Author Topic: Trying to duplicate Buffalo, NY style pizza (Read 73868 times)

shmigga · « **Reply #180 on:** February 21, 2020, 11:53:11 AM »

Quote from: aSliceofHeaven on February 21, 2020, 11:38:57 AM

Hey, for the cheese are you using Sorrento (Galbani) whole milk? Thanks again

Yes, I use the restaurant grade whole milk mozzarella (Now labeled Galbani) and I get it from Restaurant Depot. I've found that the stuff they sell in the grocery stores is too moist/wet. I think it makes a huge difference if you can get access to the restaurant quality cheeses.

Ogwoodfire · « **Reply #181 on:** February 22, 2020, 11:21:58 PM »

Sauce to the edge of the pizza is a Buffalo thing. Many more places used to use seasoned full sheet pans in the 70s, 80s and even 90s and sauced to the edge, but places scrapped the seasoned sheet pans for cheaper aluminum round pans over time, places closed, and only a few of the original Buffalo style pizza places remained. The good ones still use a seasoned sheet pan, shred their own mozzarella (100% WM low moisture mozz) and cut pepperoni off the stick, there’s an attachment for automatic sliders that a few places still use. You have to remember when you are talking original Buffalo style pizza you are talking Bocce. Leonardis and Imperial were spin offs of Bocce in the 70s when the style was born. Prior to the 70s and Bocce Club, Buffalo style pizza wasn’t much different than any style parlor pizza outside of NYC, New Haven, etc. Any place can now use redpack tomato and cup and char pepperoni but what makes it Buffalo style really is the moderate thickness, being cooked on seasoned sheet pans getting a bit oval with some crazy looking and not having any sort of cornicone. So many places are just cheap imitations

Ogwoodfire · « **Reply #182 on:** February 22, 2020, 11:31:48 PM »

Even La Nova puts out pictures with no cornicone. I’ve seen local menus where the pizza goes right to the edge in the pictures but not reality. There are also a bunch of places that still have no crust and top right to the edge, mattinas, Francos, Picasso, and I can remember dozens more places that are gone from my childhood that also topped right to the edge. People are using the round aluminum pans with Crisco now which makes the pizzas stick when you top to the edge. Having toppings right to the edge has to be a characteristic of Buffalo style pizza otherwise it’s really no different than any Midwest parlor pizza just with cup and char. So maybe there are only a handful of places still doing it the right way but just because it became a lost art out of laziness and cost savings doesn’t change what the style is supposed to be. I realize hundreds of local places have a cornicone and use round aluminum pans now but I can honestly say I’ve never had one that has impressed compared to the few places that do it the old way. The way pant places do it now is just an inferior way to do it technique and flavor wise.

shmigga · « **Reply #183 on:** February 23, 2020, 12:03:07 AM »

Quote from: Ogwoodfire on February 22, 2020, 11:31:48 PM

Even La Nova puts out pictures with no cornicone. I’ve seen local menus where the pizza goes right to the edge in the pictures but not reality. There are also a bunch of places that still have no crust and top right to the edge, mattinas, Francos, Picasso, and I can remember dozens more places that are gone from my childhood that also topped right to the edge. People are using the round aluminum pans with Crisco now which makes the pizzas stick when you top to the edge. Having toppings right to the edge has to be a characteristic of Buffalo style pizza otherwise it’s really no different than any Midwest parlor pizza just with cup and char. So maybe there are only a handful of places still doing it the right way but just because it became a lost art out of laziness and cost savings doesn’t change what the style is supposed to be. I realize hundreds of local places have a cornicone and use round aluminum pans now but I can honestly say I’ve never had one that has impressed compared to the few places that do it the old way. The way pant places do it now is just an inferior way to do it technique and flavor wise.

Totally disagree with you on taking the toppings out to the edge. IMO, the places that take the cheese and sauce to the edge are overrated and aren't very good. Especially Imperial, Bocce, and La Nova. Picasso's used to be good but at least the location in West Seneca now uses a conveyor belt oven. Last time I had it, I almost threw up it was so disgusting. Franco's is also pretty bad.

Most those places you mention are northtown's pizza shops. Is that where you grew up? I'm originally from the southtown's and always thought that the pizzeria's in the northtowns were no good. I grew up going to places like Pasquale's, Blasdell Pizza, Nino's, Abbott Pizza, Molino's, LT's. IMO, all of those place are way better (at least they were) than anything you could from Bocce or La Nova.

