Author Topic: Salt and Yeast  (Read 712 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Salt and Yeast
« on: September 06, 2016, 03:42:25 PM »
Here is a good basic article on the role of salt in yeasted doughs:

http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulations/2016/8/Salt-as-a-yeast-stabilizer.aspx?&e=

Peter

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2016, 09:13:46 PM »
Good article Peter!

I find the whole article interesting, but find this part really interesting.

While this function of salt is critical in all yeast-raised products, it also plays a unique role in frozen doughs. These goods need to be able to rise after being thawed out. The yeast must lay dormant and survive the freezing process until the dough can be thawed. Only then should the yeast be activated. As soon as you activate that yeast, its vulnerable to the freezing process, Ms. Schuette said. If you can keep it from becoming active, you ensure it will be active later when the baker thaws it out. Cold water and a quickly dissolving salt keep the yeast dormant for the freezing process. Once the dough is thawed, that yeast will wake up, and the dough can be proofed as normal.

Norma

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2016, 09:18:13 PM »
Norma,

I was thinking of you when I read the excerpt you cited but I wanted to see if you would catch it ;D. If you didn't read it, I would have brought it to your attention even though you were aware of the importance of keeping the yeast inactive in the frozen dough.

Peter

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2016, 09:37:17 PM »
Norma,

I was thinking of you when I read the excerpt you cited but I wanted to see if you would catch it ;D. If you didn't read it, I would have brought it to your attention even though you were aware of the importance of keeping the yeast inactive in the frozen dough.

Peter

Lol Peter about you thinking about me, and wanted to see if I caught that excerpt.  I do use cold water to mix, and try to divide, scale, ball and oil the dough balls as fast as I can.  I really don't know how long the freezer at market takes to freeze my dough balls.  I make them one day and then bag them the next day. 

I also liked some of the other parts of that article.

Norma

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2016, 09:49:37 PM »
Norma,

One of the things that I found interesting was the reference to a quickly dissolving salt. I am not sure whether that is a special form of salt that dissolves more quickly than, say, table salt, but I think the theory is that if the salt dissolves quickly it won't try to take away water from the yeast cells with which it competes for water. If that is correct, then it might make more sense to use a fine salt than a coarser salt like Kosher salt.

Peter


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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2016, 10:06:28 PM »
Norma,

One of the things that I found interesting was the reference to a quickly dissolving salt. I am not sure whether that is a special form of salt that dissolves more quickly than, say, table salt, but I think the theory is that if the salt dissolves quickly it won't try to take away water from the yeast cells with which it competes for water. If that is correct, then it might make more sense to use a fine salt than a coarser salt like Kosher salt.

Peter

Peter,

I also saw that reference to quickly dissolving salt.  How can the salt take water away from the yeast cells if the yeast cells aren't activated?  I thought Tom Lehmann posted somewhere here on the forum that it takes 20 minutes after mixing for IDY to be activated in the dough. 

I sure don't know why, but since I have increased the salt in my regular and frozen doughs to 2% the doughs seems to handle better. 

I still don't know if quick dissolving salt is better than Kosher salt.  I think the Kosher salt gets mixed up fine in the amount of time I mix doughs.

Norma


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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2016, 10:37:26 PM »
Norma,

The effect of salt, which is a hygroscopic ingredient, on yeast is explained from this excerpt that I took from Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14613.msg146699;topicseen#msg146699.

Salt has a retarding effect on the activity of the yeast. The cell wall of yeast is semi-permeable, and by osmosis it absorbs oxygen and nutrients, as it gives off enzymes and other substances to the dough environment. Water is essential for these yeast activities. Salt by its nature is hygroscopic, that is, it attracts moisture. In the presence of salt, the yeast releases some of its water to the salt by osmosis, and this in turn slows the yeast's fermentation or reproductive activities.

I believe that what Tom's comments were directed to is the time that it takes a mixed dough to start to ferment. For a frozen dough, you don't get to the point of fermentation.

In your case, you may be fine with the type of salt you use because you aren't making frozen dough with a long storage life where the type of salt might become more critical.

Peter

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2016, 03:07:20 PM »
Thanks for the article

Offline dms

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2016, 12:15:00 AM »
Norma,

One of the things that I found interesting was the reference to a quickly dissolving salt. I am not sure whether that is a special form of salt that dissolves more quickly than, say, table salt,

there are two basic ways to make salt disolve faster.  The first is to make the grains smaller, which increases their surface area to volume ratio.  The other is to make salt with one of a couple of processes that interrupt the crystal formation.  I think super fine salt is more common. 

