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Author Topic: WFO Construction - stuck on two things  (Read 21479 times)

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Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2014, 10:13:59 PM »
Right. I have been through this string.  This is the one i referenced when I said they were using terra cotta parts I have never seen and couldn't likely access up here in Canada. Maybe in (south) Philly though...

Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2014, 10:17:00 PM »
Right. I have been through this string.  This is the one i referenced when I said they were using terra cotta parts I have never seen and couldn't likely access up here in Canada. Maybe in (south) Philly though...

All that is, is one kind of material.  You can easily build the same kind of vent with brick, fab one out of metal, cut panels from large dimension clay flue,  cast panels.....
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Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2014, 10:22:24 PM »
Ok. Would have to rip up some of what I have done?
It is not clear to me from the pics what insulates the roof of the oven. Since you have a big vent running over roof.  Is the floor of vent insulated? IE can I leave my ceramic blanket in place and if yes what do I cover it with? If I rip it up do I "move it" ie more likely replace it, with blanket over top of the vent?

Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2014, 10:39:19 PM »
Ok. Would have to rip up some of what I have done?
It is not clear to me from the pics what insulates the roof of the oven. Since you have a big vent running over roof.  Is the floor of vent insulated? IE can I leave my ceramic blanket in place and if yes what do I cover it with? If I rip it up do I "move it" ie more likely replace it, with blanket over top of the vent?

No, I wouldn't.  You want insulation surrounding your oven.  If you build a Neo vent and leave that section of the dome uninsulated outdoors, you'll be losing plenty of heat without a live fire.  It gets more and more complicated going that way.   Don't forget, you can't veneer directly to that kind of flue either...so there's additional thickness added to the vent beyond the veneer.

Keep it simple.  Front vent it or omit the flue and let the oven vent directly out of the oven opening.
When we build, let us think that we build forever.
John Ruskin

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2014, 10:55:36 PM »
Keep it simple.  Front vent it or omit the flue and let the oven vent directly out of the oven opening.

I agree. If you choose the front vent, I would urge you to support it similar to a Neapolitan vent and avoid the long throat you see under most front vents which significantly impair oven access.
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Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #45 on: July 12, 2014, 11:16:59 PM »
.....avoid the long throat you see under most front vents which significantly impair oven access.

Just to avoid confusion to new builders...

You mean avoid a building a deep vent.   
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2014, 11:21:27 PM »
Just to avoid confusion to new builders...

You mean avoid a building a deep vent.

I'm not sure what the proper name is - about a foot deep with bricks on both sides that restrict the angle the peel can enter the oven. It's the most obvious way to support the vent, but functionally it's sub optimal.
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Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2014, 11:37:42 PM »
I'm not sure what the proper name is - about a foot deep with bricks on both sides that restrict the angle the peel can enter the oven. It's the most obvious way to support the vent, but functionally it's sub optimal.

You are talking about the vent area, the vent arch supports the flue and chimney.

 Most of the lot of the Pompeii builds are very deeply vented, over 12".  That is sub optimal on large diameter ovens...on small ones, (less than 36") it's not as much of  a factor because the range of usable space is limited with a live fire going.  And, I don't think it matters too much on a non commercial oven.   It helps to flare the opening too.   
When we build, let us think that we build forever.
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Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2014, 02:33:01 AM »
I think I understand what you are saying. I have direct access to the inside of the oven right now. If I build a tunnel then I won't  have the same accesss to the right and left side of oven by the walls. The oven floor is 43 inches wide so I could lose quite a bit of this. However, I only have 5-6 inches beyond the current landing area to extend it anyway. This means I don't have much room to build support for chimney/flue, which is the design problem. So, not sure, if I use that space, how much I restrict lateral movement but easy to look tomorrow.

In any event the chimney and flue can only be built properly if backed up over the oven rather than out in front of the oven. By doing this I have to strip insulation from the top of the oven and compromise heat.

So, seems to me I can't move it back, and i cannot build an adequate tunnel, so we end up where I did today. Forgetting about the chimney and starting the outer coating.

The back to back angle iron idea is good because it would help get the most out of forward placement without a tunnel compromising as much on left/right access. Sort of cantilevering forward the fascia of the chimney to leave the room behind it for the flue without having to go onto the oven roof.

Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2014, 06:51:03 AM »
I think I understand what you are saying. I have direct access to the inside of the oven right now. If I build a tunnel then I won't  have the same accesss to the right and left side of oven by the walls. The oven floor is 43 inches wide so I could lose quite a bit of this. However, I only have 5-6 inches beyond the current landing area to extend it anyway. This means I don't have much room to build support for chimney/flue, which is the design problem. So, not sure, if I use that space, how much I restrict lateral movement but easy to look tomorrow.

In any event the chimney and flue can only be built properly if backed up over the oven rather than out in front of the oven. By doing this I have to strip insulation from the top of the oven and compromise heat.

