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Author Topic: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza  (Read 90440 times)

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Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2014, 10:09:25 AM »
Here is a review of sorts of Casey's pizza and another persons description of it.
http://www.passion-4-pizza.com/caseys-pizza.html
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2014, 10:10:20 AM »
Jake,

I have now concluded my review and offer the following comments.

To begin with, the first thing I noticed about the ingredients list you provided is that water is not included. That leads me to believe that the ingredients are in the form of a premix that is used at the store level and where all that has to be done is to add the water (often temperature adjusted in accordance with the time of year). The next thing I noticed is that the flour is described as "PIZZA FLOUR - ENRICHED BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED FOLIC ACID" (I believe that there should be a comma after MALTED). But if you read further down the ingredients list, potassium bromate is listed as an ingredient. That leads me to believe that Casey's is using a bleached, malted and bromated flour that is enriched only by the addition of folic acid. If that is correct, that combination would rule out all-purpose flour because all-purpose flour is never bromated (although one might request it from the miller). The folic acid is there because since the mid-90s the FDA has mandated that folic acid be added to flours (there are tons of articles on the reasons). Usually, there are other enrichments to flour, such as the standard vitamin and iron enrichment packages, but I have seen flours that are bleached, malted and bromated but unenriched and to which one might conceivably add folic acid. There aren't many such flours but one that I recall was a General Mills/Pillsbury flour called XXXX (or 4X). I could not find it at the GM website but it is like this one, http://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=132942000, but without the vitamin and iron enrichment package. If the unrenriched 4X flour is still sold today, all the preparer of the Casey dough ingredients, or maybe the miller, would have to do is add the folic acid. The 4X flour is a bread flour with a protein content of 12.6%.

You are also correct that there is more sugar than soybean oil in the Casey's dough. That is also true of the Papa John's dough, although I suspect that the Casey's sugar and soybean oil quantities from a baker's percent standpoint are lower than used at PJ.

Next in the Casey's ingredients list (after the soybean oil) is whey. Whey is usually added to a dough in order to get increased crust coloration without adding sweetness to the finished crust. In my own experience using whey (baker's grade whey) in pizza dough is that it affects the texture and feel of the dough, and that the textural effects are also present in the finished crust. In Casey's case, the crust coloration may be somewhat subdued even with the whey because the dough is put through a sheeter and then docked. For such skins, the bottom heat during baking will usually pass through the skin and turn the moisture in the sauce into steam rather than being concentrated on the bottom of the crust and promoting increased coloration. Even with the long bake time, I suspect that the crust coloration will be modest. In your case, should you proceed with further Casey's clones, you will definitely want to use whey--the baker's grade variety.

Many of the remaining ingredients are a veritable chemical factory. The L-cysteine hydrochloride is an ingredient that is used to shorten the mix time and also to increase the extensibility of the dough. I suspect that the L-cysteine also makes it easier to sheet the skins and to reduce snapback. I might also add that L-cysteine and whey are sometimes combined together in a commercial product. One such example is a product called PZ-44. That is a product that used to be sold by Foremost Farms but that product line was sold to a company by the name of Agropur. However, the spec sheet for that product as it existed at Foremost Farms can be seen at http://web.archive.org/web/20111124052707/http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf. While it is possible that Casey's is using a product like PZ-44, I tend to doubt it. I believe that the company that prepares the Casey's dough ingredients adds the whey and L-cysteine ingredients separately in order to have better control over the finished product.

Most of the remaining dough conditioners are uncommon ones in my experience, so I cannot offer you much in the way of explanation as to how they work, and interact, in a pizza dough. However, you may want to read the following descriptions of those ingredients:

Dicalcium phosphate: http://inrfood.com/ingredients/313432

Calcium sulfate: http://inrfood.com/ingredients/1761

Calcium peroxide: http://inrfood.com/ingredients/3131

Tricalcium phosphate: http://inrfood.com/ingredients/338

Magnesium carbonate: http://inrfood.com/ingredients/7495

As you can see from the above descriptions, there are a variety of contributions provided by the ingredients, including calcium fortification, dough strengthening and textural effects, bleaching, anti-caking, and improved extensibility.

It is also quite possible, and maybe even likely, that the above dough conditioners play a large role in achieving the crust characteristics you noted. The only way you will be able to tell is to make a clone Casey's dough without those conditioners but using the whey since whey contributes to the final texture of the finished crust. The basic ingredients would be a bread flour (preferably bleached, malted and bromated) with a protein content of 12.6% (or thereabouts), water, whey (baker's grade), sugar, soybean oil, salt and yeast.