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2016, 12:45:11 AM »
Kosher salt with its larger crystal size takes longer to dissolve while the salt used by commercial bakeries for regular and frozen dough production has a smaller particle size than even regular table salt, it is almost, but not quite to a powdered form. In addition to regulating yeast activity and strengthening the dough salt also helps frozen doughs by reducing water activity in the dough (only salt and sugar will reduce water activity) for this reason salt is normally maximized in frozen dough production with levels at 2 to 2.25% or even slightly higher, at the same time because frozen dough is not fermented the products made from it are inherently lacking in flavor so with the higher salt level the flavor is improved slightly at the same time.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2016, 07:25:36 AM »
Kosher salt with its larger crystal size takes longer to dissolve while the salt used by commercial bakeries for regular and frozen dough production has a smaller particle size than even regular table salt, it is almost, but not quite to a powdered form. In addition to regulating yeast activity and strengthening the dough salt also helps frozen doughs by reducing water activity in the dough (only salt and sugar will reduce water activity) for this reason salt is normally maximized in frozen dough production with levels at 2 to 2.25% or even slightly higher, at the same time because frozen dough is not fermented the products made from it are inherently lacking in flavor so with the higher salt level the flavor is improved slightly at the same time.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks for telling us that commercial bakers use a smaller particle size than even regular table salt, and it is almost a powdered form.  I guess I didn't know salt helps frozen doughs by reducing the water activity in the dough.  I do use 2% salt in my frozen doughs.  What does LDM do in frozen doughs?  I have been adding LDM to my frozen doughs.

Norma

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2016, 12:55:45 PM »
Norma;
Diastatic malt?
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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2016, 01:26:00 PM »

Offline misterschu

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2016, 03:55:33 PM »
I would think the point of "quick dissolving" salt would be to quickly and evenly distribute the salt in the mixture, so that it more readily and quickly inhibits the yeast activity, through the method described in the (2nd) paragraph you cited.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2016, 06:39:34 PM »
Thank you Peter.
A small amount of diastatic malt powder is not a problem in frozen dough production as malted flour is almost always used. You just don't want to dose it to the point where you are beginning to see some stickiness in the finished dough. Frozen doughs are already a little sticky after slacking out so it won't help to make the dough even stickier.
As for the salt in a frozen dough, salt will significantly slow the rate of fermentation depending upon the balance between salt and yeast. The temperature of the frozen dough has the greatest depressing effect upon the yeast in the mixing bowl and then the salt also contributes to this depressing effect. The reason for using a very fine particle size salt is to ensure thorough dispersion throughout the dough mass (remember that commercially, the salt is added close to the end of the mixing process so as not to toughen the dough any more than what the depressed temperature already has and it is a well known fact that cold doughs do not develop gluten as quickly as warm doughs do so by leaving the salt out of the dough until about the last 4 to 5-minutes of mixing the dough develops quicker which in turn takes significant stress off of the mixer and agitator bars. Then the shorter mixing time doesn't generate as much heat due to friction during mixing so it is easier to achieve and maintain the target finished dough temperature which is normally between 60 and 65F with 70F generally considered as the very top end for dough temperature when making frozen dough. Add to that the fact that yeast typically exhibits about a 20-minute lag phase before it begins to feed and create fermentation as we know it. Since the objective in a frozen dough plant is to process the dough and get it frozen as quickly as possible (the reason being to limit growth/swelling of the individual yeast cells) since the mere act of freezing the dough (even blast freezing at -35F with 600 to 800-linear feet of air flow over the product per minute) will create some large ice crystals though the majority will be much smaller ice crystals, it is the formation of those large ice crystals that damages the yeast during the freezing process and if the yeast is allowed to begin feeding (plumping up the yeast cells) more of the cells are damaged in the freezing process, so to minimize the damage to the yeast the main focus is to mix and freeze as quickly as possible. Assuming a 10-minute mixing time and a 20-minute yeast lag phase that leaves only about 10-minutes to get the dough processed and into the freezer (actually most lines are designed to process the dough in 15 to 20-minutes so there is a compromise between processing and quality/shelf life of the dough) additionally remember that the dough doesn't get chilled to a point where the temperature suppresses yeast activity (40F) until the dough has been in the freezer for about 15-minutes (depending upon the size and shape of the dough). This is why there is inevitable damage to the yeast even with commercial freezing processes. It has been determined that about 10% of the yeast is damaged during the freezing process which is responsible for the release of glutathione from the yeast cells, which in turn weakens the dough and explains why we occasionally see some inherent stickiness in frozen dough which now leads us to the addition of oxidation to the dough. Ascorbic acid, azodicarbonamide and some of the newer oxidative enzymes are used in conjunction with strengtheners such as SSL (sodium stearoyl lactylate) and DATEM. This is just the tip of frozen dough iceberg, there is a lot more to it but this should give you an idea of how the ingredients interact and why certain ones are used.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor 

