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Offline CaptBob

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Poolish questions....
« on: July 22, 2014, 12:19:02 AM »
For Tom, Peter, Scott, Craig, etc......

The dough recipe I've been making uses a 25% poolish. Is there an optimum  percentage regarding poolish? What would happen with say, 30%? I know there can always be too much of a good thing no matter what one does but was just curious......

And thanks to all for the help you so generously provide.....

Bob

Bob

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 10:40:45 AM »
You need to define what optimum represents first.

The more you add, the more live yeast you add, so fermentation time is reduced AOTBE. That may or may not be a good thing.

There is a maximum amount but it varies upon a large number of factors not the least of which include the hydration of the poolish and the yeast activity. At some point, the enzymes would dissolve your gluten structure or your dough would simply be too wet.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 12:05:53 PM »
Bob,

The poolish is usually specified as a percent of the formula water, and can vary over a fairly wide range. For the basics of poolish, you might want to read the two Didier Rosada articles at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. The original articles with the photos are no longer available so what I have cited are the article without the photos in the archives of the Wayback Machine.

Peter

Offline CaptBob

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 02:43:00 PM »
Thank you gentlemen.....
Bob

Offline mixican

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 06:56:27 PM »
Hi! I have some questions about prefermented dough too. Could i use these methods (poolish, biga) in a commercial pizzeria? Now i use 24hours fermented dough (Pete`s papa john`s clone). So if i mix a poolish dough, leave it at a room temp for overnight, complete the final dough using prefermented dough and leave it in a refrigerator for 24 hours and bake it - did I miss anything? As far as i know i could make changes in formula of poolish dough depending on fermenting time. But i found nothing about cold fermentation in a refrigerator of the final dough using prefermented dough. Should i decrease cold fermentation time because of using prefermented dough?
And last question. Could i use unreleased dough as a sourdough? Somewhere i was told it`s possible to use unrealesed dough as a sourdough but without salt and oil. Pete`s papa john`s includes oil, sugar and salt. I hope you understand what i mean!  :-[

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 09:02:30 PM »
Hi! I have some questions about prefermented dough too. Could i use these methods (poolish, biga) in a commercial pizzeria? Now i use 24hours fermented dough (Pete`s papa john`s clone). So if i mix a poolish dough, leave it at a room temp for overnight, complete the final dough using prefermented dough and leave it in a refrigerator for 24 hours and bake it - did I miss anything? As far as i know i could make changes in formula of poolish dough depending on fermenting time. But i found nothing about cold fermentation in a refrigerator of the final dough using prefermented dough. Should i decrease cold fermentation time because of using prefermented dough?
And last question. Could i use unreleased dough as a sourdough? Somewhere i was told it`s possible to use unrealesed dough as a sourdough but without salt and oil. Pete`s papa john`s includes oil, sugar and salt. I hope you understand what i mean!  :-[
mixican,

I don't see any reason why you can't use commercially leavened preferments (including poolish and biga) in a commercial pizzeria. While not particularly common, I have read of instances over at the PMQ Think Tank (PMQTT) where pizza operators used commercially leavened preferments. Also, Norma of this forum has used preferments commercially at her pizza stand. It is also possible to make a commercially leavened preferment at room temperature, incorporate it into the final dough, and refrigerate the final dough for a specified time. Tom has discussed one such possibility using a sponge preferment at the PMQTT at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/sour-dough-and-poolish.6118/#post-38304. In fact, I used Tom's method in a dough that I described at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg62814#msg62814.

It is also possible to make a preferment, such as a poolish or a sponge, and let it preferment at room temperature overnight and incorporate it into the final dough the next day and let the final dough cold ferment for a day or more. The general way to do this is described in the article I referenced earlier in this thread at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. To be a bit more specific, you will have to decide: 1) how much preferment you want to use, 2) how long you want the preferment to work, which, together with its temperature and the temperature at which it will preferment, will dictate the amount of yeast to use in the preferment, and 3) how long you want the final dough to cold ferment, which will dictate the amount of yeast to use in the final mix. The sum of the yeast used in the preferment and in the final dough represents the total formula yeast. As you might expect, it is likely to take some experimentation to come up with a dough that does what you want it to do. You should be able to do it with most types of dough, including a Papa John's clone dough.

