to offer PJ cheesesticks for market?  I know you mentioned Whirl to me before at the Mellow Mushroom thread at Reply 894 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg163563.html#msg163563  I did get a sample of Whirl that I tried out on the MM thread at Reply 922 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg165185.html#msg165185  At least the Whirl product does not have to be refrigerated and I would not have to worry if someone wanted some to purchase some garlic sauce to take home.

http://www.todayswhirl.com/WhirlSpecSheet.pdf 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The Whirl product did cross my mind but the only ingredient that I recalled was the sunflower oil. I could not quickly find an ingredients list for that product. Did you keep anything that might have listed the ingredients?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The Whirl product did cross my mind but the only ingredient that I recalled was the sunflower oil. I could not quickly find an ingredients list for that product. Did you keep anything that might have listed the ingredients?

Peter

Peter,

I don't think I have the ingredient list anymore, but Whirl ZT in this pdf says if has zero grams trans fat per serving.  http://www.stratasfoods.com/stratas_foods/media/productSectionImages/docs/ZTSolBrochure.pdf  and the next links says natural garlic flavor option, trans free and sodium free option, fluid and pourable at room temperature and replacement for butter and margarine. http://www.stratasfoods.com/Products/Food-Ingredients/Butter-Flavored-Oils.aspx  I think I still have part of the small sample of Whirl at market. 

I am not sure what different Whirl products have in them, but the Whirl ZT-Butter alternative has high ofeic sunflower oil, soy lecithin at this link, but I don't understand the 18% saturated Fat.  http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/FatsAndOils/FacetheFatsRestaurantResources/Liquid-Butter-Alternatives-For-Restaurants_UCM_304522_Article.jsp

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

If you have any of the Whirl product left, you might supplement it with garlic powder or anything else that you think might make it better for breadsticks and give it a try.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If you have any of the Whirl product left, you might supplement it with garlic powder or anything else that you think might make it better for breadsticks and give it a try.

Peter

Peter,

I have to look at market today to see if I kept what was left of the small sample container of Whirl.  I think I kept it, but am not sure.  If I have any leftover piece of dough from mixing batches today I can try the Whirl.  I have to taste the Whirl first to recall what it tasted like.  I know Steve said it tasted like artificial butter, but it didn't taste that way to me.  For my tastes I thought it was pretty good.  If I find it I will add garlic and maybe give it try tomorrow.  I did fill out the form and asked for another sample of Whirl.

Norma   

[norma427]

Peter,

I took a photo of the Ingredient list of the Whirl sample.  The Whirl still tastes good to me.  What I wondered is if I mixed a PJ dough tonight using the formulation you posted at Reply 6 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25603.msg258178.html#msg258178 for Nate, approximately how much yeast do you think I would need to add for the dough ball to be ready for late afternoon tomorrow?  I can use ADY or IDY.  I will be using the Power Flour again as the flour.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The Whirl product looks pretty good as a starting point although I did not see the sunflower oil. I think it is worth a shot.

Yes, you should be able to use the dough formulation that I came up with for pythonic (Nate). Based on the PJ dough clone formulation I posted at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60076.html#msg60076 , I would try 0.45% IDY for the cold fermentation time period you specified. This time, you might use considerably less cheese than you used to make your last PJ Cheesesiticks clone if your objective is to make a clone. But, whatever you do, you might want to weigh both the unbaked pizza and the baked pizza. That might give us at least a rough idea as to the extent of the weight losses sustained by the PJ Cheesesticks during baking.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The Whirl product looks pretty good as a starting point although I did not see the sunflower oil. I think it is worth a shot.

Yes, you should be able to use the dough formulation that I came up with for pythonic (Nate). Based on the PJ dough clone formulation I posted at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60076.html#msg60076 , I would try 0.45% IDY for the cold fermentation time period you specified. This time, you might use considerably less cheese than you used to make your last PJ Cheesesiticks clone if your objective is to make a clone. But, whatever you do, you might want to weigh both the unbaked pizza and the baked pizza. That might give us at least a rough idea as to the extent of the weight losses sustained by the PJ Cheesesticks during baking.

Peter

Peter,

I think that sample of Whirl is the only one they give samples of.  I think there is a Whirl product made with sunflower oil.

Thanks for telling me to try 0.45% IDY for the cold fermentation.  How much less cheese do you want me to add tomorrow?  I would like to make the cheesesticks a PJ clone.  I am going to try to make another attempt on a PJ garlic sauce tonight with the Parkay Squeeze and see which garlic sauce Steve likes better.  I will try to remember to weight the unbaked cheesesticks and the baked cheesesticks to see how much weight loss there is in my deck oven.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

If you look at the Nutrition Facts for the PJ Cheesesticks, at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/2/subMenu.html, you will see that a single serving size is 4 Cheesesticks, and that there are four servings in the container, or a total of 14 sticks. That means that the total baked weight of the 14 sticks is (3.5 x 136)/28.35 = 16.79 ounces. Of course, the unbaked pizza weighs more than that but we don't yet know what the losses are during baking. But if we assume that the 14.5 ounce dough weight is correct (it may be off by a fraction of an ounce), that doesn't leave us a lot of room for the cheese and garlic sauce. So, until we can get an idea as those losses, I think I would go with 3 ounces (by weight and diced) of the low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, and about 1.5 ounces of the garlic sauce. That would give us an unbaked pizza weight of 19 ounces. Once we see the extent of the losses during baking, we should have a better idea as to how much cheese and garlic sauce to use in future efforts.

