Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results

[Obsauced]

I'm happy to take a stab at this and give you feedback.

I've made a pizza a week for 5 years but only now have decided to learn how to do it.  I've been using 2% yeast in 60-65% hydration dough that I usually give 2 days in the fridge.  But I don't really check it but have just randomly noticed it seems big enough after some small number of hours (which I never noted).  One reason I just joined this forum was to figure out how much yeast was actually necessary.

What do ADY, IDY, and CY mean?

ADY- Active Dry Yeast
IDY- Instant Dry Yeast
CY- Cake Yeast--Fresh Yeast--Levito di birra

[Pete-zza]

What do ADY, IDY, and CY mean?

Swiss Frank,

See https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875.

Peter

[icemanxp300]

This is likely the best spot for this information. A few months back I found out my fridge was not functioning as it should. My milk was spoiling too quickly. Then I was channel surfing and ran across a cooking show that mentioned the fridge temperature should be I believe they said 38 degrees.

I ended up doing a temp test by leaving a bottle of water in the fridge for awhile and the temp only read 42 degrees. I ended up buying a new fridge. Now when I CF my dough it does not rise nearly as much as it did in the 42 degree temp. I think the new temp is more like 36 actually I just checked and it gets down to 32.8 degrees where I put my dough. No wonder I don't get much rise in it.

So yes fridge temp. plays a key role in how much yeast reacts and how much the dough will rise. It is not something I personally gave any thought to.

I do 24 hr CF and was using 5g ADY .55%

As far as the results. My 42 degree temp seemed to allow the dough to ferment at least twice as much.

[MadMatt]

This is likely the best spot for this information. A few months back I found out my fridge was not functioning as it should. My milk was spoiling too quickly. Then I was channel surfing and ran across a cooking show that mentioned the fridge temperature should be I believe they said 38 degrees.

I ended up doing a temp test by leaving a bottle of water in the fridge for awhile and the temp only read 42 degrees. I ended up buying a new fridge. Now when I CF my dough it does not rise nearly as much as it did in the 42 degree temp. I think the new temp is more like 36 actually I just checked and it gets down to 32.8 degrees where I put my dough. No wonder I don't get much rise in it.

So yes fridge temp. plays a key role in how much yeast reacts and how much the dough will rise. It is not something I personally gave any thought to.

I do 24 hr CF and was using 5g ADY .55%

As far as the results. My 42 degree temp seemed to allow the dough to ferment at least twice as much.

I don't think its possible to even get my fridge down to 38f  right now I have it set on 4 out of 5  and it's reading  about 40-41f   and this is in the bottom shelf  where meat is meant to be stored and thats colder than other areas.

Never had any food spoil,  in fact most things last lot longer than they should.


  I made a 3 day dough at 0.22%   IDY and it appeared to have risen in 40 or so hours rather than 72,  I put it in the compartment where veg and fruit is meant to go, which is reading a few degrees higher than where the meat goes.    It was probably like 6-7c which  according to the chart makes sense that the dough fermented that quickly.




Now I'm on 0.16% idy and I think that may be too much at my fridge temp. 


Here in UK some manufacturers recommend fridge should read between 4-5c  or 39.2f   to  41f   a bit higher than US it seems. Guess I'll just have to adjust until I get it right.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Right, it's just a matter of tweaking. Put the fridge at settings that let milk and meat last long and not spoil, and just adjust yeast levels as needed.


And it's often  better to guess a little low on yeast, since you can push it along later by leaving it at room temp, or higher as needed..a microwave where a container of water has just boiled is a good place to put some very sluggish dough; an oven preheated to ts lowest setting, then switched off is another. In both cases, though, keep an eye on the dough..it moves fast. A bread proofer is even better if one is available.

[lem865]

I just have one questions about the timing. I am a newbie so just trying to get my head around everything.

As mentioned on this thread the timing is relevant to when the ball is ready to bake. Is there some space after this before they are not bakeable or is this end of the line so to speak?

Thanks

[TXCraig1]

Is there some space after this before they are not bakeable or is this end of the line so to speak?

The predicted time is best described as an average result. Some testing and tweaking may be necessary given your specific formula and workflow which will also have a big effect on how much time you will have to use the balls. For example, warmer/more yeast/faster ferments will have shorter window than cooler/less yeast/longer fermentation.

[lem865]

ok, Thanks for that Craig.

I am experimenting with some recipes using wet dough starters which are to be at room temp for 24-hours before a 48-hour cold ferment (this recipe is from a book and just says put in the fridge so I am assuming this is 4c). And I am just looking at comparing with the chart. Would this chart include the dough starters 24 hours at room temperature? I am a bit confused as more yeast is added at this point so would this further complicate things?

All help much appreciated.

[TXCraig1]

ok, Thanks for that Craig.

I am experimenting with some recipes using wet dough starters which are to be at room temp for 24-hours before a 48-hour cold ferment (this recipe is from a book and just says put in the fridge so I am assuming this is 4c). And I am just looking at comparing with the chart. Would this chart include the dough starters 24 hours at room temperature? I am a bit confused as more yeast is added at this point so would this further complicate things?

All help much appreciated.