Peter


Offline CaptBob

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 10:20:24 PM »
Brian Spangler at Apizza Scholls makes a poolish each day for the next day's dough. You might find this video interesting.

http://www.oregonlive.com/dining/index.ssf/2012/04/pizza_week_learn_how_apizza_sc.html

Here's the recipe that was adapted from his recipe (with his input) for those of us that bake at http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/recipe.php?recipe_id=8

I've been using this recipe but incorporating a cold ferment to use dough balls from the same batch throughout the week. I think it would work just fine in a commercial application but I have no experience doing so......
Bob

Offline mixican

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2015, 03:20:59 AM »
Pete and Bob - greatly thank you, guys, you`re awesome! I`ve read the articles and have seen the video ang have got some answers. Now i start using the poolish sourdough and some more questions.
1. When i mix poolish could i use cold water (5-10 C) to have longer prefermentation period? Or i only can change the quantity of yeast to change period?
2. Could i use regrigerator to preferment poolish also in order to control prefermentation period - make it longer or shorter by changing the room/refrigarator temp?
3. As i said i use papa john`s clone recipe so could i use dough ball from the yesterday/the day before yesterday/two days before dough from the refrigerator as a sourdough today`s final dough? I think the problem could be in oil, sugar and salt presented in a final dough and i don`t know if it`s possible to use it as a sourdough.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2015, 10:30:07 AM »

1. When i mix poolish could i use cold water (5-10 C) to have longer prefermentation period? Or i only can change the quantity of yeast to change period?
2. Could i use regrigerator to preferment poolish also in order to control prefermentation period - make it longer or shorter by changing the room/refrigarator temp?
3. As i said i use papa john`s clone recipe so could i use dough ball from the yesterday/the day before yesterday/two days before dough from the refrigerator as a sourdough today`s final dough? I think the problem could be in oil, sugar and salt presented in a final dough and i don`t know if it`s possible to use it as a sourdough.
mixican,

Here are my answers in the order you presented your questions.

1. Yes, you can change the water temperature to change the fermentation time. You can also do that by changing the amount of yeast. Or you can do both. However, changing the amount of yeast changes the amounts of natural enzymes in the yeast, which can affect the performance of the yeast and dough.

2. Yes, you can put the preferment in the refrigerator. Norma did this when she made a preferement version of the Lehmann NY style dough. My recollection is that she made the preferment on a Friday and put it into her cooler until the following Monday, when she would make the final dough for use the next day. There is an entire thread on this subject at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg86106#msg86106.

3. I described a natural preferment version of the Papa John's clone dough at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60892;topicseen#msg60892 so I know that it can work with high amounts of sugar and oil. In my case, the preferment was like a more liquid version of a poolish because there was more water by weight than flour by weight. Also, the entire process was not a simple straightforward process, as you can see from reading Reply 38. It would take a fair amount of experimentation to get everything right and usable at the exact time needed to make pizzas.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Poolish questions....
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2015, 11:29:40 AM »

2. Yes, you can put the preferment in the refrigerator. Norma did this when she made a preferement version of the Lehmann NY style dough. My recollection is that she made the preferment on a Friday and put it into her cooler until the following Monday, when she would make the final dough for use the next day. There is an entire thread on this subject at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg86106#msg86106.

Peter

Peter,

Your are correct that I did make a preferment on a Friday and then refrigerated it until a Monday when the final dough was made for a Tuesday. That all was from your help.  If mixican is interested this is one photo of what the preferment looked like on a Monday before it was incorporated into the final dough at Reply 1116 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg165775#msg165775  I posted some photos of how a larger batch of preferment bubbles differently than a smaller amount of preferment at Reply 1141 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg170971#msg170971  When I find time I might try a preferment again since it has been a long while.  A formulation and other notes at Reply 1151 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg210564#msg210564  for a smaller amount of preferment dough and final dough.  I forget what oven temperatures I tried when I made a preferment dough back then.  Maybe I would be more experienced now if I tried a preferment dough that the preferment was made on a Friday and then used to be incorporated into the final dough on a Monday. 

Norma

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