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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1180 on: January 25, 2015, 06:54:54 PM »
Morning Norma....these dough balls went in to the fridge immediately after balling on Thursday.. That was after a four hour bulk ferment during which there were three stretch and folds. I took them out of the fridge yesterday morning and they sat on the counter for about eight hours prior to opening. The dough temp was 68 when I opened them and they opened beautifully.

I guess the other take away for me is that the Caputo Metro A 00 does indeed work OK at lower temperatures as advertised. I'm anxious to try the new Caputo New York style flour.

Good evening Bob!

Thanks for telling me your work flow method with your dough balls.  I am glad to hear you like the Caputo Metro A 00 flour.  That would be good if you could try the new Caputo New York style flour.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1181 on: January 25, 2015, 06:56:48 PM »
Saw the discussion on blisters ...

Here is one pie with oil brushed on crust from last night and another without ... I know its not easy to see but the brushed oil one has more blistering than the other.

edit - both pies 48hrs at 61F

Jeff,

Good to hear you achieved more blistering when you brushed the one pie with oil on the crust.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1182 on: January 25, 2015, 07:02:34 PM »
Yesterday, I decided to look at the photos in the posts of the emergency dough recipes as set forth in the collection of emergency dough recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.msg71576#msg71576. What I was looking for were emergency doughs that, when made into pizzas, had blistering on the rims of pizzas. To qualify as an "emergency" dough for definitional purposes, I meant a dough that was made at room temperature and ready to be used in about four hours.

Although some of the styles do not have distinct rims but are rather on the flat side, such as the Chicago thin and cracker style pizzas, to be thorough in my study I decided to look at all of the styles anyway except for the Sicilian style pizzas that, because they are baked in pans, do not have a distinct rim as are common, for example, with the NY, Neapolitan and American style pizzas. I even looked at the Chicago deep-dish pizzas even though they do not have rims. As it turned out, those pizzas did not exhibit blistering anywhere on the crusts that I could see. It may well be that the high fat/oil quantities used in such pizzas inhibits any kind of blistering, especially given the short fermentation windows.

My study of the photos did not find any emergency dough that produced a crust with a blistered rim. In a few cases I saw blistering of rims but, upon further analysis, I found that they were not made from emergency doughs as I defined them but rather from doughs that had been fermented for more than four hours, usually considerably longer, even days. The posts for such doughs were usually entered to make a point or for a member to suggest improvements. For the most part, the rims of the pizzas I looked at tended to be quite smooth with few surface irregularities other than some occasional bubbling or charring. And some crusts were lighter in color than others. But no blistering.

I can't say that I was surprised not to find an emergency dough (as I defined it) that yielded a crust with a blistered rim. Even though emergency doughs use a lot of yeast (more than normal) and water that is quite a bit warmer than normal, such doughs rarely approach a condition of exhaustion from a fermentation standpoint where they are on their last legs. One can usually punch the dough balls down, sometimes even more than once, and they will start their rise again. They also have little opportunity to yield acids in sufficient quantity to affect the finished crusts because of the short fermentation window.

There may well be doughs that were fermented longer than four hours but less than the roughly three days of cold fermentation that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, so there is that gap where doughs might exist that did yield crusts with blistered rims. As one example I found this morning, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14486.msg144461#msg144461. In that example, the fermentation was two days (cold fermentation) but the pizza was baked part of the time under the broiler. Whether that affected blistering I have no idea. Also, no oil was brushed on the rim of the skin.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to study all of those photos of emergency doughs, (of various styles of pizzas) to see if you could find any blistering on the rim crusts.  That must have taken you awhile to do that.

I guess I am out of luck in trying to get consistent blistering on one day cold fermented dough crusts.

Norma

Offline CaptBob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1183 on: January 25, 2015, 07:32:52 PM »
Good evening Bob!

Thanks for telling me your work flow method with your dough balls.  I am glad to hear you like the Caputo Metro A 00 flour.  That would be good if you could try the new Caputo New York style flour.

Norma

Just FYI....I got an email from Mark at Brick Oven Baker today saying he spoke with the Caputo importer  who told him that the Caputo New York style flour is a couple of months out yet....
Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1184 on: January 25, 2015, 08:16:25 PM »
Just FYI....I got an email from Mark at Brick Oven Baker today saying he spoke with the Caputo importer  who told him that the Caputo New York style flour is a couple of months out yet....

