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Author Topic: Craig's Johnny's Clone  (Read 56253 times)

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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #120 on: August 12, 2015, 01:22:00 PM »
One thing I am still a bit confused about - what the difference between a preferment versus just bulk fermenting the whole dough at RT?
the proof is in the pizza

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #121 on: August 12, 2015, 02:40:07 PM »
One thing I am still a bit confused about - what the difference between a preferment versus just bulk fermenting the whole dough at RT?
Ryan,

Preferments are creations of the bread world. And one of the benefits of preferments, in addition to contributing to the aroma, taste, flavor and texture of the finished product, is to shorten the production time. But this presumes that a preferment is available at the time of preparation of the dough that is to become the final product, whether it is a bread dough or a pizza dough, or something else. Many bakers have a special part of their facility or shop where they make and store preferments so that they are available to the baker when he or she comes into the store in the morning to make the dough for their breads. If you have access to Prof. Raymond Calvel's book The Taste of Bread, there is a great chart on page 46 that shows how preferments can shorten the total production time. As an example, a conventional straight bread dough might take 6 hours to make from beginning to end (with the "end" being the baked bread). But when a poolish preferment is at the ready and available to be used to make the final dough, the total production time from beginning to end can be 4 3/4 hours.

Maybe one can concoct a scenario where a bulk ferment of a dough at room temperature will yield a product that has all of the benefits of a preferment but I have never seen or read about such a scenario. As you can see from the article by Didier Rosada at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm, a poolish for example can be made in as little as three hours or up to 12-15 hours. It is even possible to make an overnight poolish. Also, in a companion article by Rosada at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm, he reminds us under the section Advantages that a Dough at the preferment stage is not used to make the final product. It is used to make the final dough that is used to make breads. So, while use of a preferment is compatible with a companion room temperature fermentation, they are in separate steps or stages, not simultaneous.

I think if you read the two Rosada articles, you will have a much better understanding about the role and benefits of preferments, just as I discovered when I first read those articles.

Peter

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #122 on: August 12, 2015, 04:12:08 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the links. I have read up on both of these, but those articles filled in some blanks; while also creating new ones. I am mostly interested in the flavor differences. I found this bit of information especially useful.

"More liquid preferments like poolish, because of their liquid consistency, favor enzyme activity. Amylase, but also protease, will be more active during the pre-fermentation. The same protease effect also happens in preferments such as sponge that do not have salt and ferment for a long time at room temperature. Room temperature (versus cooler temperature) favors enzyme activity. The absence of salt in the preparation encourages a higher rate of protease activity since protease is very salt sensitive. Cold doughs with salt do not generate the same level of enzyme activity."

On this forum, most NY'ers are using refrigeration, but with Neapolitan many are doing room temp. According to Mr. Rosada, the cold rise doughs with salt would be lacking on certain protease. Is it the salt and its effect on protease that makes all the difference? Isn't a fully mixed dough @ 60%HR just a big biga, only the inclusion of salt makes it a "finished" dough? The more you up hydration the closer you get to poolish. Am I way off in thinking high hydration no knead methods, like Lahey's, the whole dough is a room temp poolish. It's the addition of salt that makes it not eligible to be called a poolish, the same as adding anything beyond flour and water isn't a true autolyse.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #123 on: August 12, 2015, 06:36:43 PM »
Ryan,

Although Craig uses a poolish, I would not like to steer this thread off in a more general direction about preferments. However, if you would like to start a new thread on the subject, I'd be happy to participate to the extent that I would have an input of value.

The above said, I think it is important to keep in mind that a preferment, whatever its form, is a precursor to a final dough, just as Craig used it. I agree that it might be possible to come up with a dough that resembles a biga from a hydration standpoint and could be subjected to fermentation, but what you would end up would unlikely be equivalent to a dough that included a biga preferment to begin with. Likewise, it is possible to come up with a dough that resembles a poolish. One such example can be seen at https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza. The recipe at that site has a hydration of over 90%, which is just a bit less than the 100% hydration of a poolish. But, as you can see, it takes a lot of kneading to develop the gluten and the dough is so extensible that the skin has to be formed on parchment paper. The Lahey dough you mentioned has a hydration value that is much less than a poolish. I calculated a value of better than 80%. As a sidenote, I might mention that I read in Prof. Calvel's book that the poolish started to fall out of favor in France around 1920 in favor of the direct dough method. When I looked for recipes in the book using a poolish, I found only two recipes, for basic French breads. There were quite a few for sponges and prefermented dough, but not many for poolish. I did not see anything identified as a biga. All of the preferments in the recipes in the book did not contain salt except for the prefermented doughs. But even prefermented doughs were precursors to a final dough.

