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Author Topic: Can a KA sourdough starter be used in combination with IDY for a great tasting p  (Read 18291 times)

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Offline scott123

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If using natural leavening is a cardinal sin against the very foundations of NY-pizza, why would they lie about using "homemade yeast," or let it stand uncorrected after it was published that they did (in more than one place)?

They're not lying, it's just confusion and/or marketing speak. It's most likely just an old dough using baker's yeast, which is a practice you occasionally find, but, because they're not adding any yeast, they probably consider it "homemade."  I've seen some places use old dough and then tell people "we don't add any yeast to our dough." These kinds of mystique-lending artifices are used ALL the time. But they don't really mean anything.

For instance, in this video,



Nino talks about spending 'a lot of time making my own mozzarella,' and, only a few seconds later, talks about buying grande curd.  You see a lot of places that fudge the terminology a bit and morph 'stretching our own cheese' into 'making our own cheese.' This is just a little more of that type of creative license.

And just because no one (that I know of) to date, has ever made naturally leavened NY style pizza in this area, it doesn't mean that no one ever will add sourdough to a NY style recipe commercially.  Someone might see marketing potential in it and do it.  But someone also might start making a crust with chocolate in it.  But that won't mean that NY style crusts are made with chocolate :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Peter,

What you posted about your Google searches is interesting.  I wonder how we are ever really going to find out if Williamsburg Pizza does use homemade yeast, and if they do, what kind it really would be.  I know using the KA sourdough starter today did not give any sourdough taste, but the taste of the crust sure was different. 

Norma
Norma,

Just as we can't prove that Santa Claus actually exists, we may have the same difficulty proving that Williamsburg Pizza is not using a "homemade yeast" as Scott contends. On the other hand, we have both been on the receiving end of misinformation from people who knew or should have known better. That is why we took a trust but verify approach, even when it was tempting to ignore the verify part. I'm afraid that the verify part will be the stumbling block with Williamsburg Pizza. You might try calling the Broome Street location again to follow up on your last phone call.

The above aside, I don't see the logic or benefit to be gained by misrepresenting things in publications such as the one earlier referenced and also in a second publication at http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroad/2012/10/say_hello_to_am.php. If the pizza is as good as everyone claims, there would be no need to mention the use of a homemade yeast at all. Misrepresenting a product to sell it is not a good way to build a business and there is always a risk of the misrepresentation being exposed.

Peter

Offline parallei

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Nice job Norma.  The crumb looks great. :chef:

I can't remember if I've ever used the same method you used here for pizza.  However, I've made baguette dough with a natural leaven and IDY, and also some doughs with a natural leaven and a polish made with IDY.  Like you I noted a different taste, particularly with the natural leaven/polish combo.

Offline scott123

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Misrepresenting a product to sell it is not a good way to build a business and there is always a risk of the misrepresentation being exposed.

But, Peter, it's not a misrepresentation at all.  This forum, and I think, most serious breadmakers, have come to define 'homemade yeast' as 'natural leavening,'  but as far as I know, it's not in the dictionary.  Just because this community defines it as such, doesn't make it so.  Based on the fact that they didn't immediately, after being questioned about natural leavening, reply "homemade yeast is natural leavening," shows that they're defining it differently- which, they're allowed to do. Restaurants use these kinds of vague terms all the time.

Offline JD

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The pizza baked well with good oven spring.  The flavor of the crust was very good and different than other pies I have made.  The inside of rim crust was very moist and the edges of the rim crust were nice and a little bit crisp (something like an eggshell but not exactly).  I guess the KA sourdough starter and IDY crust “knocked my socks off, and made my toes wiggle”.   8)

Norma, have you made a pizza using only KA sourdough starter, and no added commercial yeast?
JD's NY Style
JD's Neapolitan using my Pizza Party WFO

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Offline norma427

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Hi Norma:

I think I do have a question.  It is "how long was the yeast in contact with the flour before you put the final dough in the fridge?"

The reason I ask is that the IDY % of 0.16 looked a little low to me.  When I have made dough like this ("this" being SD + yeast), I usually followed Varasano's method of mixing which goes like this:

1 Mix all the ingredients together, but hold back 25% of the flour.  Mix only for a minute or two on low speed.
2 Rest dough, covered, for 20 minutes.
3. Start the mixer again at a low speed.  After about 5 minutes start adding the rest of the flour gradually.
4 By the time you hit 10 minutes, you have a nice dough ball, but still a bit shaggy.
5. Rest for 15 minutes
6. Give the dough maybe a minute of hand kneading.  It is now nice and smooth.
7. Divide into dough balls and let them rest at room temperature for 10 minutes and then cold ferment.

When I follow this process, using 0.25% IDY, the dough is usually nice and ready to go at about 3 days.

If you add up all the times, above, the yeast is working at room temperature for about an hour before hitting the fridge.

I am wondering if you were able to be ready after 1 day using 0.16% because it was at room temperature for more than an hour.

Hope all that makes sense.

It has been several months since I made a batch of dough this way, I may go at it again for fun and to remind myself what it is like.

