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Author Topic: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix  (Read 4176 times)

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Offline gschwim

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Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« on: May 23, 2014, 11:09:04 PM »
Tom,

I've read in a few places that the "real" Pizza Napoletana restaurants add some American or Canadian bread flour to their Italian 00 flour.  Do you know, or can you find out, the percentage composition of the two flours?

Thanks.

Gene Schwimmer

Offline markmc

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 07:02:41 AM »
Hi Tom:

I think that is completely true. I would recommend either All Trumps high gluten flour or Sir Lancelot flour made by King Arthur.

Mac

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 07:04:41 AM »
Hi Gene

My apologies I just woke up. Sorry for not getting your name right.

Mac

Offline gschwim

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 12:28:28 PM »
Hi Gene

My apologies I just woke up. Sorry for not getting your name right.

Mac

No problem.  I often have trouble getting my name right, myself, before I've had my first cup of coffee.

But you misunderstood my question.  I want to know the ratio of the two flours, Italian and American.  Does Da Michele or whoever use a 50/50 mix of 00 flour and American flour?  75% 00 and 25% American?  65/35?  Is there a typical ratio they all use or is does each pizzeria have its own blend?

And, regardless of what ratio the Italians use, I would be interested to know if there is a particular ratio that Tom considers to be the optimum?ne

Gene

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2014, 12:58:23 PM »
Gene, I don't own a shop or know the answer to your specific question, but, FWIW, I have found a 50/50 mixture of 00 Caputo pizzeria and high gluten flour to be my current, and for the past year, favorite  with about 61-62% hydration.

Mark
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 04:26:28 PM »
I'm guessing that you won't find any All Trumps, KASL, or any other American flour in da Michele's kitchen.

I think what you are referring to is an old practice of adding ~15% Manitoba (W400+) to low W (~180) Italian flour. This is basically what you have now, ready to go, in Caputo Pizzeria (W280-310). You will see some NP places blend Pizzeria with Rinforzato (W300-330).
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2014, 05:23:47 PM »
Gene,

My recollection is the same as Craig's. In fact, you can see the Caputo Manitoba flour at http://www.molinocaputo.it/index.php?lang=en. And, if you do a Google search of Italian flours, you will find other examples from other Italian millers. Craig is also correct that sometimes pizza operators blend the Pizzeria flour with the Rinforzato flour (aka rosso, or red). That is what Naples 45 in NYC did for years for its VPN-approved Neapolitan style pizza dough and may still be doing. I mentioned this practice at Reply 2171 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg275540;topicseen#msg275540. Also, as noted at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4488.msg37690;topicseen#msg37690, Marco (pizzanapoletana) reported several years ago that Di Matteo in Naples (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29969.msg299683#msg299683) used a blend of Manitoba and Rosso (Rinforzato).

To read a bit more about the W values that Craig mentioned, you might take a look at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4986.msg42545#msg42545. If you are able to find flours with protein contents that correspond to the W values, you might be able to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to determine a mix of flours that might give you a specific fermentation duration. In that vein, protein-W values might be correlated by looking at the spec sheets for Caputo flours at http://caputoflour.com/.

Peter

Offline gschwim

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2014, 10:15:56 PM »
Who needs Tom Lehman when you've got Pete?  Thanks - much more info than I expected and a big help.

I'm guessing that the reason for adding a little high protein flour is to make the dough more forgiving and easier to stretch without tearing, so I thought I would give it a try.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2014, 10:06:12 AM »
Gene,

Thank you for the compliment but with all due respect to Tom, this forum has been a hotbed of activity on the Neapolitan style of pizza going back many years, to before 2005, when very few people were paying attention. And, apart perhaps from the Italian pizza making forum, and thanks to Marco and newer members like sub with his posts on Neapolitan style ovens, there may not be a greater repository of information on the Neapolitan style anywhere else on the Internet. In fact, if you look at the different pizza making boards on this forum, and you exclude the general pizza making board, which embraces threads that do not fit neatly elsewhere on the forum, you will see that the Neapolitan style is second only to the NY style in terms of new posts. In a sense, this forum reflects what has been going on in the real world as far as the Neapolitan style is concerned. In my case, the combination of having been on the forum since 2004 and remembering enough to be able to use the forum's search features to find things, and having read all of Marco's posts several times over the years, I was able to pull up the posts I referenced.

