A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"  (Read 11135 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mr Feelgood

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 44
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
  • I Love Pizza!
What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« on: August 12, 2014, 03:43:10 PM »
This will be my first time making a dough from scratch.  I came across this recipe published by Jamie Oliver and it seems to get great reviews.  My sauce will be made from Cento San Marzano tomatoes that have been run through a food mill.  I've already bought a bag of Caputo 00 "red bag" flour, a bag of Caputo Semola extra fine flour, and a box of Turbinado sugar.

Has anyone used this before or have any comments on how to make it better?  Approximately how many large sized pizza will I get from this?  Will it taste better by letting the dough sit in the refrigerator over night?  I need all the help I can get here :)


http://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/recipe/pizza-dough


    7 cups "00" flour or strong white bread flour, plus more for work surface and bowl
    1 tablespoon fine sea salt
    2 1/2 cups lukewarm water
    2 (1/4-ounce) packages active dry yeast
    1 tablespoon raw sugar, such as turbinado or Demerara
    1/4 cup extra-virgin olive oil

Offline Mr Feelgood

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 44
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 03:56:40 PM »
Also, can someone please recommend a good brand of yeast to buy?  Which kind would work best with this recipe?  Preferably something that can be bought on Amazon would be great as my local supermarket doesn't have a great variety.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27925
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 04:23:20 PM »
Any brand of active dry yeast your find in your local grocery should be just fine. Just check the date to be sure it's not expired.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Mr Feelgood

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 44
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 05:35:46 PM »
Thanks Craig.  Wasn't sure if there was a preferred brand or type "active, fresh, instant" that is commonly used on here.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27925
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 05:41:38 PM »
Thanks Craig.  Wasn't sure if there was a preferred brand or type "active, fresh, instant" that is commonly used on here.

Instant (IDY a.k.a. bread machine yeast) is probably preferred, but it's not directly interchangable with active (ADY) or Fresh (CY). Here is a conversion if you want to change your recipe: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline parallei

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3059
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 05:56:44 PM »
Thanks Craig.  Wasn't sure if there was a preferred brand or type "active, fresh, instant" that is commonly used on here.

SAF Red is an IDY I've used a lot in the past:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/saf-red-instant-yeast-16-oz

When I ran out a few months ago, I bought Fleischmann'sŪ Bread Machine Yeast because that is what I found at the grocery store that day:

http://www.breadworld.com/products

Instant yeast is my like the SAF or Fleischmann's is is my preference.  I'm sure any will do.

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2533
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 09:15:00 PM »
What do I think of the recipe?

I'm gonna be honest here because I don't want you to have to learn things the hard way, which is exactly what will happen if you get very intimate with the recipe you shared. There are lots of other members who feel the same as me but don't feel comfortable saying what I'm about to say, even though it is probably the best feedback you could receive.

Throw away the recipe and never use a celebrity chef's recipe again. The best recipes and instruction you'll ever find are on these boards, not Food Network or any other network or food-related web site. The recipe itself does not tell us anything unless we take the time to convert it to bakers' percentages, which most of us will not do. Including me. Even if someone does convert it, the percentages will still be a guess because it is impossible to convert volumetric measurements to weight measurements. (I can tell you that is way too much yeast, though; just like every celebrity chef's recipe.)

The fact that the recipe says to use 00 flour is a big red flag. The fact that it says "cups" anywhere in the recipe is a big red flag. The fact that it says "extra virgin olive oil" is a big red flag. There are more big red flags than what I've listed.

No one put any thought into that recipe. It's just a copy of what someone else shared somewhere else, which was a copy of what someone else shared somewhere else, and so on.

Go ahead and give it a try, but realize that the recipe you shared is not for people who intend to make great pizza. Rather, it is for people who want to feel good about making something that could be called pizza.

I would not care to eat Jamie Oliver's pizza, nor would I care to eat any other celebrity chef's pizza. Conversely, I would love to eat the pizzas made by most members of these forums; probably even the members who call me a troll or consider me a troll. I'm not a troll.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1158
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 09:26:07 PM »
00 is NOT bread flour
Wherever you go, there you are.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27925
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 09:53:17 PM »
For reasons similar to what Ryan noted, I stopped reading the first time when I got to Jamie Oliver. After now looking at the recipe, I'll tell you that I think there are some serious problems with it. Interestingly, the recipe flour and water is actually specified by weight (1ml water = 1g). The two things that bother me the most are 1.4% yeast which absolutely a massive amount of yeast (hence the 1 hour rise time). This dough will be horribly overblown long before it develops any flavor. The second major problem is calling for deflating the dough before dividing and then immediately opening. If you follow these instructions, the dough will be like working with a piece of rubber. Even if you ball before rising, the super-short rise time won't be sufficient for the dough to relax, and it will fight you like you owe it money.

