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Offline texmex

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #360 on: February 08, 2016, 08:31:40 AM »
Laughing so hard causes my tears to flow...where's my handkerchief?  I didn't even turn the volume on, so just the visual has me losing it. That's some funny #[email protected]&*%
Reesa

Offline One Eyed Jack

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #361 on: February 08, 2016, 10:18:25 AM »
Like trying to slide a Hippo off a dinner plate.He needs to think balance,and proportions. LOL Good one

Offline the1mu

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That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #362 on: February 13, 2016, 08:05:50 AM »
Chau,

So, after I have used the mixer, I much better understand what you meant by a proper dough ball will not stick to the peel.

I launched 3 pies tonight without any stick-age what so ever. I still had some problems opening them (still trying to perfect my method. I think I was a bit too rough on them. Pretty sure I balled them just fine, though) with a minor tear in 2 but I barely floured the peel and the came off almost too quickly. The first just slid off with such ease, that it totally took me by surprise.

The pies were so close to being perfect... The better mixed ball had the proper oven spring, came off the peel well, had a light crunch and browned the way I would expect them to. All in all, much closer to my desired perfect.

For my next pursuit of perfect, I'm gonna to lower the bake temp 10 degrees and see if that helps (oh and the batch I mixed has 2% egg whites so I know already it'll have a crispness to it).

Anyway, thanks for the tips! It was a big help!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #363 on: February 13, 2016, 08:11:30 AM »
Aric,

You did a great job. Very impressive.

Peter

Offline the1mu

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #364 on: February 13, 2016, 08:12:50 AM »

Aric,

You did a great job. Very impressive.

Peter

Thank you! That is very encouraging!

I just looked back at the pictures and am laughing at the fact the pepperoni perfectly migrated away from the center. I swear, I always put one in the middle! :D

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #365 on: February 13, 2016, 08:23:11 AM »
Aric, that is a good looking pizza!  Just curious but did you use a metal peel or a wooden one to launch these pizzas?   Also when did the dough develop small tears in it?  When you were balling the dough or when you were opening it?

Offline the1mu

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #366 on: February 13, 2016, 08:27:28 AM »
Aric, that is a good looking pizza!  Just curious but did you use a metal peel or a wooden one to launch these pizzas?   Also when did the dough develop small tears in it?  When you were balling the dough or when you were opening it?

Chau,

It began to tear at the very last stage of stretching. Basically, I had developed thin spots as I began to work the dough and then when I had it off the table to finish the stretch that thin spot tore. The rest was fine.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #367 on: February 13, 2016, 08:51:40 AM »
Aric, thin spots are usually mistakenly blamed on not properly opening the dough but that isn't usually the reason they develop.   They typically develop from forming the balls or reballing late in fermentation.  The gluten is strong to the point of having a hard time reincorporating (or meshing) back into the neighboring dough.  Consequently, when you open the dough, it opens unevenly no matter how hard you try.  The fix to this is an easy one.   Dough tearing is also a sign of very strong gluten development.   It can also be from opening cold dough too quickly but I doubt this was the case.  So maybe ball a bit sooner next time to resolve these issues.  Despite the gluten maybe being a little on the strong side, you were still able to open the dough evenly and create a very round and uniform looking pie.   You are meticulous in your attention to detail like most members here.  Overdeveloping of gluten strength isn't all bad though.  It has it's benefits as well as it is a key factor in giving us that crispiness that we enjoy.  As long as its balance with hydration and the other factors.   I once made a very crispy crust with a light and airy crumb with a dough that was 80% hydration and mixed in the KA on speed 10 for around 10m.  The gluten had to be overmixed and over developed to offset the high hydration levels and I still got a great result.  So again the whole balance thing. 

Also lowering your oven 10 degrees won't have much of an affect on the pizza.  For now keep your oven set up, oven routine, bake time and temp the same.   Work on the dough instead.  It's good where it's at, but we are looking for more. 

Offline the1mu

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #368 on: February 13, 2016, 10:36:24 AM »

Aric, thin spots are usually mistakenly blamed on not properly opening the dough but that isn't usually the reason they develop.   They typically develop from forming the balls or reballing late in fermentation.  The gluten is strong to the point of having a hard time reincorporating (or meshing) back into the neighboring dough.  Consequently, when you open the dough, it opens unevenly no matter how hard you try.  The fix to this is an easy one.   Dough tearing is also a sign of very strong gluten development.   It can also be from opening cold dough too quickly but I doubt this was the case.  So maybe ball a bit sooner next time to resolve these issues.  Despite the gluten maybe being a little on the strong side, you were still able to open the dough evenly and create a very round and uniform looking pie.   You are meticulous in your attention to detail like most members here.  Overdeveloping of gluten strength isn't all bad though.  It has it's benefits as well as it is a key factor in giving us that crispiness that we enjoy.  As long as its balance with hydration and the other factors.   I once made a very crispy crust with a light and airy crumb with a dough that was 80% hydration and mixed in the KA on speed 10 for around 10m.  The gluten had to be overmixed and over developed to offset the high hydration levels and I still got a great result.  So again the whole balance thing. 

Also lowering your oven 10 degrees won't have much of an affect on the pizza.  For now keep your oven set up, oven routine, bake time and temp the same.   Work on the dough instead.  It's good where it's at, but we are looking for more.

Great thanks for all the advice! Your input is so invaluable!

Just to clarify, I went straight from mixer to ball to fridge and there it sat for 24 hours before I pulled it out and let it come to room temp. So, in that case, I should mix it less? Is that the solution that will prevent the tearing?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #369 on: February 13, 2016, 11:08:32 AM »
Yes.   But I am suprised to hear that you had some thin spots even after balling the dough right away.   You didn't reball it at anytime after that correct?  In general and what works well for me is to under mix the dough using the mixer and finishing the dough by hand with a series of stretch and folds followed by a short 10-15m rest period.  I'll typically do 3-4 cycles of this before I even give it a lengthy bulk rest. 

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Offline the1mu

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #370 on: February 13, 2016, 11:57:24 AM »

Yes.   But I am suprised to hear that you had some thin spots even after balling the dough right away.   You didn't reball it at anytime after that correct?  In general and what works well for me is to under mix the dough using the mixer and finishing the dough by hand with a series of stretch and folds followed by a short 10-15m rest period.  I'll typically do 3-4 cycles of this before I even give it a lengthy bulk rest.

Yep. No reball and no bulk rest. I immediately divide and ball and into containers.

Based on your comment in the mixers thread, would I maybe be better served to only use the stir setting? Or is it possible I overworked it in the balling phase??

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #371 on: February 13, 2016, 12:05:09 PM »
Correct.   I don't think it's possible to overwork the gluten by balling the dough, especially since it's in the early stage of fermentation.   

Offline the1mu

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #372 on: February 13, 2016, 12:18:08 PM »
Well, I will see how my next batch turns out. I still think it could be user error, but what you're saying makes sense! I'll just keep trying and see what happens.

Offline the1mu

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #373 on: February 14, 2016, 10:13:23 AM »

Correct.   I don't think it's possible to overwork the gluten by balling the dough, especially since it's in the early stage of fermentation.

How much could the flour itself contribute to the problem?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: That elusive yet "Perfect" pie
« Reply #374 on: February 14, 2016, 11:14:27 AM »
In general and AOTBE, flours with a higher protein content develop gluten more readily, will absorb more water, and will require less mixing. 

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