I also looked at the Casey's nutrition information at http://www.caseys.com/sites/default/files/CaseysNutritionalInfo_20130313.pdf. Based on the information given there, if a medium Casey's pizza has six slices, and assuming that Casey's uses shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese as you noted, I estimate (based on Cholesterol numbers) that a basic medium Casey's cheese pizza uses anywhere from 7-10 ounces of the shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese. It is hard to be precise because different brands have different nutrient values and because of rounding factors. However, a good proxy might be the Sargento shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese as shown at http://www.sargento.com/products/25/sargento-artisan-blends-shredded-whole-milk-mozzarella-cheese/. For that product, based on the Cholesterol number, one might use about 8.75 ounces of that cheese for a medium Casey's cheese pizza. Based on the Sodium numbers and using the Sargento product as a proxy, and assuming six slices, and considering that there is also salt in the pizza sauce, I estimate that a medium Casey's cheese pizza might use around 1/2 teaspoon of salt in the dough.

To get a better handle on weights, you might sometime consider purchasing a medium Casey's cheese pizza and weighing it. You should ask that the pizza not be cut, and, if possible, weigh the pizza in the parking lot of the Casey's store where you purchased it (to minimize weight losses in transit to your home). Once you have that weight, and knowing how much cheese might be used, you can play around with dough weights to at least get into the ballpark. That will then allow you to compare your baked pizza weights with the Casey's numbers.

Peter








Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2014, 11:03:19 AM »
Peter, I really appreciate all of your help.  I believe you are right, they definitely are using a premix and adding water.  I don't think that was the case 15 years ago but I may be wrong.  Casey's has changed and expanded exponentially since then, and I never did pay a lot of attention to the actual making of the dough.  I will at some point order a medium cheese and weigh it.  I can't tell you how much your insight has helped me. Not just today but on the posts I've read going back several years on many many topics, and I truly appreciate your consideration in my attempt to make my daughter her favorite pizza!  I will have to get some whey and bread flour and continue experimenting!
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2014, 11:06:33 AM »
This is a list of ingredients for a cheese pizza.

PIZZA FLOUR - ENRICHED BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED FOLIC ACID), SUGAR, SOYBEAN OIL, WHEY, SALT, YEAST, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% DOUGH CONDITIONERS (L-CYSTEINE HYDROCHLORIDE, DICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, CALCIUM SULFATE, CALCIUM PEROXIDE, POTASSUIM BROMATE, TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, MAGNESIUM CARBONATE)


Did you copy this from somewhere or re-type it? I ask because it looks like you copied it but potassium is spelled wrong.
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Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2014, 11:27:54 AM »
That was copied directly from Casey's website.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2014, 01:41:05 PM »
Peter, I really appreciate all of your help.  I believe you are right, they definitely are using a premix and adding water.  I don't think that was the case 15 years ago but I may be wrong.  Casey's has changed and expanded exponentially since then, and I never did pay a lot of attention to the actual making of the dough.  I will at some point order a medium cheese and weigh it.  I can't tell you how much your insight has helped me. Not just today but on the posts I've read going back several years on many many topics, and I truly appreciate your consideration in my attempt to make my daughter her favorite pizza!  I will have to get some whey and bread flour and continue experimenting!
Jake,

Glad to help. I tend to be a sucker for projects like this one where I have an ingredients list and nutrition information and the possibility for other hard facts. That is how I see and learn new things and am forced to use my brain cells more frequently. Unfortunately, the Casey's nutrition information is a mixed bag. For example, while the nutrient numbers appear to be exact and not rounded, the weights per serving size are not given, making it difficult to determine the weights of entire food products, like an entire Casey's medium pizza in this case. Also, the Saturated Fat numbers and the Sugars numbers are not given, making it more difficult to determine how much oil and sugar are used to make the dough and sauce. The whey also includes sugars that ideally should be taken into account.

At least in your case, you can buy a Casey's pizza or two and take the weights (I forgot to mention earlier that you should also measure the sizes of the pizzas). The nearest Casey's to me according to their website is about 229 miles away.