Bob,

Thanks for that information!

Norma

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1185 on: January 26, 2015, 04:36:53 PM »
A few little blisters on this. It was KAAP, 72%HR, 18 hour preferment (40% of the formula flour, 100%HR) + 24 hours CF. Cornicione painted with EVOO. Baked at 550F convection.

More on the pizza here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36346.0
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 05:24:58 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1186 on: January 26, 2015, 05:42:28 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to study all of those photos of emergency doughs, (of various styles of pizzas) to see if you could find any blistering on the rim crusts.  That must have taken you awhile to do that.

I guess I am out of luck in trying to get consistent blistering on one day cold fermented dough crusts.

Norma
Norma,

It wasn't all that bad going through all of the emergency dough posts. In some cases, there were no photos. But I did get slowed down from time to time when I magnified some of the photos to better see blistering of the rims if I couldn't tell by the unaided eye.

Today, I started going through all of the posts that I could find through forum searches that deal with blister(s) and blistering. There are several hundred of them total but many are of threads and posts that we are already aware of, including many from this thread and the related blister threads that have been mentioned in this thread. But I am undertaking this project slowly because of its size and scope. But one thing that occurs to me that you might try at market is the simple test of coating some of the rims of your pizzas with oil to see if those with rims coated with oil produce different results than those without oil, including their relative propensities to produce blistering. I am beginning to think that heat plays a role in blistering, including the use of a broiler, convection heating or an oven like the Black Stone oven, but these measures do not apply to what you are trying to do at market.

Peter


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1187 on: January 26, 2015, 07:07:51 PM »
Norma,

It wasn't all that bad going through all of the emergency dough posts. In some cases, there were no photos. But I did get slowed down from time to time when I magnified some of the photos to better see blistering of the rims if I couldn't tell by the unaided eye.

Today, I started going through all of the posts that I could find through forum searches that deal with blister(s) and blistering. There are several hundred of them total but many are of threads and posts that we are already aware of, including many from this thread and the related blister threads that have been mentioned in this thread. But I am undertaking this project slowly because of its size and scope. But one thing that occurs to me that you might try at market is the simple test of coating some of the rims of your pizzas with oil to see if those with rims coated with oil produce different results than those without oil, including their relative propensities to produce blistering. I am beginning to think that heat plays a role in blistering, including the use of a broiler, convection heating or an oven like the Black Stone oven, but these measures do not apply to what you are trying to do at market.

Peter

   I wonder what brushing with water might do?
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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1188 on: January 26, 2015, 07:44:39 PM »
I wonder what brushing with water might do?
Bob,

Good point. That is something she might also try. Maybe misting the rim of a pizza or two might be the way to go on this. It may be that oiling or misting a rim with water is a facilitator or contributor to blistering rather than being a sole cause of it. But even to be a facilitator or contributor to blistering, it may not work with a dough that has undergone only one day of cold fermentation.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1189 on: January 26, 2015, 09:08:14 PM »
A few little blisters on this. It was KAAP, 72%HR, 18 hour preferment (40% of the formula flour, 100%HR) + 24 hours CF. Cornicione painted with EVOO. Baked at 550F convection.

More on the pizza here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36346.0

Craig,

Very nice blistering on your rim crust!   8)

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1190 on: January 26, 2015, 09:39:50 PM »
Norma,

It wasn't all that bad going through all of the emergency dough posts. In some cases, there were no photos. But I did get slowed down from time to time when I magnified some of the photos to better see blistering of the rims if I couldn't tell by the unaided eye.

Today, I started going through all of the posts that I could find through forum searches that deal with blister(s) and blistering. There are several hundred of them total but many are of threads and posts that we are already aware of, including many from this thread and the related blister threads that have been mentioned in this thread. But I am undertaking this project slowly because of its size and scope. But one thing that occurs to me that you might try at market is the simple test of coating some of the rims of your pizzas with oil to see if those with rims coated with oil produce different results than those without oil, including their relative propensities to produce blistering. I am beginning to think that heat plays a role in blistering, including the use of a broiler, convection heating or an oven like the Black Stone oven, but these measures do not apply to what you are trying to do at market.

Peter

Peter,

Good to hear that is wasn't all that bad going through all of the emergency dough posts.  That would have taken me a long while.   