Ogwoodfire · « **Reply #184 on:** February 23, 2020, 09:13:45 AM »

Yes I grew up in the northtowns but there are places in the south towns that do it as well Mainly imperial which once again spun off from Bocce. Now the point is Bocce Club is the definition of Buffalo style pizza. The places that spun off in the 70s defined the style, yes cup and char and the pasty sauce all spun from this wether they use a seasoned sheet pan or not. Now of course taste is subjective but there’s much more technique and flavor to using a seasoned sheet pan properly. My first Job was working for the Sacco family Bocce I’ve heard all the stories and history Bocce club is the originator of a buffalo pizza. I personally wouldn’t ever eat Pasquales, Bella, Abbot ever again but I grew up eating REAL buffalo pizza. Why would a place like la Nova Print menus with toppings right to the edge and not do it in reality? It’s because even they know this is a characteristic of the style. I can agree with you one one thing, really none of these pizzerias are good anymore. I find the best example of Buffalo pizza is Mattinas on Sheridan Drive, proper ingredients and technique but even they have off days. If Buffalo style pizza is just unseasoned round aluminum pans is using redpack and cup and char really even a style, IMO that’s nothing, just standard American parlor pizza.

Ogwoodfire · « **Reply #185 on:** February 23, 2020, 09:38:40 AM »

Overall we’re gonna have to agree to disagree but my point is the version of pizza we have seen in Buffalo over the last 20-25 years is a watered down version of what the style originated as. Call Bocce, Imperial overrated that’s fine I agree, but the techniques and ingredients they laid out are what everyone emulated in some way or another. There’s a timeline to all of this, I did a lengthy research project in college which included research and interviews, pizza here has changed over time, so what defines the style? It can’t just be cup and char pepperoni, the techniques have been lost over time, and that’s my point. At least a few places remain true to the sheet pan, sauce to edge, half or whole pizza. The only reason these things were forgotten is to cut corners and save money. You statement saying northtowns pizza is no good is just blasphemy we’re talking about places using the exact same ingredients with little variation, at least a few of these places still know what technique is.

shmigga · « **Reply #186 on:** February 23, 2020, 03:22:54 PM »

I now understand why you have a different understanding of what Buffalo style Pizza is. I've always thought that Buffalo had two styles of pizza. The more common slightly thicker than thin pizza with a nice crispy cornicione, and the thicker, almost sicilian style pizza with little to no cornicione. You are really missing out on not eating Pasquale's. There was a time where the pizza wasn't as good, but they've gotten better. I agree on Abbott (last time I had it a few years back, it was very bad), back when they were in their original spot and when a large was 18", they're pizza was great. The funny thing is that I would often visit my friend over in South Buffalo who literally lived right down the street from Imperial and they would never eat there. I would always ask them why and they would always say that their sauce was just tomato paste and the pizza wasn't any good...so we'd get pizza from Abbott instead (this is going back to the mid 90's). If you ask my parents what good Buffalo style pizza is, they would say they loved Costa's in West Seneca. It's funny how you say you grew up eating "REAL" Buffalo pizza, that's really just your opinion. I grew up eating REAL Buffalo pizza too! Those pictures you posted of La Nova actually show a small cornicione.

I'm not really sure how you can say that other's have emulated Bocce or Imperial since they themselves don't even use true cup and char pepperoni like 90% of the other area pizzerias. I think it's just two different but very similar styles in one region. I don't think it has anything to do with cost cutting. I do agree that pizza has changed over the years, some better, some worse.

matermark · « **Reply #187 on:** February 23, 2020, 03:44:20 PM »

I better go get some popcorn!

Back in the 1960's & earlier 1970's Frank's on Bailey north of Lovejoy sold a lot of halfers, maybe the only pizzeria in my neighborhood that I can think of that sold half pizza like Bocce. Yet my neighborhood was maybe better known for Pizza John's Knotted Bar on Lovejoy and his dandelion pizza. He was also known for putting his cheese on TOP.

Later when I worked at Poochie's, every sheetpan in the place was as black as coal!