Finally, I would add that I have not seen many examples where the protease enzymes were inhibited in a normal dough by the presence of salt from attacking and degrading the gluten structure if given enough time. Remember, also, that there are also acids and alcohol fermentation byproducts that can also degrade the gluten structure.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #124 on: August 12, 2015, 08:17:23 PM »
I don't mind the discussion here, but others would probably benefit down the road if it had its own thread.

I'd simply add that I'm a believer in using a poolish with baker's yeast when doing CF. I think it's a great combo.
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Offline crawsdaddy

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #125 on: August 13, 2015, 10:25:12 AM »
I shouldn't have slept in!  :chef:

I am kicking myself for scheduling a lunch with an old friend. I could have eaten that whole pie myself Craig. It looks wonderful.

Offline jvp123

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #126 on: August 16, 2015, 07:47:49 AM »
I had planned to make Johnny's clones for lunch at the TPS4, but everyone slept in I guess. I made this one for lunch yesterday. 10 hour preferment of 40% of the flour, 1 day bulk in the fridge, 1.5 days in balls in the fridge. I mixed Calabrian chili oil into the sauce. Quite tasty it was.

17", 450g dough. Baked on the MOABS: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39045.0

Craig, where do you let your 10 hour pre-ferment sit? Is it in the cooler at around 72 or is it in the fridge? Or?
Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #127 on: August 16, 2015, 01:18:18 PM »
Craig, where do you let your 10 hour pre-ferment sit? Is it in the cooler at around 72 or is it in the fridge? Or?

Generally on the counter at whatever temperature it happens to be.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline taleksun

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2016, 07:59:44 PM »
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 08:48:56 PM by Steve »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #129 on: March 31, 2016, 01:20:26 AM »
Yes. Typo. Should be KABF - King Arthur Bread Flour though GM Bread flour would work fine as well. So would KAAP or GMAP for that matter.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline taleksun

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #130 on: March 31, 2016, 04:39:11 AM »
Yes. Typo. Should be KABF - King Arthur Bread Flour though GM Bread flour would work fine as well. So would KAAP or GMAP for that matter.

And I was thinking 50% KABF and 50% KAAP  = KABP :-\

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #131 on: March 31, 2016, 08:49:15 AM »
And I was thinking 50% KABF and 50% KAAP  = KABP :-\

Thats funny - and it would work just fine  ;D
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #132 on: March 31, 2016, 09:14:05 AM »
Just stumbled on this thread..and I really like it. Craig, a question on the sliced mozz...You're doing this at home, correct? How do you get hose precise thicknesses? is there any way to have the guys at the deli do this...even if not quite so specifically? Ask for paper-thin, or maybe not that thin, or????

Thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #133 on: March 31, 2016, 09:49:59 AM »
I had them slice it at the deli. I just showed them how thick to slice it with my fingers and asked to see a slice before they cut the rest.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #134 on: March 31, 2016, 09:57:31 AM »
Thanks Craig...That's what I've been doing, just wanted to be sure my "technique" was right  :-D  I try to have them put paper between the slices or at least shingle them because otherwise at bake time, I've had sticking-together issues. Cheese is an ongoing development area for me  :) 

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #135 on: March 31, 2016, 11:08:30 AM »
I hate buying LM mozz in the grocery store deli. It's $7/lb, and in a 5# block at the cash and carry, it's $2/lb. I love the way even slices bake on the pie though.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline JD

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #136 on: March 31, 2016, 11:15:31 AM »
I hate buying LM mozz in the grocery store deli. It's $7/lb, and in a 5# block at the cash and carry, it's $2/lb. I love the way even slices bake on the pie though.

You don't own a deli slicer?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #137 on: March 31, 2016, 11:54:11 AM »
You don't own a deli slicer?

Unfortunately no. I had a chance to buy a like-new full size industrial Hobart slicer for a couple $100 some years ago but had no place to put it. Big regret.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #138 on: March 31, 2016, 12:05:50 PM »
a Mandolin slicer works pretty well.  Just vacuum seal the rest of the cheese in usable portions and keep in the freezer. 

Offline rparker

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Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
« Reply #139 on: March 31, 2016, 12:39:04 PM »
a Mandolin slicer works pretty well.  Just vacuum seal the rest of the cheese in usable portions and keep in the freezer.
Even for really paper-thin cheese slicing?

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