Regards,
Mitch

Mitch,

I used cold water right out of the fridge to mix the dough.  The dough took maybe 6-7 stretch and folds (or slap and folds) and about 10 minute rest periods in between to get the dough where it was not sticky.  The dough was out at room temperature (at about 68 degrees F) for about 1 ˝ hrs. 

The method I used for mixing was froth the starter into the water, add the flour, salt and IDY, then mix with the flat beater in the Kitchen Aid.  Then rest for about 2 minutes.  Start mixing again on speed one with the flat beater until the dough comes together a little more, then add the oil by drizzling down the side of the mixer bowl.  Mix until the oil is incorporated.  Then change to the spiral hook and continue mixing for about 7 more minutes.  I had to pull the dough down off of the spiral hook a couple of times. 

I did post that the KA starter was not fully active either when I used it.  It almost had fell to where it was before it was fed.

Your method would probably work too.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Just as we can't prove that Santa Claus actually exists, we may have the same difficulty proving that Williamsburg Pizza is not using a "homemade yeast" as Scott contends. On the other hand, we have both been on the receiving end of misinformation from people who knew or should have known better. That is why we took a trust but verify approach, even when it was tempting to ignore the verify part. I'm afraid that the verify part will be the stumbling block with Williamsburg Pizza. You might try calling the Broome Street location again to follow up on your last phone call.

The above aside, I don't see the logic or benefit to be gained by misrepresenting things in publications such as the one earlier referenced and also in a second publication at http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroad/2012/10/say_hello_to_am.php. If the pizza is as good as everyone claims, there would be no need to mention the use of a homemade yeast at all. Misrepresenting a product to sell it is not a good way to build a business and there is always a risk of the misrepresentation being exposed.

Peter

I agree we may have difficulty proving that Williamsburg Pizza is not using a homemade yeast.  I know we both have been on the receiving end of misinformation from people who knew or should have know better.  I might call the Broome St. location right after they open tomorrow.  Maybe I will get a hold of a different person to speak with.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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But, Peter, it's not a misrepresentation at all.  This forum, and I think, most serious breadmakers, have come to define 'homemade yeast' as 'natural leavening,'  but as far as I know, it's not in the dictionary.  Just because this community defines it as such, doesn't make it so.  Based on the fact that they didn't immediately, after being questioned about natural leavening, reply "homemade yeast is natural leavening," shows that they're defining it differently- which, they're allowed to do. Restaurants use these kinds of vague terms all the time.
Scott,

With all due respect, and while I realize that people can be fast and loose with information, I do not find your explanations convincing. But that is beside the point, and it's nothing personal. I need actual proof. And the only way to find it is to look for it. You will note that I did not say that Williamsburg Pizza employees were lying. I used the term misrepresentation. A misrepresentation need not be based on an intent to lie. It can be innocent. But even misrepresentations can have legal consequences to the extent that people rely on the misrepresentations. If Williamsburg Pizza wants to steer clear of difficulties with its representations, and any bad publicity that might follow, it should step forward and correct the misstatements.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Nice job Norma.  The crumb looks great. :chef:

I can't remember if I've ever used the same method you used here for pizza.  However, I've made baguette dough with a natural leaven and IDY, and also some doughs with a natural leaven and a polish made with IDY.  Like you I noted a different taste, particularly with the natural leaven/polish combo.

Paul,

Thanks!  I think your baguette dough with a natural leaven and IDY would have been about the same thing that I did.  Thanks for telling us where you noted the different taste the most.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Norma, have you made a pizza using only KA sourdough starter, and no added commercial yeast?

Josh,

No, I did not make a pizza using only the KA sourdough starter.  The KA sourdough starter just arrived at my home on Tuesday and I did not feed it until Tuesday evening for the first time.  The KA sourdough starter came in a semi-liquid form.

Norma

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Offline JD

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Josh,

No, I did not make a pizza using only the KA sourdough starter.  The KA sourdough starter just arrived at my home on Tuesday and I did not feed it until Tuesday evening for the first time.  The KA sourdough starter came in a semi-liquid form.

Norma

I think you need to make a "control" pizza using only KA sourdough starter, before you form any opinions on combining the KA starter & IDY?
JD's NY Style
JD's Neapolitan using my Pizza Party WFO

Experience cannot be taught.

-Josh

Offline norma427

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I think you need to make a "control" pizza using only KA sourdough starter, before you form any opinions on combining the KA starter & IDY?

Josh,

I agree, but the reason I am trying to find out if the KA sourdough starter and IDY can be used together to produce a different flavor is because that is the way Tom first presented the idea to me.  I would have never even thought of purchasing a KA sourdough starter.  It was Tom that told me he had been making his doughs with both for awhile.  I just wanted to see what would happen.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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I agree we may have difficulty proving that Williamsburg Pizza is not using a homemade yeast.  I know we both have been on the receiving end of misinformation from people who knew or should have know better.  I might call the Broome St. location right after they open tomorrow.  Maybe I will get a hold of a different person to speak with.

