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Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 178580 times)

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Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #280 on: September 27, 2015, 05:19:27 PM »
Okay, Wow! That's is such a huge help...Of course, being so non-math oriented, my brain exploded...Pow!

Along with all the the detail you provided, I can see that my original thought of how to do this was backward..I was adding hours instead of subtracting them (from the 11 in the 64F column. Since this math problem is the reverse of what I was trying to do in your explanation last week, it makes sense (even to me) that while I was adding hours then, I would be subtracting them now.

Clearly I gave you a doozy of a situation here, but your real-world explanation of why this might be needed seems just right to me...a need to bake sooner rather than later, when the dough has been planned for later...let's say the company you were expecting for Sunday night is now arriving Friday night.

Thanks for all this work, Craig.

Offline c4lin

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #281 on: November 14, 2015, 10:33:22 AM »
Some of last night's pies. Only 8h room temp rise, didn't have more time... Not bad at all taste-wise, pretty damn good.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #282 on: November 14, 2015, 11:15:13 AM »
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline norcoscia

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Baker's Pride GP-61 NG and PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #284 on: November 14, 2015, 03:00:52 PM »
Nice Carlos.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline c4lin

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Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #285 on: November 14, 2015, 03:54:04 PM »
Nice Carlos.
thanks Craig. Improving. These were 2 today, with 2 balls left, colder and more relaxed dough, easier to open. Yesterday I balled 3h before, was a bit harder to open.

Carlos.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 11:11:54 AM by c4lin »

Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #286 on: November 15, 2015, 08:56:51 PM »
Craig,

Just wanted to say a big thanks yet again for the great chart...Today I discovered a slightly different use.

As summer turned to fall and we're heading into winter, the house is of course cooler. I am CF'g most of my dough now but there's always the tempering where at least a little extra development usually happens.

I'd been using what seems to be a fairly standard estimate of about 2 hours....which worked fine in the mid-70's. But ten degrees or more cooler. dough wasn't ready. A check on the chart told me that 2 hours wouldn't work nearly as well as the temperature-adjusted time..6 or 7   hours.  Which yielded very good results.

Thanks!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #287 on: November 16, 2015, 08:29:24 AM »
Glad to hear it.
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Offline drogus

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #288 on: November 21, 2015, 04:21:23 PM »
I'm sorry if that was already brought up, I haven't read all of the posts in this topic.

Some time ago I found a few different formulas for estimating fermentation time on one of the Italian forums, for example: http://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=71172167

What's interesting about that formula is it incorporates salt and hydration into the calculation of the amount of yeast needed. There's also a calculator based on that: http://pizza2calc.altervista.org/calcolatore-pizza/nuovo-pizza2calc/index.html (choose preset "Japi" to get the formula from the thread I linked to). The difference can be quite significant, for example for a 60% hydration dough with 3.5% salt for 24h at 20C, it outputs 1.23g per litre, or 0.074% in baker's percent. For 65% hydration dough and 3% salt and same conditions, it outputs 0.83g per litre, or 0.054% in baker's percent.

I know why such a difference can occur, ie. more salt slows down fermentation and high hydration increases the fermentation rate, but now I'm wondering how it plays with the prediction model from this thread. Has anyone using Craig's table taken hydration and/or salt amount into account? I almost always use 3% salt and I ususally use hydration in the range of 63-65%, so I wouldn't probably see much variance in my results, but I'd be curious to here other's experiences.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #289 on: November 21, 2015, 05:00:49 PM »
As I've said over and over, this is not intended to be a be-all-end-all. It was created to give you a well educated guess where to start when creating or converting recipes. It was designed to operate within normal tolerances such as 1.7 - 3% salt and 58-65% HR, but it works pretty well outside of those ranges in many cases. Tweaking is to be expected whether you use my tables or something else. I've tested the Pizza 2 Calc with formulas that I know work (and are well predicted by my tables) and it over estimates some and underestimates others. My suggestion is to use what you feel comfortable with.
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Offline drogus

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #290 on: November 22, 2015, 05:19:19 AM »
As I've said over and over, this is not intended to be a be-all-end-all.