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2016, 07:21:49 PM »
Tom,

That is fascinating stuff.

When I was trying to clone the Lamonica's frozen dough (the Costco version), one of the experiments I conducted had the salt (regular table salt) added late in the mixing process. The IDY was also added late in the process, just before the salt, presumably to delay activation of the IDY. The amount of IDY used was large enough to compensate for some loss due to ice crystals. I don't recall offhand where I got some of these ideas but maybe they came from what you and others had written on the subject.

As for the LDM, my recollection, which Norma can confirm, is that she does not use much. Also, the LDM also includes some flour and dextrose, so the amount of barley malt is less than the percent of LDM would suggest.

Thankfully, Norma does not have to try to make commercial type dough balls with very long shelf lives. The dough balls are apparently good enough and have become big sellers. So, I don't see any need to change things. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it :-D. But, knowing the perfectionist Norma, I wouldn't be surprised if she sneaks in some of the ideas you mentioned, if only to satisfy her insatiable curiosity.

Peter


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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2016, 08:28:32 PM »
Peter;
Going back a short time ago, I had mentioned in another thread about static freezing of dough, which is nothing more than freezing the dough in a "freezer" (0 to 05F and little to no airflow). As we know, this is quite deleterious to the yeast but all of the results that I got when doing the research on freezing dough indicated that the dough can be frozen in this manner and still perform reasonably well BUT the shelf life is reduced from 21-weeks for blast frozen dough to 10 to 15-days when it is static frozen. I seriously doubt that there is anything that Norma could do short of blast freezing or cryogenic freezing (-65F) to achieve any significant improvement in the quality of her frozen dough. I'm in total agreement with you, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The rules for formulating a fresh dough into a frozen dough is to increase the yeast by 50%. This is done for two reasons, 1) it compensates for the damaged yeast cells and 2) it helps to reduce the overall proofing time and improve the oven spring properties of the dough which are lost through weakening of the dough. Increase (maximize) the salt and sugar levels to reduce water activity (Aw) in the dough as a means of further protecting the yeast. Change from oil to shortening and have the shortening at 4% or slightly more to help seal the gas cells in the dough for improved gas retention resulting in better finished volumes (not so important with pizza dough but critical for dough that will be used to make bread and rolls). Minimize the amount of water added to the dough (% absorption) so as to help in retaining a firmer dough after slacking out, remember that freezing the dough results in it getting softer, some times to the point of being sticky so more water will just compound the issue. Use "additives" as needed to achieve the desired shelf life characteristics. Mix the dough to full gluten development and then just enough more to achieve the necessary dough properties that will allow for uninterrupted high speed processing of the dough. After the forming of the dough into balls, pucks, or moulded loaves get the dough into the freezer as quickly as possible with two objectives 1) reduce the internal dough temperature to 38 to 40F (this will control the yeast activity) and 2) bring the internal dough temperature down to 0 to+10F (this is the lowest temperature that we take the dough down to (economics) and then package and place into a holding freezer at -10 to -5F for a minimum of 24-hours before loading on a freezer transport for distribution. If the dough is cryogenically frozen the process is a little different in that the dough is frozen at -65F (what we call shell freezing) and the internal temperature is between +15 and +20F, the dough is then packaged and placed into a holding freezer (-10 to -5F) for 2-hours after which the internal temperature of the dough is again measured, we're looking for 0 to +5F. If the dough balls have equillibrated to that temperature they will remain in the storage freezer for the mandatory 24-hour period, if the dough balls have a higher core temperature they are given a longer residence time in the cryogenic freezer, if they are below the target temperature the residence time is reduced accordingly (again economics). I might add that the term "anal attentive" is properly and politely used to describe anyone responsible for commercial frozen dough production. Why is this? Because in a frozen dough operation you may have up to 21-weeks of production out there on a limb.....now is not the time to find out that all of the dough is failing after three weeks of storage. In a frozen dough plant it is a life of measuring the quality of each ingredient that goes into making the dough and then religiously maintaining the processing parameters and enforcing those parameters so if a dough falls outside of the parameters it is scrapped or diverted into a different processing area for use in making something else or for use in a special application where shelf life is not the order of the day such as sale or donation to a food bank where the dough will be used rather soon. It's even more fun when you get into studying the distribution of frozen dough, and to put a twist into the cat's tail there is another type of frozen dough which is called "pre-proofed frozen dough". I know, it sounds contrary to everything we've discussed but it can and is being done very successfully, where you ask? Look no further than your local supermarket, frozen pizza section, Schwan's Foods Freschetta Pizza, yep, pre-proofed frozen, but that's another story.
Tom Lehmann/the Dough Doctor