I think you would be better off starting out on the right food with one of these:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27591.0
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg49940.html#msg49940
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg69553.html#msg69553

Many more to choose from here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 15138
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2014, 12:04:48 AM »
And Ryan is NOT a troll...contact me if you got a problem with that.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7295
  • Location: Morristown, NJ
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2014, 12:11:19 AM »
Mr. Feelgood, I took my 123 recipe and gave it a couple tweaks to make it more like the photos of the pizza(s) you posted.  Here it is. I made the diameter 15" assuming that you're going to end up with at least a 16" stone (and hopefully larger ;) ).  I also made it a triple batch, so you'll have extra dough balls to practice stretching with. You'll need them.

Makes three 15" pies (use the dough calculator for scaling up):
KABF* (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (.3%):
Salt (1.75%):
Soybean Oil (4%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (167.05%):
Single Ball:
764.75 g  |  26.98 oz | 1.69 lbs
458.85 g  |  16.19 oz | 1.01 lbs
2.29 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
13.38 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.4 tsp | 0.8 tbsp
30.59 g | 1.08 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.8 tsp | 2.27 tbsp
7.65 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.92 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
1277.51 g | 45.06 oz | 2.82 lbs | TF = 0.085
425.84 g | 15.02 oz | 0.94 lbs

*King Arthur Bread Flour
**Room temp water (should be close to 70 deg.)

Measure dry ingredients (no yeast) in a bowl. Measure wet (+ yeast) in a bigger bowl. Mix to dissolve yeast. Dry into wet. Stir vigorously with a metal spoon until it's too stiff to stir, then knead, by hand or by machine, until the dough is just about smooth (3-6 minutes). Here is a pretty good video on kneading by hand:



Ignore the part at the end about 'now we're ready to roll out the dough.' Tip: When you flour the bench- and this when you're kneading and when you're stretching, flick the wrist like you're throwing dice.  The goal is to quickly flick the flour so a puff of it lands in an even, thin layer on the bench.  Remember, you're launching the flour, in the air, not dropping the flour on the counter.

Scale (weigh) the dough and divide into three equal portions. Ball each and place in lightly oiled, large round disposable covered containers. Here's a decent video on balling:



And here's how I ball

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32336.0

Refrigerate 1 day. Remove from fridge 3 hours before baking.

Pre-heat stone for 60-80 minutes at the highest setting your oven goes to (using convection, if your oven has it). Stone should be positioned on an oven shelf that's about 6-7" from the broiler.

Dust wooden peel with flour
Stretch skin to 15" and place on peel
Quickly dress the pizza, shaking between each topping to make sure the skin doesn't stick
Launch. Here's an okay video on launching



(never put your hands in an oven, and, bake at your highest setting)

Turn pizza every couple minutes with metal peel
Bake until pizza top and bottom are well colored
Use broiler towards the end of the bake (last 2 minutes) if top needs more browning
Retrieve, using metal peel, onto cooling rack
Allow to cool 7 minutes
Transfer to metal pizza pan
Slice and serve

Here's a video on stretching (ignore the rolling pin and tossing parts)



Tony only flours his dough ball once at the beginning, but you will most likely need to flour the bench at least a couple times during the stretch, especially the edge stretch.  Scoop the dough up with one arm and flick the flour with your hand, then place the dough back on the bench and continue stretching.  If the dough sticks to the bench during the edge stretch, the edge will fold under itself and you'll have a pizza shaped a bit like Florida.

While I believe I've made this as simple and easy as possible, there's a couple aspects that can't be simplified.  First, the dough should be between 2x and 3x the original volume before stretching.  If it's overblown, next time, dial back the yeast. If it hasn't expanded enough, next time, use more yeast. Tweak the yeast in small increments (such as round/scant). Secondly, stretching and launching skills aren't going to happen overnight. Start off by using lots of flour- both on the skin as you're stretching it and on the peel. As you get more comfortable, dial back the flour.
----------------------

As you taste the pizza you create, you're going to want to compare the texture to the Pittsburgh places you're used to. If it's not chewy enough, we made need a stronger flour.  Also, from the photos, I think they may be using more oil, but let's try 4% to start.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 02:17:49 AM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7295
  • Location: Morristown, NJ
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2014, 12:25:41 AM »
P.S. Use the 00 for dusting the peel.  Until you either get a wood fired oven, or another oven that's capable of 90 second bakes (such as a blackstone or a 2stone), the 00 is pretty much worthless.