I don't think the table will work with preferments as in that recipe. All the data it's built on is direct method fermentation.  What are you trying to accomplish? That recipe has a huge window of usability.

[lem865]

To be honest, I am new to the whole thing and I am just trying to understand the process. I am a chef with a lot of experience in other areas but not with dough. I am planning to open a take-away NP pizza shop in the future so just trying to learn as much as possible.

One problem I have been having is that the dough has been sticking to the peel. I thought this may have been down to over-fermentaion or
under-working the gluten and this is why I have been asking about timing. I think this is actually also due to my sauce being too watery too as I have just been practising with no cheese and canned chopped tomatoes for some of the pizzas.

This forum is absolute gold for my situation either way:)

[TXCraig1]

Using a preferment is not common in Neapolitan pizza. Someone who strictly adheres to the VPN standard would say it's not Neapolitan pizza at all. I wouldn't necessarily go that far, but it's not what I think makes the best Neapolitan pizza. There are lots of way to get there from 8-12 hours at a warm room temp to 24-48 and a cooler room temp to 24+ in the fridge. The difference between them is yeast quantity and fermentation temperature. You need to experiment to see what works best for you.

As for stickiness, there could be several things including:

- the preferment which develops enzymes and dead yeast, both of which soften the dough
- the hydration, maybe too much water for the flour
- the flour itself, lower quality flour can result in sticky dough, AOTBE.
- overfermentation

It's unlikely that it's underdeveloped gluten; with 24h+ fermentation, the gluten will develop itself, even with no kneading.

[lem865]

Ah, ok what about a hot metal peel?

I just baked with the recipe I posted earlier and things improved hugely. The dough was sticking a lot less. I think the peel has been a factor in my previous attempts as well as my poor stretching skills.

The peel was heating up and then I would stretch a terrible pizza that is very thin in some places and they would seem to stick to the peel or the bench etc...

One thing I am worrying about too is how these pizzas will travel. I can imaging them getting soggy and/or cold in pizza boxes. Hopefully there is a solution in a dough recipe/oven temp somewhere.

[TXCraig1]

Ah, ok what about a hot metal peel?

I just baked with the recipe I posted earlier and things improved hugely. The dough was sticking a lot less. I think the peel has been a factor in my previous attempts as well as my poor stretching skills.

The peel was heating up and then I would stretch a terrible pizza that is very thin in some places and they would seem to stick to the peel or the bench etc...

One thing I am worrying about too is how these pizzas will travel. I can imaging them getting soggy and/or cold in pizza boxes. Hopefully there is a solution in a dough recipe/oven temp somewhere.

Yes, a hot peel is a problem. Unless you have long breaks between pies, you really need two peels - a launching peel, and a turning peel.

Neapolitan pizza doesn't travel particularly well as a pizza, however the way it's served in Naples as a street food, "a portafoglio," does.

[lem865]

Ok, lots of work for me to do then!

Thanks for the help:)

[hammettjr]

Here is the table pushed out to 1% IDY / 3% CY:

Craig, any chance you can extend the temp to 33F ?

[TXCraig1]

Craig, any chance you can extend the temp to 33F ?

Forever.

[hammettjr]

Forever.

  that explains alot. Once my regular fridge is fixed I should be using 37F, but I will have one last bake at this super cold temp

[mux]

Can someone explain to me how long to bulk ferment vs in balls?  I followed the chart for 24C and did a 18 hour bulk ferment, and then balled them up and left them again at 24C for another 6 hours. Needless to say, the dough did not actually rise a lot at all, when baked it was dense, indicating not enough fermentation. Did I do something fundamentally wrong?  The percent was about 0.01% using ADY (I am skeptical on such a low quantity).   I dissolved 1g in 100ml of water and used the appropriate amount of this slury in my dough.

[ARenko]

Can someone explain to me how long to bulk ferment vs in balls?  I followed the chart for 24C and did a 18 hour bulk ferment, and then balled them up and left them again at 24C for another 6 hours. Needless to say, the dough did not actually rise a lot at all, when baked it was dense, indicating not enough fermentation. Did I do something fundamentally wrong?  The percent was about 0.01% using ADY (I am skeptical on such a low quantity).   I dissolved 1g in 100ml of water and used the appropriate amount of this slury in my dough.

You didn't ferment long enough.  Let's just say you're at 23.9C - interpolate and you'll get 35 hours for .01% ADY.

23.9C/ .008% ADY/ 39 hours
23.9C/ .013% ADY/ 29 hours

I'd highly recommend an accurate scale that can weigh .01g for the future.

[thowi]

I have been wanting to incorporate this table into a baker percentage calculator for a while, finaly I got it done with some help . The form corolate data that are not on the table. Try it out, let me know if it works for you or if you have any recommendation to improve it.

http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/dough-recipe-creator/

Hey Bert, that link is broken now, but I believe https://www.mightypizzastone.com/2017/02/04/pizza-and-bread-dough-recipe-creator/ is a similar calculator?
In any case, would you mind sharing the formula that you came up with (you mentioned Lagrange correlation in another post), so we can just calculate the yeast amount ourselves?

Thanks!