Ogwoodfire · « **Reply #188 on:** February 25, 2020, 07:32:09 AM »

Some interesting stuff there guys. There is a place called Bailey Ave pizza that is doing things the old way now.
Worth a look but my point remains doing things this way used to be more common and is the now forgotten as much of the origins of Buffalo style pizza, while surely not all places did this it was common and made the style unique. In regards to the paste sauce most places are using a heavy sauce like red pack or Bonta and the are watering it down from there to some degree. The pepperoni Bocce and many others also use is a combination of pre cut cup and char and pepperoni cut off the stick from Margherita or Battistoni, these are collagen cased pepperoni which do cup and char but often are cut oblong in someway and do not cup and char as much as the pre bagged version for some reason but they are the same pepperoni. My comment in regards to cost cutting was more about saving money through efficiency, you can fit a lot more 17” Round pans per deck than you can 18x26 sheet pans and that is why places began to make the switch or opened never using the sheet pans.

matermark · « **Reply #189 on:** February 25, 2020, 08:41:46 AM »

Quote from: Ogwoodfire on February 25, 2020, 07:32:09 AM

Some interesting stuff there guys. There is a place called Bailey Ave pizza that is doing things the old way now.
Worth a look but my point remains doing things this way used to be more common and is the now forgotten as much of the origins of Buffalo style pizza, while surely not all places did this it was common and made the style unique. In regards to the paste sauce most places are using a heavy sauce like red pack or Bonta and the are watering it down from there to some degree. The pepperoni Bocce and many others also use is a combination of pre cut cup and char and pepperoni cut off the stick from Margherita or Battistoni, these are collagen cased pepperoni which do cup and char but often are cut oblong in someway and do not cup and char as much as the pre bagged version for some reason but they are the same pepperoni. My comment in regards to cost cutting was more about saving money through efficiency, you can fit a lot more 17” Round pans per deck than you can 18x26 sheet pans and that is why places began to make the switch or opened never using the sheet pans.

So is that the place we were wondering about somewhere near the Expressway overpass on the west side of Bailey? I remember as a teen going for a ride with a friend to pick up a pizza up on Bailey, I was too young to drive back then but vaguely remember it would have been north of Delevan. It wasn't Poochie's---Poochie's moved from the old Frank's (Bailey between Lovejoy & Bogardus) to Bailey around Alma St, a couple blocks north of St. Gerard's. Many, many years ago there used to be a speed shop (hi-perf auto parts store) on the corner... Mernan Chevrolet was a couple blocks up from St Gerard's on the right---all gone now... the mystery place was past Mernan's on the other side of the street...

Ogwoodfire · « **Reply #190 on:** March 04, 2020, 07:41:37 AM »

Hard to say how long this place has been open. It’s is a close to where you mention and does use many of the traditional Buffalo techniques.

BUFtoPDX · « **Reply #191 on:** May 07, 2020, 11:00:11 AM »

Hello Shmigga! I've been following this thread for a few days now in my attempts to recreated home pizza. The pictures you posted most recently look just about perfect for me. I do have a few questions.
-After mixing, did you let it rise before you refrigerated overnight?
-If i want to cold ferment for 72 hours, do I just let it rise indefinitely? Do I need to punch it down at any point?
-When you take out of the fridge do you let it come to room temp before stretching or do you stretch cold?
-How long do you let rise before you top it and cook it?

I appreciate all of your help and contributions!

Quote from: shmigga on February 18, 2020, 08:33:15 AM

For mixing, I put all of the ingredients in the bowl and mixed on the lowest speed for about 8 minutes. After it's done, I oiled the ball and put it in the fridge overnight.

For baking, preheat the oven and stone to 495 degrees. Cover the pan with shortening then a little bit of olive oil. Cook the pizza for about 12 minutes then remove from pan and place directly on stone for 30-45 seconds. In this case, the dough was still cold from being in the fridge.