Another thing you might look into is whether one of your local Casey's will sell you a dough ball. That would give you the weight, and there are tests that can be performed on a sample of the dough to try to determine the hydration of the dough. You might also ask for a sample of the sauce on the side, saying that your daughter likes to dip the crust rims in sauce. With a sauce sample, you can at least get an idea as to the salt and sweetness levels, and maybe detect the seasonings used. However, different sensitivities of the palate to saltiness and sweetness will usually produce different comparisons.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2014, 01:48:14 PM »
That was copied directly from Casey's website.

I see this sort of thing quite often, although usually it is with smaller businesses. When I see it, I wonder what else might be wrong, or worse, inadvertently left out.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2014, 02:46:52 PM »
Jake,

Here is another example of a GM flour (Balancer) that is bleached, malted and bromated but unenriched: http://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=132783000. That particular flour happens to be a high-gluten flour with a protein content of 14.2%.

Peter

Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2014, 04:30:13 PM »
Peter, to my family's delight  I have done some more reconnaissance.  I decided to go to the stand alone pizza location.
There many are many things still the same, and many different.  The sheeter looked the same and I now know it is a somerset.  I saw the familiar industrial size cans of nonstick spray and a pin style docker.  I will say I am sure we did not have bags of "Dusting Flour" with the caseys logo on it.  We also never had pans with sheeted docked dough stacked on the counter under plastic waiting to be dressed.  We never cut off dough or sheeted, and docked until the order came in.  The oven looked wider to me than the ones in the gas stations and I could not see the front of it so I can not comment on whether it is the same as all of the other locations or that it was at 465F.  I bought a medium cheese for $9.99, and a Large pepperoni for $10.00.  Casey's found out a long time ago that people around here primarily order larges.  In fact to encourage that, they give you a little corner of the lid of each large to collect and when you get ten, you get a free pizza.  Now everyone orders the large, and they are in fact no longer 16 inches, they measure exactly 14.  The medium was 12.
The medium cheese weighed 26.75 oz in the box, minus empty box weight of 6 oz, for a total 20.75 oz pizza.  The Large pepperoni weighed 37.5 oz, minus box of 7.5 ounces, total pizza weight of 30 oz.  I went ahead and let them cut it, the large was 12 slices and the medium 8, Much smaller slices than we used to cut.
That being said this was the crispiest darkest caseys pizza I have ever had and not like the ones we used to make, similar but off.  Too crispy on the bottom, too brown on top, and when i pulled the toppings off of one slice the tops side of the crust was still slightly under cooked.  Not doughy but almost raw.  I believe copious amounts of spray were used in the same perforated pans, like a pan pizza, there was a lot of oil in the cardboard take out boxes.  Also the docking holes were more pronounced and open, not the same springy dough I used to make, they would have closed.  I believe the oven maybe not have been at the standard 465 but a hotter quicker bake, but I do not know as I could not see the front. 
There is now signage that says made fresh daily.  I wonder if they have abandoned cold ferment dough for a new premix.  It seems less doughy and thinner, which would make sense to me as if there were less spring in the dough the sheeter would more effectively thin it out.
I would like to say My wife and I used to go get pizza from the Original Casey's store on E 14th and Broadway, because it was the closest to our $300 rental house in an industrial park area.  We were dirt poor newlyweds, we couldn't really afford it and it was the best Pizza there ever was.  To quote J. Kenji López-Alt of serious eats "Pizzas past always look better through pepperoni-tinted glasses."
Don't get me wrong it was still good and between the two pizzas there are only three slices left.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 04:22:58 PM by Jakew81 »
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Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2014, 04:59:58 PM »
I forgot to mention that I may try to get a dough ball at some other point in time, as the young man that took my call, brought out my pizza, and rang me up, seemed to be working by himself and had some difficulty doing so.  The sauce however is very plain and straightforward.  It is thin puree with a little oil, sugar, salt, "Italian seasoning" ( Oregano, thyme, marjoram, basil, rosemary, and, sage), and some onion powder.  It is actually served on the side if you order bread sticks.  My wife says it is "Very Tomato-y" in that the spices are not strong, but very subtle.  Not too sweet, not too salty. Very plain.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 06:05:03 PM by Jakew81 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2014, 06:14:55 PM »
Jake,

Do you know if Casey's sells pizzas by the slice? The menu indicates that the breakfast pizza can be sold by the slice, but no others.