It may also turn out that you prefer to use more cheese and/or sauce than suggested by the PJ Nutrition Facts. Workers in pizza shops have some latitude as to the amounts of cheese and garlic sauce to use even when using a portioning cup for the cheese. Also, FDA rules and regulations do not require that pizzas conform exactly to the Nutrition Facts. Workers can be off 20% on either side and be within the rules and regulations.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If you look at the Nutrition Facts for the PJ Cheesesticks, at http://order.papajohns.com/nutrition/2/subMenu.html, you will see that a single serving size is 4 Cheesesticks, and that there are four servings in the container, or a total of 14 sticks. That means that the total baked weight of the 14 sticks is (3.5 x 136)/28.35 = 16.79 ounces. Of course, the unbaked pizza weighs more than that but we don't yet know what the losses are during baking. But if we assume that the 14.5 ounce dough weight is correct (it may be off by a fraction of an ounce), that doesn't leave us a lot of room for the cheese and garlic sauce. So, until we can get an idea as those losses, I think I would go with 3 ounces (by weight and diced) of the low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, and about 1.5 ounces of the garlic sauce. That would give us an unbaked pizza weight of 19 ounces. Once we see the extent of the losses during baking, we should have a better idea as to how much cheese and garlic sauce to use in future efforts.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining the Nutrition Facts for the PJ Cheesesticks and how they relate to unbaked and baked weights in how much mozzarella and garlic sauce might be added.  I now understand that doesn't leave us much room for the cheese and garlic sauce. 

I should have used a bowl residue compensation when I used the expanded dough calculation tool for the 0.45% IDY.  I know I weighed all the ingredients out right (maybe not exactly for the flour and water on my bigger scale, but did use my little more accurate scale to weigh out the other ingredients), but had some dough in the mixer bowl and on my flat beater after mixing although it didn't look like much.  I weighed the dough after mixing before it was formed into a dough and it only weights 404 grams, so that will have to be taken into consideration. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I should have used a bowl residue compensation when I used the expanded dough calculation tool for the 0.45% IDY.  I know I weighed all the ingredients out right (maybe not exactly for the flour and water on my bigger scale, but did use my little more accurate scale to weigh out the other ingredients), but had some dough in the mixer bowl and on my flat beater after mixing although it didn't look like much.  I weighed the dough after mixing before it was formed into a dough and it only weights 404 grams, so that will have to be taken into consideration. 

Norma,

No need to be concerned. Actually, I intentionally did not use a bowl residue compensation for the dough formulation I prepared for Nate, on the theory that a real PJ dough ball can be off a fraction of an ounce because of the way that their dough dividers/rounders work and cannot produce dough balls with exact weights. Your dough ball weighs 404/28.35 = 14.25 ounces. That gives us another quarter-ounce to play with .

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

No need to be concerned. Actually, I intentionally did not use a bowl residue compensation for the dough formulation I prepared for Nate, on the theory that a real PJ dough ball can be off a fraction of an ounce because of the way that their dough dividers/rounders work and cannot produce dough balls with exact weights. Your dough ball weighs 404/28.35 = 14.25 ounces. That gives us another quarter-ounce to play with .

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting what my dough ball weights in ounces.  Lol about the quarter-ounce to play with.

Norma

[norma427]

These are only some of photos taken after the bake of the PJ attempted cheesesticks made at market.  There are other photos, but I will resize them later.  Steve and I used 3 ounces of LMPS mozzarella and 1.5 ounces of the PJ garlic sauce, but we had my garlic sauce and the rest of PJ's leftover garlic sauce for dipping.  The weight of the baked cheesesticks was 1 lb. 0.3 ounces or between 460-461 grams. 

The PJ clone cheesesticks were good.

My oven temperature was between 485-514 degrees F measured on the middle of the deck and anywhere between 536-546 degrees F measured on either side of the deck.  The bake time was 8:00 minutes.

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

These are the photos of the process of making the PJ clone cheesesticks at market yesterday.  The dough ball sat out to warm-up longer than I wanted, but it was easy to open into a skin.  It can be seen that a bubble formed on the top of the dough ball, but I just pinched that until it broke.  I made some dustinator flour at market yesterday to dust the dough ball and open the dough ball into a skin.  I forgot my docker that was at home, so I used a plastic fork to dock the skin.  The skin was then transferred onto the dark disk.  Steve brushed the PJ garlic sauce on the skin and applied the LMPS mozzarella. 

As can be seen when baking on the dark disk the top cheese want to start to brown and the bottom edges were also browning, but the middle of the bottom crust wasn't browning.  I used the metal peel and then placed the cheesesticks right on the deck.  I think, but don't know, that the cheesesticks would have baked faster if there were placed on the deck instead of using the dark disk first.