I understand why you would undertake this project slowly because who really know how to do that with different dough formulations and different ovens.  I know sometimes I look at members posts and see some blistering on their pies, but they would be hard to find if members don't mention something about blisters/blistering on the rim crusts.  I don't know if we wil ever find out how to produce blistering consistently, but it should be fun trying.

I can try coating of oil on some of the rim of the pizzas tomorrow if I go to market.  I was undecided today about whether or not I would go to market because of the snow.  After my granddaughter returned home from work this afternoon she said the roads weren't that bad.  I then called market to see if I could stay after normal hrs. tonight to make doughs and so forth.  Wouldn't you know it that it started snowing heavily on the way to market.  When I left market all the roads were really slippery.  It is supposed to stop snowing by 7:00 AM tomorrow morning, so I will decide then what I am going to do about going to market.  This was the snow on my van when I went to leave market tonight.  The parking lot was almost clear of snow when I arrived at market.

   I wonder what brushing with water might do?

Bob,

Your idea is good too!  I have a mister at market so I could try that on a rim crust.  I just worry about getting the dough skin stuck to the wooden peel if I mist the rim and miss the rim some.

Norma

Offline CaptBob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1191 on: January 26, 2015, 09:47:07 PM »
A blister experiment tonight. This dough was from the same batch as the weekend so it spent two extra nights in the fridge, and 7 hours on the counter today at RT. The rim was brushed with oil with the exception of a slice size portion which had none. This portion was also without pepperoni to use as a reference point. It appears to me that this portion did not brown as well nor did it appear to have any blistering. In the first three pics I tried to show the difference in the two areas. The last pic is of an area that was oiled pre bake. To me at least I prefer the oiled portions with the enhanced browning and blistering. But your mileage may vary........

Edit: Forgot to add this was baked in the BS at 680 for 3 minutes.
Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1192 on: January 26, 2015, 11:19:54 PM »
A blister experiment tonight. This dough was from the same batch as the weekend so it spent two extra nights in the fridge, and 7 hours on the counter today at RT. The rim was brushed with oil with the exception of a slice size portion which had none. This portion was also without pepperoni to use as a reference point. It appears to me that this portion did not brown as well nor did it appear to have any blistering. In the first three pics I tried to show the difference in the two areas. The last pic is of an area that was oiled pre bake. To me at least I prefer the oiled portions with the enhanced browning and blistering. But your mileage may vary........

Edit: Forgot to add this was baked in the BS at 680 for 3 minutes.

Bob,

Your blister experiment was very good!  When I get my Blackstone up and running again I will try some experiments.  You seem to have the blistering down pat!  ;D

Norma

Offline CaptBob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1193 on: January 26, 2015, 11:27:22 PM »
Thank you Norma. How's the "Storm of the Century" going??
Bob

Offline norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1194 on: January 27, 2015, 06:08:56 AM »
How's the "Storm of the Century" going??

Bob,

We were lucky that we didn't get the brunt of the northeast snow storm.  I feel sorry for the people that are getting hit with the Nor'easter full blast.  :( Schools in our area are either delayed or cancelled for today.  It is still snowing in our area but just flurrying and is that is supposed to end by noon today. 

Market probably will be really slow today.  I am going in a little later as far as I know.  I told my new helper not to come today.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1195 on: January 27, 2015, 09:11:21 AM »
CaptBob and Norma,

To demonstrate how difficult it is to unravel and decipher the secrets surrounding the creation of micro-blisters, here is an example of a case where a member, jeffereynelson (Jeff), made a dough that was fermented for just under 24 hours, with half of the fermentation at room temperature and half in the refrigerator, and where the pizza made with the dough was baked at a high temperature (presumably around 650-700 degrees F) in a Black Stone oven, and where he achieved, by his own words, "very good blistering":

Reply 67 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18456.msg269067#msg269067.

Since Jeff did not mention coating or brushing the rim of the unbaked pizza with oil, nor did he mention such use for any of the several other experiments in the same thread, I will assume that he did not coat the rims with oil. Jeff did use oil in the dough but we know from the work of other members, such as chickenparm, that it is not necessary to use oil in a dough to achieve micro-blistering. In Jeff's case, the amount of oil in the dough in any event was small, at around 1%.