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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2016, 08:41:55 PM »
Thank you Peter.
A small amount of diastatic malt powder is not a problem in frozen dough production as malted flour is almost always used. You just don't want to dose it to the point where you are beginning to see some stickiness in the finished dough. Frozen doughs are already a little sticky after slacking out so it won't help to make the dough even stickier.
As for the salt in a frozen dough, salt will significantly slow the rate of fermentation depending upon the balance between salt and yeast. The temperature of the frozen dough has the greatest depressing effect upon the yeast in the mixing bowl and then the salt also contributes to this depressing effect. The reason for using a very fine particle size salt is to ensure thorough dispersion throughout the dough mass (remember that commercially, the salt is added close to the end of the mixing process so as not to toughen the dough any more than what the depressed temperature already has and it is a well known fact that cold doughs do not develop gluten as quickly as warm doughs do so by leaving the salt out of the dough until about the last 4 to 5-minutes of mixing the dough develops quicker which in turn takes significant stress off of the mixer and agitator bars. Then the shorter mixing time doesn't generate as much heat due to friction during mixing so it is easier to achieve and maintain the target finished dough temperature which is normally between 60 and 65F with 70F generally considered as the very top end for dough temperature when making frozen dough. Add to that the fact that yeast typically exhibits about a 20-minute lag phase before it begins to feed and create fermentation as we know it. Since the objective in a frozen dough plant is to process the dough and get it frozen as quickly as possible (the reason being to limit growth/swelling of the individual yeast cells) since the mere act of freezing the dough (even blast freezing at -35F with 600 to 800-linear feet of air flow over the product per minute) will create some large ice crystals though the majority will be much smaller ice crystals, it is the formation of those large ice crystals that damages the yeast during the freezing process and if the yeast is allowed to begin feeding (plumping up the yeast cells) more of the cells are damaged in the freezing process, so to minimize the damage to the yeast the main focus is to mix and freeze as quickly as possible. Assuming a 10-minute mixing time and a 20-minute yeast lag phase that leaves only about 10-minutes to get the dough processed and into the freezer (actually most lines are designed to process the dough in 15 to 20-minutes so there is a compromise between processing and quality/shelf life of the dough) additionally remember that the dough doesn't get chilled to a point where the temperature suppresses yeast activity (40F) until the dough has been in the freezer for about 15-minutes (depending upon the size and shape of the dough). This is why there is inevitable damage to the yeast even with commercial freezing processes. It has been determined that about 10% of the yeast is damaged during the freezing process which is responsible for the release of glutathione from the yeast cells, which in turn weakens the dough and explains why we occasionally see some inherent stickiness in frozen dough which now leads us to the addition of oxidation to the dough. Ascorbic acid, azodicarbonamide and some of the newer oxidative enzymes are used in conjunction with strengtheners such as SSL (sodium stearoyl lactylate) and DATEM. This is just the tip of frozen dough iceberg, there is a lot more to it but this should give you an idea of how the ingredients interact and why certain ones are used.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Peter;
Going back a short time ago, I had mentioned in another thread about static freezing of dough, which is nothing more than freezing the dough in a "freezer" (0 to 05F and little to no airflow). As we know, this is quite deleterious to the yeast but all of the results that I got when doing the research on freezing dough indicated that the dough can be frozen in this manner and still perform reasonably well BUT the shelf life is reduced from 21-weeks for blast frozen dough to 10 to 15-days when it is static frozen. I seriously doubt that there is anything that Norma could do short of blast freezing or cryogenic freezing (-65F) to achieve any significant improvement in the quality of her frozen dough. I'm in total agreement with you, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The rules for formulating a fresh dough into a frozen dough is to increase the yeast by 50%. This is done for two reasons, 1) it compensates for the damaged yeast cells and 2) it helps to reduce the