Hope that helps.

cola__st · « **Reply #192 on:** May 20, 2020, 05:19:12 PM »

Hey there-
Canadian that has been shut out of America by the pandemic. Previously, I had been going across into Buffalo weekly for pizza and wings. I can’t find a proper pie on my side of the border.
When the border closed, I knew it was gonna be a while, so I started trying to make it myself... or at least as close as I could get.
I’ve been following this thread, as well as the one posted by OG Woodfire. It’s been full of a lot of great info.
Having been unable to get exact ingredients I’ve had to work with what I can come across.
I have made several pies since this started- but the one I did last night was the first one that felt like I was at Bocce Club or something. Working loosely off the recipes/preparations in this thread, but making some modifications to taste, I’m very happy with my results.
Feels good to make something like this from scratch.
Sorry if this is a lot of pics.

matermark · « **Reply #193 on:** May 21, 2020, 01:38:36 PM »

I am a Buffalonian and haven't bought a Buffalo pizza with mushrooms on it in probably over 30-40 years. Back then many places used canned mushrooms which when cooked turned a dark olive green with black edges! I don't know what the Buffalo Big Three used, fresh or canned, but many corner pizzerias used canned.

cola__st · « **Reply #194 on:** May 21, 2020, 08:11:11 PM »

Quote from: matermark on May 21, 2020, 01:38:36 PM

I am a Buffalonian and haven't bought a Buffalo pizza with mushrooms on it in probably over 30-40 years. Back then many places used canned mushrooms which when cooked turned a dark olive green with black edges! I don't know what the Buffalo Big Three used, fresh or canned, but many corner pizzerias used canned.

The mushrooms were for my wife- haha. I just got better pics of that one.
Here’s the second pie without.

Went 550 for about 8 minutes. Don’t currently have a stone to deck it.
I think it needs like.. one more minute or so in the oven. Get a bit more melt on that cheese. Crust and everything was nice.

1moreSlice · « **Reply #195 on:** May 22, 2020, 03:15:57 PM »

I am trying to make a great Buffalo style pizza as well. I am quite surprised that nobody has mentioned what I think was the best Buffalo pizza by far, Leonardi's. Unforunately they closed on 12/29/19, well I guess not so unfortunate since what has happened since. I think they closed because the founders were getting old and nobody in the family wanted to do it anymore . Whenever I went there, there was always a line out the door. Myself and many people I know were shocked and heartbroken when they closed.

I like others in the thread feel that Bocce's has been living off the reputation for a very long time. They really haven't been consistent in 20 years. Where you make get a 1/2 chance of your Bocce's pie being a homerun, at Leonardi's it was better than 9/10.

So that is why I am here. I recently bought a stone and a bunch of flour and I am going to get to work. I made a NY style a couple weeks ago that turned out pretty good.

I do have one question though. Should I be using hi-gluten flour for these pies? I having much cooking experience but I am a pizza making novice. I am using all purpose flour currently but I was going to order a 50 lb bag of the hi-gluten if it makes a big difference.

matermark · « **Reply #196 on:** May 22, 2020, 03:52:15 PM »

A bread flour is a good start if you don't wanna go all in on some All Trump or Sir Lancelot. You can add Vital Wheat Gluten to raise your flour to 14-14.5%. I bought a 25lb bag of 12.5% and added VWG when I divided up the bag into individual 16oz zipper-lock bags, now hi-gluten bags ready to go... I don't have the #s but there is a calculator or a link to one on this site, I'm still on the original bags from over a year ago, maybe 9 or 10 left...

matermark · « **Reply #197 on:** May 22, 2020, 03:56:56 PM »

Quote from: cola__st on May 21, 2020, 08:11:11 PM

The mushrooms were for my wife- haha. I just got better pics of that one.
Here’s the second pie without.

Went 550 for about 8 minutes. Don’t currently have a stone to deck it.
I think it needs like.. one more minute or so in the oven. Get a bit more melt on that cheese. Crust and everything was nice.

Looks good, maybe a couple more minutes to golden the cheese and burn the pepperoni cup edges...

cola__st · « **Reply #198 on:** May 24, 2020, 05:16:05 PM »

Quote from: matermark on May 22, 2020, 03:56:56 PM

Looks good, maybe a couple more minutes to golden the cheese and burn the pepperoni cup edges...

I’ve got two different types of pep on here. Battistoni, which I found through a butcher here that’s importing direct from Buffalo. Only available pre-sliced, but that’s what ya see cupping on the pizza. I also have some Venetian from Hamilton on there, which I’m cutting right from the stick. Less cup on that stuff.
I did a couple pies with straight Battistoni pep, which all curl up nicely- but I find the taste to be a bit strong in large amounts. The Venetian is a bit milder and mellows it out a bit.

cola__st · « **Reply #199 on:** May 31, 2020, 11:50:06 PM »

Gave it another go yesterday. Very happy with this one. Really tasted like a pie right out of Buffalo.