Since you mentioned the possibility of blending 00 flour and bread flour, that reminded me this morning where I did just that. I described that episode at Reply 44 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=986.msg9367;topicseen#msg9367. Also, you might already know or be interested to know that Dom Demarco at DiFara's has been combining 00 flour and high-gluten flour for many, many years, using 75% 00 flour and 25% high-gluten flour, by volume. The above examples might serve as a guide for you to start with if you decide to try blending 00 flours with other flours.

Peter

Offline gschwim

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2014, 11:09:13 AM »
Pete,

I definitely understand and appreciate the contributions of so many site members over the years.  Indeed, one of the valuable services that you perform is to include links - which invariably are right on point - to the these earlier posts, saving me hours of searching.

As someone who's lived in NYC for almost 40 years, that last thing I would do is argue with Dom and his success, so I'll definitely try the 75/25 00/bread flour mix.  But given your results with an 85/15 mix, I will want to try that, too.  I'm sure that one of those will be right or need only minor adjustments.

Do you know what brand of high gluten flour Dom uses?  I'm guessing that, like most NYC pizzerias Dom uses All Trumps.  I'm lucky, through my commercial real estate practice, to work with several pizza operators who will (within reason, of course) give me all the All-Trumps I want.

Gene

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2014, 04:39:16 PM »
Do you know what brand of high gluten flour Dom uses?  I'm guessing that, like most NYC pizzerias Dom uses All Trumps.  I'm lucky, through my commercial real estate practice, to work with several pizza operators who will (within reason, of course) give me all the All-Trumps I want.

Gene
Gene,

From what I can tell, for certain ingredients, Dom goes to different sources from time to time. At the time I spoke with him, he was using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and the All Trumps high-gluten flour. But at one time I heard that he was using the Delverde 00 flour and at another time I heard that he was using the Colavita 00 flour. I don't know what flours he is currently using but I don't think it will make a big difference for your purposes.

Peter

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2014, 07:30:27 PM »
Gene,

I tried some different combinations of Caputo flour with other flours in this thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17128.msg166741#msg166741 I wished I would have tried some of those flour combinations in a higher heat oven like a WFO or the Blackstone.

Norma

Offline gschwim

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Re: Pizza Napoletana - 00 flour and bread flour mix
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2014, 10:29:47 AM »
Gene,

I tried some different combinations of Caputo flour with other flours in this thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17128.msg166741#msg166741 I wished I would have tried some of those flour combinations in a higher heat oven like a WFO or the Blackstone.

Norma

I decided to go with a mix of 75% Caputo and 25% All Trumps because, here in NYC, Caputo is readily available in 1 kilo bags at Todaro Brothers (they also do mail order if you have trouble getting Caputo where you are - http://todarobros.com/gourmet-specialty/gourmet-grocery/caputo-oo-flour.html) and all of my pizzeria real estate customers use All Trumps.

I used this recipe:  http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/07/basic-new-york-style-pizza-dough.html

Or at least, that was the idea!  Instead of a food processor, I used my KitchenAid with "C" shaped dough hook.  Dough seemed dry at first, but after about four minutes, it became so wet that I had to start adding additional flour for another 10 minutes at least, until the dough reached the "Peter Reinhart point" where just a little dough stuck to the bottom of the bowl.  Maybe I added another 1/4 cup, all told, so that 75/25 ratio is no longer exact.

Thanks, most likely, to the Caputo, the mixed dough felt very soft and "poofy," more so than my recollection of what a pure All Trumps dough would be.

Three dough balls in the fridge now.  I'm planning to bake one tonight and maybe the other two over the next two days to see if longer fridge time makes any noticeable difference in flavor.

Gene

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