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Author Topic: baking soda without acid ingredients (for chinese crullers/youtiao)  (Read 384 times)

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Offline calzonemaker

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Hi all,

recently I made chinese cruller with this recipe :

100% high protein flour
65% water
1.6% salt
1.6% baking soda
0.6% onion powder
0.8% chicken powder
6% shortening

Autolyses 70% of flour with all of the water for 2 hours. then mixed remaining ingredients (shortening is the last thing added). then rest for 7 hours.

The dough was formed to long slab 0.6 cm thick and 10 cm wide. Cut into pieces. Stack two pieces, then fried.

The dough expanded well in the oil.

I just wondering, there was no acid ingredients to react with baking soda. But the dough could expand. How did that happen?

Other chinese cruller recipe ask for "alum" (sodium aluminium phosphate?) and ammonia, but I dont have them in my kitchen.

Offline avogadro

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Baking soda undergoes thermal decomposition at temperatures above 80 degrees celsius, forming sodium carbonate, water, and CO2. The water (turning into steam) and CO2 are what are leavening your dough.

Offline Rolls

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^^  A member with the username Avogadro probably knows a thing or two about temperature and gas expansion. :)


Rolls
Getting old, memory is the second thing to go......Can't remember the first.

Offline calzonemaker

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Baking soda undergoes thermal decomposition at temperatures above 80 degrees celsius, forming sodium carbonate, water, and CO2. The water (turning into steam) and CO2 are what are leavening your dough.

thanks for the explanation. but maybe the decomposition of baking soda is not complete right? thats why many recipe call for acids or baking powder instead.

Offline avogadro

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thanks for the explanation. but maybe the decomposition of baking soda is not complete right? thats why many recipe call for acids or baking powder instead.

The problem most recipes have is that they won't undergo decomposition until it's too late. A cake for example, is comprised with a high % of water and will very slowly gain temperature and will only really reach above 80c towards the end of cooking. That's why they have acids and/or baking powder. Baking powder, most of the time, it's twice acting. So it reacts once with the acid to create bubbles but also contains some sort of alum (like you mentioned in your first post). This also reacts but mainly when it's heated up, so you get twice acting baking powder.

edit: just to further clarify, that's why this works in this recipe. You have very thin strips of dough that are being put into oil that's easily over 80c - maybe at least double that.

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Offline calzonemaker

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The problem most recipes have is that they won't undergo decomposition until it's too late. A cake for example, is comprised with a high % of water and will very slowly gain temperature and will only really reach above 80c towards the end of cooking. That's why they have acids and/or baking powder. Baking powder, most of the time, it's twice acting. So it reacts once with the acid to create bubbles but also contains some sort of alum (like you mentioned in your first post). This also reacts but mainly when it's heated up, so you get twice acting baking powder.

edit: just to further clarify, that's why this works in this recipe. You have very thin strips of dough that are being put into oil that's easily over 80c - maybe at least double that.

thank you again, avogadro.

still on this to topic, I want to increase the volume of those crullers.

I have tried increasing dough hydration from 58% to 65% and it worked. I suppose that more water means more steam. But the dough is more sticky with increasing hydration.

what food grade chemical that I can use to increase the dough ability to expand?


Offline avogadro

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thank you again, avogadro.

still on this to topic, I want to increase the volume of those crullers.

I have tried increasing dough hydration from 58% to 65% and it worked. I suppose that more water means more steam. But the dough is more sticky with increasing hydration.

what food grade chemical that I can use to increase the dough ability to expand?

I would probably advise revising technique over adding conditioners at first. Look into bassinage/double hydration. So you knead as normal at a lower hydration then work in additional water after your gluten is developed. Other simpler things like autolyse can also help you with handling dough. Aside from that, there isn't really anything that can replace god-honest experience.

Answering your actual question though, an emulsifier is probably the route you want to go down. DATEM if you can find it is pretty much the industry standard emulsifier, although hard to find and started to be replaced by cleaner label options. Lecithin is a very easy to find, soy or sunflower based is the most popular. Start at 0.2% pure lecithin powder and go from there. Lecithin also aids water absorption which will allow you to up the hydration ever so slightly than where you were at. SSL, GSM, mono/diglycerides, CSL. All options that you can search up and look at their specific properties, ease of using, price, accessibility, and figure out from there where you want to go.

Some other random things to look at might be using a higher protein flour/adding VWG, adding pectin up to 2% (depending on type of pectin used) can lead to an increase in bread volume, or using certain reducing agents to potentially increase volume (inactivated yeast is probably the easiest for you to deal with).

Offline foreplease

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Baking powder, most of the time, it's twice acting. So it reacts once with the acid to create bubbles but also contains some sort of alum (like you mentioned in your first post). This also reacts but mainly when it's heated up, so you get twice acting baking powder.

Thanks for another great explanation. Specifically, it’s my understanding that the first reaction you mention is the reason it sometimes does not work out well to hold doughs, such as cookie dough, for too long before baking. Is that correct?
-Tony

Offline avogadro

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Thanks for another great explanation. Specifically, it’s my understanding that the first reaction you mention is the reason it sometimes does not work out well to hold doughs, such as cookie dough, for too long before baking. Is that correct?

If the recipe relies on the first reaction for leavening, then yeah holding it for too long or over mixing it can obviously lessen the amount of CO2 that's captured by the dough. Desserts aren't my best area so take what I say with at least 5% salt  :-D

edit: that isn't to say that it's best to cook things like cookie dough as soon as possible. There are quite a few cookie doughs out there that are specifically formulated and vastly benefit from fridging for a while to let things mix and hydrate.

Offline Yael

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calzonemaker, your youtiao look very good!!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

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Offline foreplease

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Re: baking soda without acid ingredients (for chinese crullers/youtiao)
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2020, 11:44:42 PM »
If the recipe relies on the first reaction for leavening, then yeah holding it for too long or over mixing it can obviously lessen the amount of CO2 that's captured by the dough. Desserts aren't my best area so take what I say with at least 5% salt  :-D

edit: that isn't to say that it's best to cook things like cookie dough as soon as possible. There are quite a few cookie doughs out there that are specifically formulated and vastly benefit from fridging for a while to let things mix and hydrate.
I understand. Thank you.
-Tony

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