Norma
Norma,

Both Williamsburg Pizza locations confirmed what the two articles said, even if they did not reveal the components of the "homemade yeast". So, if they are standing by what the articles say, knowing that they are not actually using a homemade yeast, then their misrepresentation is a lie. We may never find the answer but that is always a risk when attempting to reverse someone's product against their wishes.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Norma,

Both Williamsburg Pizza locations confirmed what the two articles said, even if they did not reveal the components of the "homemade yeast". So, if they are standing by what the articles say, knowing that they are not actually using a homemade yeast, then their misrepresentation is a lie. We may never find the answer but that is always a risk when attempting to reverse someone's product against their wishes.

Peter

Peter,

I had not replied about you finding that other article.  Thanks for finding the second article.  I asked a friend on facebook that lives in NYC to see if he can confirm or not if Williamsburg Pizza uses a “homemade yeast”.  He said he will ask the next time he goes to Williamsburg Pizza.  My friend had never seen those articles before, but has eaten pizza at Williamsburg Pizza different times.  I also have another friend that lives in NYC that I might be able to ask to see if he knows anything about the yeast. 

I agree that is they are not actually using a homemade yeast, then their misrepresentation is a lie.  I don't think I understand the part about the risk when attempting to reverse someone's product against their wishes.

Norma

Offline scott123

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With all due respect, and while I realize that people can be fast and loose with information, I do not find your explanations convincing.

Peter, show me any official definition for 'homemade yeast' in any dictionary or encyclopedia, abridged, unabridged, whatever.  You can't, because one does not exist.  A term cannot misrepresent a business entity if it possesses no universally agreed upon meaning.

I don't think you really understand the mindset you're dealing with here.  This is not Chris Bianco, Jeff Varasano, Roberto Caporuscio or even Dom Demarco.  Here, watch this video of the owner:



This is not someone who crosses every T and dots every I- not someone who's parsing every word that emanates from his lips. This is not someone educated in the myriad complexities of natural leavening. You're applying an academic standard where no academia can be found.

Williamsburg Pizza: A Cause for Celebration

Quote
we talked to Coniglio and quickly learned he's a meticulous, passionate, pizza-obsessive, and a little nutty in the way all great NYC pie-men are.   He talked to Kenji about growing his own wheat and milling his own flour on two acres of land he bought in the Poconos. While we were not convinced his wheat knowledge equalled his pizza smarts

Translation: he enjoys taking some creative license.

I know you enjoy a good mystery, and I wish you well on this quest, but I'm telling you, I know at least 2 other people that have gone down this rabbit hole and emerged even more confused than they went in. It's a fool's errand.

Norma, if there's any hope of getting to the bottom of this, stop asking them if they make their pizza with 'homemade yeast.' They just going to say 'yes,' which tells you/us nothing. Tell them that you're allergic to sourdough (or something along those lines), and see if that get's you a coherent answer.  It probably won't, but it beats spinning your wheels on a meaningless term. I might also ask if they sell dough balls, and, if they do, ask if refrigerating them is okay, and if they say, yes, ask them if they refrigerate the dough. ("Do you refrigerate it? I don't want to do anything with the dough that you don't do").

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Offline TXCraig1

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Just as we can't prove that Santa Claus actually exists,

That's just crazy talk. If there is no Santa, who is leaving me presents? Q.E.D.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline norma427

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That's just crazy talk. If there is no Santa, who is leaving me presents? Q.E.D.

Craig,

 :-D

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Peter Scott, show me any official definition for 'homemade yeast' NY-Style Pizza in any dictionary or encyclopedia, abridged, unabridged, whatever.  You can't, because one does not exist.  A term cannot misrepresent a business entity if it possesses no universally agreed upon meaning.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

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Nino talks about spending 'a lot of time making my own mozzarella,' and, only a few seconds later, talks about buying grande curd. 

When I first noticed how many restaurants remarked that they made their own mozerella, I was quite surprised because not knowing any better, I assumed from scratch. When I learned what 99.999% of them meant by that, I thought it was a cheesy.  :-D   But as I learned more, I realized it did have meaning, and that, if they do a good job, you will get a better product. I "made mozzarella" with Josh (Pieous) at Tom's house and here at my house with Chau, and there is no doubt whatsoever that I can't buy cheese that good in Houston. I wish it wasn't such a pain for me to buy curd. Turning curd into mozzarella can fairly be called making mozzarella or homemade mozzarella, and as I've learned, it's very common to do so. How you think this is comparable to calling baker's yeast "homemade," I'm not getting however. Unlike "homemade mozerella," it's certainly not common to do so.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

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Quote
we talked to Coniglio and quickly learned he's a meticulous, passionate, pizza-obsessive, and a little nutty in the way all great NYC pie-men are.   He talked to Kenji about growing his own wheat and milling his own flour on two acres of land he bought in the Poconos. While we were not convinced his wheat knowledge equalled his pizza smarts

Quote
Translation: he enjoys taking some creative license.


Let me give you an alternate translation: "anyone crazy enough to grow his own wheat for pizza might try SD in NY-style."
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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