overall proofing time and improve the oven spring properties of the dough which are lost through weakening of the dough. Increase (maximize) the salt and sugar levels to reduce water activity (Aw) in the dough as a means of further protecting the yeast. Change from oil to shortening and have the shortening at 4% or slightly more to help seal the gas cells in the dough for improved gas retention resulting in better finished volumes (not so important with pizza dough but critical for dough that will be used to make bread and rolls). Minimize the amount of water added to the dough (% absorption) so as to help in retaining a firmer dough after slacking out, remember that freezing the dough results in it getting softer, some times to the point of being sticky so more water will just compound the issue. Use "additives" as needed to achieve the desired shelf life characteristics. Mix the dough to full gluten development and then just enough more to achieve the necessary dough properties that will allow for uninterrupted high speed processing of the dough. After the forming of the dough into balls, pucks, or moulded loaves get the dough into the freezer as quickly as possible with two objectives 1) reduce the internal dough temperature to 38 to 40F (this will control the yeast activity) and 2) bring the internal dough temperature down to 0 to+10F (this is the lowest temperature that we take the dough down to (economics) and then package and place into a holding freezer at -10 to -5F for a minimum of 24-hours before loading on a freezer transport for distribution. If the dough is cryogenically frozen the process is a little different in that the dough is frozen at -65F (what we call shell freezing) and the internal temperature is between +15 and +20F, the dough is then packaged and placed into a holding freezer (-10 to -5F) for 2-hours after which the internal temperature of the dough is again measured, we're looking for 0 to +5F. If the dough balls have equillibrated to that temperature they will remain in the storage freezer for the mandatory 24-hour period, if the dough balls have a higher core temperature they are given a longer residence time in the cryogenic freezer, if they are below the target temperature the residence time is reduced accordingly (again economics). I might add that the term "anal attentive" is properly and politely used to describe anyone responsible for commercial frozen dough production. Why is this? Because in a frozen dough operation you may have up to 21-weeks of production out there on a limb.....now is not the time to find out that all of the dough is failing after three weeks of storage. In a frozen dough plant it is a life of measuring the quality of each ingredient that goes into making the dough and then religiously maintaining the processing parameters and enforcing those parameters so if a dough falls outside of the parameters it is scrapped or diverted into a different processing area for use in making something else or for use in a special application where shelf life is not the order of the day such as sale or donation to a food bank where the dough will be used rather soon. It's even more fun when you get into studying the distribution of frozen dough, and to put a twist into the cat's tail there is another type of frozen dough which is called "pre-proofed frozen dough". I know, it sounds contrary to everything we've discussed but it can and is being done very successfully, where you ask? Look no further than your local supermarket, frozen pizza section, Schwan's Foods Freschetta Pizza, yep, pre-proofed frozen, but that's another story.
Tom Lehmann/the Dough Doctor

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks so much for for all of your explanations!  It going to take me awhile to digest all that you posted.  I don't think I will ever understand all that you posted.

Norma


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Re: Salt and Yeast
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2016, 08:44:12 PM »
Tom,

As for the LDM, my recollection, which Norma can confirm, is that she does not use much. Also, the LDM also includes some flour and dextrose, so the amount of barley malt is less than the percent of LDM would suggest.

Thankfully, Norma does not have to try to make commercial type dough balls with very long shelf lives. The dough balls are apparently good enough and have become big sellers. So, I don't see any need to change things. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it :-D. But, knowing the perfectionist Norma, I wouldn't be surprised if she sneaks in some of the ideas you mentioned, if only to satisfy her insatiable curiosity.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that I don't use very much LDM.  I don't think I will change what is being done to make the frozen dough balls.  They seem to work okay for customers.

Norma