So, seems to me I can't move it back, and i cannot build an adequate tunnel, so we end up where I did today. Forgetting about the chimney and starting the outer coating.

The back to back angle iron idea is good because it would help get the most out of forward placement without a tunnel compromising as much on left/right access. Sort of cantilevering forward the fascia of the chimney to leave the room behind it for the flue without having to go onto the oven roof.



I hadn't said, but your brick supports should be half brick if you did them.  Without measurements I'm guessing, but it looks like you would only slide the flue back a couple inches to accommodate an 8" flue....less if you set the angle on brick supports.  Just sayin.  I think you should run with your current idea.....less is more sometimes.
And never build a tunnel, build a vent.
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Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2014, 03:51:40 PM »
Bingo. The half brick thing got me going again.  Also, using wetter vermicrete and slapping it on. Made a bit of a breakthrough I think.

Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2014, 03:54:51 PM »
When i seat the flue on the top of oven should I put a layer of refractory under it to stabilize it?

Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2014, 04:31:27 PM »
When i seat the flue on the top of oven should I put a layer of refractory under it to stabilize it?

That would help plumb it up, yes.

Nice job on the picture orientation too.
When we build, let us think that we build forever.
John Ruskin

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2014, 07:48:23 PM »
That would help plumb it up, yes.

Nice job on the picture orientation too.

 ^^^

It can be done!!!
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2014, 08:17:52 PM »
Tried making a brick arch. Its a mess - will probably tear it out tomorrow. I bought what I thought was refractory mortar and got refractory cement. A premixed beige paste. It ended up all over the brick faces. I will try it all over tomorrow - and take more time to use a proper form and spacers etc...

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Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2014, 09:20:18 PM »
Tried making a brick arch. Its a mess - will probably tear it out tomorrow. I bought what I thought was refractory mortar and got refractory cement. A premixed beige paste. It ended up all over the brick faces. I will try it all over tomorrow - and take more time to use a proper form and spacers etc...

Slow and steady, slow and steady.   
When we build, let us think that we build forever.
John Ruskin

Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2014, 08:18:28 AM »
What was the adhesive you mentioned to attach the granite veneer? You said to paint it on the stone. Is it a mortar additive or something applied separately?
 
am I better to use stone chunks as large as possible or break them into smaller pieces ( more mosaic like). Obviously the latter will accomodate the curves better, and may be easier to handle as well as adhering better.  Larger might look better - not sure....Maybe a combination of larger at bottom working up to smaller as I go up?

Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2014, 08:47:29 AM »
What was the adhesive you mentioned to attach the granite veneer? You said to paint it on the stone. Is it a mortar additive or something applied separately?
 
am I better to use stone chunks as large as possible or break them into smaller pieces ( more mosaic like). Obviously the latter will accomodate the curves better, and may be easier to handle as well as adhering better.  Larger might look better - not sure....Maybe a combination of larger at bottom working up to smaller as I go up?
It's an acrylic additive, loads of brands out there.  I use acryl 60....when I even use acrylic..., big box places sell some made by quickcrete.  It'll all do the job, you're just prebonding  the stone.   Mix up the bonding agent with Portland to the consistence of a milkshake and use a brush to paint it onto the stone, then bed it into you mortar.  Get full contact...no voids.

The only thing I can tell you with your stone work is large pieces won't form a nice curve.  Everything else is up to you as the installer.    As far as starting large and going to small, that may throw it out of balance visually in such a small space.  Then again, I've seen that done well and it looks cool.   It's really all up to what you think looks good.


Let that vermicrete dry first though or you will create problems.
When we build, let us think that we build forever.
John Ruskin

Offline SC

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2014, 08:56:43 AM »
Thanks. I was thinking I need to let the vermicrete dry for a week?

Should I be bedding the granite flags in portland as well? I had bougt several bags of a mortar mix (with sand in it). recommended for laying field stone, bricks or blocks. I have both portland and this other stuff

Offline stonecutter

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Re: WFO Construction - stuck on two things
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2014, 09:15:18 AM »
Thanks. I was thinking I need to let the vermicrete dry for a week?

Should I be bedding the granite flags in portland as well? I had bougt several bags of a mortar mix (with sand in it). recommended for laying field stone, bricks or blocks. I have both portland and this other stuff

At least a week would be good...longer would be better.  It depends on the weather really.

Do not use straight Portland and sand.   That is not proper mortar...to me it's concrete without the large aggregate.  Your bagged mix is probably Type N or S.  Either one will work, though I don't like or use bagged mixes because the sand is generally too fine.   But that depends on the plant that made it.....it should be fine for what you are doing.  Otherwise get a quarter ton of mason sand and a couple bags of type S...mix at 3:1

Stone mortar is drier than brick mortar too...make it too wet and it will compress without supporting the stone, and bleed water will stain the work.   Bagged mixes take more water than loose mason sand from the yard, so add water slowly as you mix it.


« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 09:17:31 AM by stonecutter »
When we build, let us think that we build forever.
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