Steve sliced the cheesesticks into 16 pieces. 

Steve did shake the two containers of PJ Garlic sauces and what we found was that both of the PJ Garlic sauces were different in texture.  The one was more fluid and the other was more creamy.  I still wonder what is up with the PJ Garlic sauces looking different when they are opened.  It can be seen when the 2 containers of PJ Garlic sauce were combined how they both look different.  The one small square container was the attempt I had made at cloning a PJ Garlic sauce.  Steve said it tasted almost like PJ Garlic sauce, but mine was too salty.  I agreed with my salty issue.  Some taste testers tasted the cheesesticks and thought there were good.   My one friend that tasted the cheesesticks and both Garlic sauces noticed right away that a margarine product was used in both Garlic sauces.

Norma

[norma427]

Steve and I did not use any of the Whirl product yesterday because it kind of tasted stale.  We did add some Butter Buds and powdered Garlic to the Whirl, but we decided against using it.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Steve and I used 3 ounces of LMPS mozzarella and 1.5 ounces of the PJ garlic sauce, but we had my garlic sauce and the rest of PJ's leftover garlic sauce for dipping.  The weight of the baked cheesesticks was 1 lb. 0.3 ounces or between 460-461 grams. 

Norma,

Your number for your baked clone of the PJ Cheesesticks was very close to the weight number given in the PJ Nutrition Facts. Based on the numbers you mentioned for your unbaked clone, the unbaked clone weighed 14.25 (skin) + 3 (cheese)+ 1.5 (clone garlic sauce) = 18.75 ounces. The baked weight was 16.3 ounces. That compares with the 16.79 ounce number from the PJ Nutrition Facts, or a difference of only 0.49 ounces, or a bit less than a half-ounce. The weight loss from a percentage standpoint was about 13%. I wondered what that number would be. We don't know what the corresponding losses would be in one of the PJ conveyor ovens using either a screen or a disk but maybe the small amount of cheese on the skin and no toppings results in greater losses during baking. In any event, if you liked the results you achieved, the numbers suggest that you can increase the amount of cheese and/or the clone garlic sauce a bit and stay close to the PJ Nutrition Facts numbers. Alternatively, you can increase the dough weight a bit. Of course, you can alter the numbers any way you see fit to make the clone Cheesesticks even better, whether you decide to offer such a product at market or not.

Can you refresh my memory on what was in the clone garlic sauce that you used? Was it the I can't believe it isn't Butter clone or one made with the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread? Or maybe something else.

Also, did you like your clone Cheesesticks better than the ones you had recently from the PJ shop you visited? And did you come to any other conclusions?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Your number for your baked clone of the PJ Cheesesticks was very close to the weight number given in the PJ Nutrition Facts. Based on the numbers you mentioned for your unbaked clone, the unbaked clone weighed 14.25 (skin) + 3 (cheese)+ 1.5 (clone garlic sauce) = 18.75 ounces. The baked weight was 16.3 ounces. That compares with the 16.79 ounce number from the PJ Nutrition Facts, or a difference of only 0.49 ounces, or a bit less than a half-ounce. The weight loss from a percentage standpoint was about 13%. I wondered what that number would be. We don't know what the corresponding losses would be in one of the PJ conveyor ovens using either a screen or a disk but maybe the small amount of cheese on the skin and no toppings results in greater losses during baking. In any event, if you liked the results you achieved, the numbers suggest that you can increase the amount of cheese and/or the clone garlic sauce a bit and stay close to the PJ Nutrition Facts numbers. Alternatively, you can increase the dough weight a bit. Of course, you can alter the numbers any way you see fit to make the clone Cheesesticks even better, whether you decide to offer such a product at market or not.

Can you refresh my memory on what was in the clone garlic sauce that you used? Was it the I can't believe it isn't Butter clone or one made with the Parkay Squeeze margarine spread? Or maybe something else.

Also, did you like your clone Cheesesticks better than the ones you had recently from the PJ shop you visited? And did you come to any other conclusions?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the weight of my baked clone of the PJ cheesticks came very close to the weight number for the PJ Nutrition Facts.  I know we don't know what the corresponding losses of weights would be PJ conveyor oven using a screen or a disk.  I would think that no sauce and less cheese would results in greater losses while baking, but don't really know. 

I think I would increase the cheese amount if given the choice. 

The PJ garlic sauce I made was with the Parkay Squeeze product, which I added more Butter Buds than before, a little of the Shank's butter flavoring, a little water and the same garlic powder and the pinch of salt.  I did add a small drop of yellow food coloring to this attempt.  I didn't weigh any of the ingredients because it was getting too late on Monday night to do that. 

I did like my clone Cheesesticks better than PJ's because they were softer, but then I didn't eat the PJ cheesesticks right out of the oven.  They also even tasted better in the crust even for the short cold ferment time.  The only other thing I can think of in your question after other conclusions is my oven at market doesn't bake well on a dark disk.

Do you have any idea of why the two PJ Garlic sauces were so different in consistencies when they were both purchased at the same time?

Norma