Also, by the way, the next time you go to your two favorite places, do a little reconnaissance. Find out the:

Bake time
Flour brand (look for bags)
Tomato brand (if cans are visible)

If they'll let you shoot a video, and you can get a video of the stretch, that would be very helpful.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30528
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2014, 10:03:14 AM »
It looks like everyone was looking at the recipe that Mr Feelgood posted rather than the one at the Jamie Oliver website at http://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/recipe/pizza-dough. The actual recipe is fairly easy to convert to baker's percent format. Nominally, the hydration is about 54.2% but when you add in the oil, at about 4.536%, the total is around 58.7%. That is a value that would work with any of the flours mentioned in the Oliver recipe. The dough may actually feel somewhat less hydrated, because of the use of semolina flour that needs extra water to hydrate it.

To me, the Oliver recipe looks more like an "emergency" American style pizza, with a fair amount of oil and some sugar (about 1%), than a NY style. If that is what Mr Feelgood is looking for, he might want to try the Papa John's emergency clone dough as set forth at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312. I can't speak to the thickness factor because the Oliver recipe is said to make 6 to 8 pizzas. I'd have to do a full conversion of the Oliver recipe to see what the thickness factor range is. By this time, maybe Mr Feelgood has a different style of pizza in mind.

In the meantime, I have added a link to Scott's revised 123 Pizza recipe to the NY style collection at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27925
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2014, 10:12:47 AM »
It looks like everyone was looking at the recipe that Mr Feelgood posted rather than the one at the Jamie Oliver website at http://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/recipe/pizza-dough. The actual recipe is fairly easy to convert to baker's percent format. Nominally, the hydration is about 54.2% but when you add in the oil, at about 4.536%, the total is around 58.7%. That is a value that would work with any of the flours mentioned in the Oliver recipe. The dough may actually feel somewhat less hydrated, because of the use of semolina flour that needs extra water to hydrate it.

Not everyone  ;D
For reasons similar to what Ryan noted, I stopped reading the first time when I got to Jamie Oliver. After now looking at the recipe, I'll tell you that I think there are some serious problems with it. Interestingly, the recipe flour and water is actually specified by weight (1ml water = 1g)."

Peter, I think you misread the recipe when you did your HR conversion. I believe it calls for 1kg flour not 1.2kg.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30528
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2014, 12:20:34 PM »

Peter, I think you misread the recipe when you did your HR conversion. I believe it calls for 1kg flour not 1.2kg.
Scott,

This is what the recipe says:

1 kg white bread flour or Tipo '00' flour, or 800g strong white bread flour or Tipo '00' flour, plus 200g finely ground semolina flour

The description is actually ambiguous because one can read it to allow adding 200 grams of semolina flour to the 1kg white bread flour or the Tipo 00 flour. But, I think you are right that what is really intended is a total flour or flour blend quantity of 1kg. Otherwise, the numbers can go out of whack. But the net effect is to make the final pizza even more like an American style pizza, with a higher percent of oil and sugar, and less like a NY style pizza.  ;D

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27925
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2014, 12:23:33 PM »
Scott,

I think you misread who suggested you misread.   ;D
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Mr Feelgood

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 44
  • Location: Pittsburgh, PA
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2014, 01:43:35 PM »
Wow, lots of great information here.  Thank you for the replies everyone!

I suppose that I was bit overwhelmed by the new terminology/slang used on the forum and just found that simple recipe on the net that had good reviews.  I am sure there are some amazing recipes here provided members with a much more discerning taste when compared to a celebrity chef that is trying to make quick a one size fits all recipe. 

I'm going to give your recipe a go Scott123 instead of the JO recipe.  I will have to pick up some KABF now and use the 00 Caputo for dusting the peel as mentioned.  Would cornmeal make the pizza slide off the peel more easily or should I just use the 00 Caputo that I have.  Is soy bean oil critical to the recipe or can vegetable or EVOO be used instead of it?  Also, is sugar in the raw "turbinado" okay for the sugar?

Lastly, what is the best way to freeze this dough after the final rise is completed and how long will it stay good in the freezer?

Once again, I appreciate everyone's input and help while I get the hang of things  :chef:

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 7295
  • Location: Morristown, NJ
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2014, 01:47:34 PM »
Scott,

...I think you are right...

Woo hoo! I love being right!  :-D

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2533
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2014, 01:49:38 PM »
I think you misread who suggested you misread.   ;D

I think there are too many people changing their profile pics lately. I'm conditioned to seeing Pizza Town for Scott and something-dillo for you (Craig).
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2533
  • Location: Grove City (Columbus), Ohio
    • Snarky
Re: What do you think of this recipe? "First timer"
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2014, 01:52:34 PM »
Does PennMac have any good flour, anyone? Considering he lives in Pittsburgh and thus won't have to worry about PennMac's ridiculous shipping prices.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T