From CaptBob's results, it seems safe to say that oiling the rim of his unbaked pizzas did contribute to micro-blistering so it will be interesting to see if Norma achieves similar results using a dough that has considerably less total fermentation than either Jeff's dough (a good part of his fermentation occurred at room temperature) or CaptBob's dough (with two extra nights in the fridge and 7 hours on the counter at room temperature), and where she will not have the benefit of a very high bake temperature and top heat as are available with a Black Stone oven. "Heat" and "Blistering" do go together after all, which I suspect is why the expression "blistering heat" came into being.

Jeff's experiment as discussed in Reply 67 is interesting for another reason. Although he was able to make and ferment a dough in less than 24 hours, which is a period that Norma would like to use at market, he did not come across as being ecstatic with the overall results even with the micro-blistering. In his own words, this is what Jeff said:

I noticed some very good blistering from the pizza and that is something I like. It was a little tough for my own taste. I like a bit of crunch but for the pizza to tear easily. Hopefully extra fridge time helps with this. We will find out. The bottom was great, and it had about the perfect integrity I look for in slice characteristics. The dough was quite flavorless as expected.

So, micro-blistering per se is not necessarily the end all and be all that some people might want or expect. To be truly happy or satisfied, micro-blistering alone is unlikely to be enough.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1196 on: January 27, 2015, 10:45:34 AM »
If you look at Bob's second picture in reply 1191 above in full resolution, I think you can see something interesting. It looks (to me) like there are partially formed/broken blisters on the non-oiled portion - some look like they dried out and shattered and others look like they dried out and the gas escaped before they could get much size leaving a rough appearance.

Some factors that seem to encourage blistering include: oil in the dough, oil on the dough, and a high humidity/steam environment. All of these, it seems, would work to slow the drying of the surface of the dough. The theory I'll propose for discussion is that in order for blisters to form, the surface of the dough needs to stay sufficiently "wet," and therefore expandable, long enough for the bubble to reach its maximum size without exploding. There is a network of bubbles all throughout the dough - including right under the skin. If these are able to expand without rupturing, they become blisters. I'm guessing that the bubbles under the surface in the non-oiled portion of the pie broke through the dried out skin almost immediately, leaving that rough look behind.  Along these lines, I think the similarity of the look between a crust painted with oil before baking and a dough baked in a high-humidity environment is also very interesting.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 11:07:30 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1197 on: January 27, 2015, 11:06:29 AM »
Adding to my comment about the similarity in appearance of a dough painted with oil before baking and a dough baked in a high humidity environment, here is an example. Neither of these doughs contains oil in the formula. Both are in the low 70's HR. Both baked at about 550F. One is oiled and the other baked under cover.

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Offline CaptBob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1198 on: January 27, 2015, 11:18:01 AM »
Craig.....I tried very hard to make the cornicione a constant size around this pie. It appears that I didn't get quite the oven rise on the section without oil. You got great rise on your mozza style pies which you did oil. So...do you think improved oven rise might also be a byproduct of oiling?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 11:25:44 AM by CaptBob »
Bob

Offline jvp123

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #1199 on: January 27, 2015, 12:42:24 PM »
A blister experiment tonight. This dough was from the same batch as the weekend so it spent two extra nights in the fridge, and 7 hours on the counter today at RT. The rim was brushed with oil with the exception of a slice size portion which had none. This portion was also without pepperoni to use as a reference point. It appears to me that this portion did not brown as well nor did it appear to have any blistering. In the first three pics I tried to show the difference in the two areas. The last pic is of an area that was oiled pre bake. To me at least I prefer the oiled portions with the enhanced browning and blistering. But your mileage may vary........

Edit: Forgot to add this was baked in the BS at 680 for 3 minutes.

Bob was the flame on low at launch at 680 and I assume no chauflector?  Any doming or shuffling involved?  I like how relatively even this looks in terms of browning and how nicely cooked the toppings look.  My last experience at 680 was a bottom that was done in three minutes but the rim and top wasn't so I had to start doming and turning up the flame etc.  Just trying to figure out what the difference is ... hmmm.  I was going to try and cook at lower heat next time but I'd prefer not having to do that if its something else that could be the issue.

also - how do you apply your oil so that it evenly coats your rim without it touching the peel or smearing into the sauce.  I tried it once and i found it was kinda hard to apply evenly and was concerned it the peel got any oil on it the dough could stick.  I also used one of those larger modern rubber tipped brushes so maybe an old school fine bristled brush would be better/less crude.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 01:20:25 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

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