Peter

Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2014, 07:02:01 PM »
In the morning they sell either bacon or sausage breakfast pizza out of a rotating self service case.  It has a cheez whiz like sauce with slightly wet scrambled eggs (they keep cooking on the pizza) under the cheese.  It is very good.  From about 10:30 on they sell pepperoni and sausage one topping slices.  Sometimes they sell Hot sausage, Canadian bacon, or Cheese by the slice as well.  They have two kinds of sausage by the way.  Both are little round precooked pebbles of meat, one in very mild and unoffensive, the other can be a little bit hot.  The slices are wider than the slices I got today, like the 8 slices per 14" large I had stated before.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 07:04:40 PM by Jakew81 »
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Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2014, 08:02:21 PM »
that`s about what i thought...go ahead and use this dough without the par bake...it`s going to be much better than the last.  ;)

but look....you want to mix the dough for like only 2 or 3 min....it will look lumpy...sorta like cottage cheese....that`s a good thing jake...as it develops it will smooth out...this is how you make lighter airy structure pizza dough rather than tight wonder bread type dough....which is what i think you are after here, right?   :chef:

ChicagoBob, you were right this is too wonderbread like!  If I was going for a soft dough this was it.  I will definitely mix it less next time!
Edit( Ok maybe not too much for my daughter. She loved the ring of wonerbread aroung the edge!)


Ok we now know that this is not authentic but here is how dough attempt #2 turned out.

Flour (100%):    360.75 g  |  12.73 oz | 0.8 lbs
Water (59.5%):    214.65 g  |  7.57 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (.5%):    1.8 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Salt (1%):    3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):    14.43 g | 0.51 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.18 tsp | 1.06 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Total (166%):   598.85 g | 21.12 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.10506

This absolutely still needs more sugar and oil, and will try with higher protein flour and whey someday.    But overall I am happy at stab in the dark number 2.  I used much less bench flour and actually I think this would have probably come out better on the screen but it did well in the perforated pan.  Turned out easily on the bench.  I did not degass the edges as would have been the case a little more if it had been run through a sheeter.  We did dock the center with a fork. 
I used contadina puree base with with a little oil, sugar, salt, "Italian seasoning" ( Oregano, thyme, marjoram, basil, rosemary, and, sage), and some onion powder then thinned some more with water.  It tasted spot on before it went on but as we were out of regular pepperoni, my wife chopped up turkey pepperoni and put it under the cheese.  It gave the sauce an off taste in the finished product.  She agrees that it was the Turkey pepperoni.  Gooey melty cheese, still the same costco low moisture part skim about 12 minutes at 475F.  Last two pics are mine compared to one from Casey's facebook.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 09:50:58 PM by Jakew81 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2014, 03:15:26 PM »
Jake,

I have some additional random thoughts.

Yesterday I sent an email from the Casey's website in which I asked them to explain what their nutritional information means for a "slice" from a Medium size pizza. I think you might have been right when you said six slices since I can't make the numbers work with eight slices. I don't know if I will get a reply. I had to select one of their stores, which I did arbitrarily since there was no general contact mechanism on the website to contact Casey's, either by email or telephone.

I also sent an email to the FDA yesterday to get clarification of the "less than X % rule". Usually, it can take several days to hear back from them.

I also played around with the Casey's nutritional information on the assumption that a Medium pizza has six slices, and I am inclined to think that a medium (12") dough ball weighs 12 ounces and that a large (14") dough ball weighs around 16 ounces. For a 16" pizza, such as the one you made, the corresponding dough ball weight would be around 21 ounces. That is about what you used. Of course, if my assumptions are wrong, the above numbers will be wrong also.

Under normal circumstances, with the Casey bake temperature and bake time you originally mentioned, it is possible for the weight losses during baking to be high. For example, a number like 15% might seem crazy high yet be about right. A pizza that bakes for 12-14 minutes, even at 465 degrees F, can lose a fair amount of weight.

On the matter of the Casey's dough being made fresh daily, that doesn't automatically rule out cold fermentation. The Casey's inventory of dough balls could still be a one or two day rolling inventory. Maybe even three days, although I would be surprised if that is the number simply because of the Casey's convenience store setting. They are not trying to be an artisan pizza operator using long, cold fermentation. Of course, it would help to know what Casey's is actually doing.