Sure, I have never treated it as anything else. Probably I wasn't very clear in my post on the purpose of my question, but I was not trying to find a golden formula, which would always work for everyone in every conditions. It was more of a question to experienced pizza enthusiasts if they ever take into account the amount of salt and hydration before applying values from your table.

To illustrate this with an example: as I wrote earlier I usually use 3% of salt and I do 63% hydration and the table works OK me. One day I may decide to go really high with hydration, like 70%. This is experimenting, so I don't mind a failed pizza, but if there's a way to predict the result better, I'd like to use it. So, if I know how such a difference in hydration will change the rise time, even if it's a rough estimation, it would be cool to have such a tool.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 11:35:42 AM by drogus »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #291 on: November 22, 2015, 12:29:17 PM »
Sure, I have never treated it as anything else. Probably I wasn't very clear in my post on the purpose of my question, but I was not trying to find a golden formula, which would always work for everyone in every conditions. It was more of a question to experienced pizza enthusiasts if they ever take into account the amount of salt and hydration before applying values from your table.

To illustrate this with an example: as I wrote earlier I usually use 3% of salt and I do 63% hydration and the table works OK me. One day I may decide to go really high with hydration, like 70%. This is experimenting, so I don't mind a failed pizza, but if there's a way to predict the result better, I'd like to use it. So, if I know how such a difference in hydration will change the rise time, even if it's a rough estimation, it would be cool to have such a tool.

It's a good question. Personally, I think the effect of hydration and salt within normal ranges is pretty trivial to other variables such as the temperature of your water, the mixing time and technique, the ambient temp and how long your dough is at that temp, etc. Once you are very confident in your control over the less obvious variables (that is to say that you are really consistent in everything you do in your workflow) things like salt level and hydration might influence whether you round up or down when using this table.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Bert

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #292 on: December 14, 2015, 08:50:11 AM »
Yes that is the latest version. Surprisingly perhaps, the inner workings of this table is a bit more complex than the SD table. I'm not sure it can be distilled down into a single formula the way we did for starters.

To create a similar form as the one I did for the sourdough http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/sourdough-bread-or-pizza-recipe-creator/  I am thinking about using lagrange correlation for each row.

Craig, is it possible to get the table in excel file, it will save some time inputting the data.

Thanks
Bert

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #293 on: December 14, 2015, 04:12:39 PM »
I'm out of town. I'll look for it when I get back.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Bert

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #294 on: December 16, 2015, 08:26:38 AM »
Thanks Craig,
Bert

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Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #295 on: December 19, 2015, 03:55:32 PM »
Tbh, my dough has been in the fridge for 3 days and I barely see any development.
Water is 60%
Oil 6%
salt 2%
Diastatic malt 2%
Sugar 3%
IDY .5%

It isn't bubbling up or anything, there's very little activity is this normal?

I mix with room temp water if that helps.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #296 on: December 19, 2015, 04:00:28 PM »
With that much sugar, yeast, and DMP, I think you may have bad yeast.
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Offline MUAATH

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #297 on: December 29, 2015, 08:17:38 AM »
what about
If the dough rest at room temperature for an hour Let's say the degree of thermal 70F
And then transfer to the refrigerator 35F
Will be complex will need to calculate what has been achieved from each stage i
Then subtraction of the final stage

Offline MUAATH

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #298 on: December 29, 2015, 08:19:22 AM »
what about
If the dough rest at room temperature for an hour Let's say the degree of  temperature 70F
And then transfer to the refrigerator 35F
Will be complex will need to calculate what has been achieved from each stage i
Then subtraction of the final stage

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #299 on: December 29, 2015, 08:23:32 AM »
what about
If the dough rest at room temperature for an hour Let's say the degree of thermal 70F
And then transfer to the refrigerator 35F
Will be complex will need to calculate what has been achieved from each stage i
Then subtraction of the final stage

I would probably ignore the initial hour or maybe take a few hours off the refrigeration time, test it, then tweak the yeast quantity or fermentation time as necessary to get the dough ready when you want it. The table will give you a place to start - not a perfect solution. Plenty of other things you do could effect the outcome as much or more than the initial hour at 70F.

It is possible to use the tables with multiple timp/temperature combinations. Instructions how to do it are here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg230690#msg230690
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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