For your additional information, here is another shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese that comes very close to the Casey's description you provided recently: http://www.shopwell.com/stella-cheese-mozzarella-whole-milk-low-moisture-shredded/cheese-shredded/p/7580502900

Peter
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:51:11 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2014, 04:19:29 PM »
Peter, I was discussing this matter at work today and a coworker stated they have a good friend that works at casey's.  I asked her to inquire how much a large dough ball weighs.  She texted him and he quickly replied "18 oz".  I then asked her to ask how much a medium dough ball weighs and how much water goes in to how much dough mix.  He did not respond.  She expects that he will when he finds out.  If so we may have a man on the inside :)
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Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2014, 08:12:40 PM »
Peter, thanks again for all your help. I looked at both of the cheeses you posted a little closer today. I also looked at the Kirkland's Costco cheese I have been using. I thought on the freshly baked pizzas they were very similar.  Especially since the biggest difference was 1 gram of fat per ounce, and the Stella cheese you posted says whole milk, but then the ingredient list also says part skim, that they were close enough.  I did some comparisons to the two left over pizzas side by side today. I will post more about this later.  However one of my favorite things about Casey's is the way it reheats in the microwave. It is almost certainly better, in my opinion, reheated in the microwave.  Sick, I know.  But it is good.  I reheated two 1 inch squares from my pizza and the actual Casey's pizza for ten seconds side by side on the same plate at the same time.  It was obvious to me there was much more fat in the Casey's cheese and it made a serious difference. The taste In
the cheese is essential.  Thank you again for being so thorough.  This will make a big difference in the final product!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 08:15:24 PM by Jakew81 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2014, 09:20:57 PM »
Jake,

I apparently read the Stella ingredients list too fast. But, upon rereading it, I believe the ingredients list in incorrect. I believe that the Stella whole milk mozzarella product shown in the photo and the Nutrition Facts go together. The way you can usually tell a whole milk mozzarella product is that it will have more Total Fat, more Sat Fat, more Cholesterol (by about 5mg) and less Protein (by about a gram or two) than a part-skim mozzarella cheese. Sodium levels will vary from brand to brand. Unfortunately, the websites of the producers of mozzarella cheeses don't always disclose ingredients lists, and some don't provide Nutrition Facts. You have to either go to a retailer's website or look for the products in supermarkets or big box stores and read the labels.

I think that this link to the shredded Stella part-skim mozzarella cheese confirms the error noted above: http://www.fooducate.com/app#page=product&id=E9F803D6-0CFA-11E0-BF92-FEFD45A4D471 .

I often see incorrect ingredients lists at websites of retailers. And Amazon seems to be one of the worst. It drives me crazy when I see it.

Peter

Edit: Corrected protein statement

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2014, 11:28:42 PM »
The way you can usually tell a whole milk mozzarella product is that it will have more Total Fat, more Sat Fat, more Cholesterol (by about 5mg) and more Protein (by about a gram) than a part-skim mozzarella cheese.

Are you sure about the protein difference? I would be very surprised if a whole milk mozz had more protein than a comparable part-skim mozz.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2014, 06:35:40 AM »
Are you sure about the protein difference? I would be very surprised if a whole milk mozz had more protein than a comparable part-skim mozz.
Craig,

Thanks for pointing that out. You are correct. Actually, I got things bass ackwards. There is actually less protein in a whole milk mozzarella cheese as compared with a skim-milk mozzarella cheese of the same serving size, usually reported as one ounce, or 28 grams. Usually the difference is about a gram or two depending on the brand (and also rounding factors). In my work, I usually pay more attention to the fat, cholesterol and sodium numbers for mozzarella cheeses because I find them more reliable than the protein numbers, in part because the FDA reporting requirements for fats, cholesterol and sodium items are very strict (with tighter rounding rules) because of public health concerns. Protein numbers at the single serving size are usually small numbers, and expressed to the nearest gram, and when scaled up to amounts used on pizzas the rounding factors are magnified, making the final value less useful.

I have corrected my last post and my memory banks to set the record straight.

Peter

Offline Jakew81

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Re: Attempt at making "Casey's General Store" gas station pizza
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2014, 08:48:34 AM »
I see this sort of thing quite often, although usually it is with smaller businesses. When I see it, I wonder what else might be wrong, or worse, inadvertently left out.

Peter

As I was searching different types of bread flour and their properties I noticed this

All Aces™ Flour 50 lb
General Mills Flour
A medium patent flour milled from lower prtein spring wheat with excellent fermentation and mixing tolerance. The lower protein content makes All Aces ™ ideal for thick crust pizza, pan bread, soft rolls and basic yeast-raised sweet goods.

I found this typo on a general mills website, the word protein is missing an o.
Edited
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 11:47:57 AM by Jakew81 »
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