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Author Topic: My First Pies using the Master Dough with Starter recipe from the Pizza Bible  (Read 11050 times)

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Offline mitchjg

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A number of the forum members recently obtained their copies of the Pizza Bible by Tony Gemignani and have started making pies or planning them.  I just finished baking two pies this evening and I thought it might be helpful to share the details and the results.

The dough I made was from Tony’s Master Dough with Starter.  He calls the starter in the dough Tiga (T is for Tony).  It is the same as a Biga but at 70% hydration (a little wetter than usual).

The recipe calls for cold fermentation from 24 to 48 hours.  I cold fermented for 34 hours and that was simply based on scheduling..  I made the Tiga 2 days ago, the dough yesterday morning and the pies this evening.

The Total Formula looks like this:

Total Formula   
Flour   100.00%
Water   63.00%
Salt   2.00%
Yeast   0.47%
Oil   1.00%
Total   166.47%
   

I think my actual hydration was 64%.  Tony suggests that if all the flour has not been picked up when mixing that it is ok to add a bit of water.  I needed to do so and added a teaspoon of water.

You may also note that the recipe for Master Dough also can be 65% hydration.  You have the option of a 100% hydrated poolish which is added in the same amount.  So, the difference is the result of the different hydrations of the starter.

The recipe calls for flour with protein of 13% - 14% and a bake at 500 degrees.  I planned to bake at over 700 degrees and decided to use a slightly less strong flour.  So, I mixed KABF and Giusto’s High Performer together.  I probably came to 13.0% on the button.

Tony’s recipes for pizza have different thickness factors.  The New Yorker has a thickness factor of 0.10 and a diameter of 13 inches.  I decided to target a thickness factor of about .075 and made dough balls that were abut 285 grams for 13 inch pies.

My actual pies came out with diameters of at least 13.5 inches and so my thickness factor was about 0.07.

The dough proved to be very well behaved and easy to open.  It was very extensible and I had to be pretty careful when opening the dough.  No knuckles necessary.  Just patting it open and a little tossing of the dough from one hand to the other.  One dough had one very small thin spot.

The first pie was sliced mozzarella, then sauce, then sausage and roasted garlic and finally drizzled with a little garlic oil.  The second pie was made with sauce, then basil and then shredded mozzarella.

The pies were baked at about 725 for 2:30 each.  The floor was a little hotter for the first.  You can see how the pies came out larger than plan in that they fully cover (and more) the plates, which are exactly 13 inches.  This relates to the extensibility of the dough.

We enjoyed both pies a lot.  The dough was tasty, easy to prepare and easy to work with.    I can easily see this being my “go-to” dough when making a yeast based pie.  However, I suspect that my primary approach will remain an approach using my sourdough starters.  We really like the flavors.  I note that one of Tony’s recipes calls for a combination of sourdough and commercial yeast.  I often bake pies that way and I am sure to give that a try.

This is a great book and there is much to learn and try.  I am glad I have it.

Pictures to follow.

- Mitch

« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 10:22:27 PM by mitchjg »
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: My First Pies Master Dough with Starter from the Pizza Bible
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2014, 10:15:49 PM »
Pictures Continued. - Mitch

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Offline Donjo911

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Re: My First Pies Master Dough with Starter from the Pizza Bible
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2014, 10:24:00 PM »
Mitch,
As always - GREAT looking pizza!  I love how you follow all the details and the way you communicate your thoughts and results is brilliant and fantastic.  That is a great looking pizza!  :drool: (also like your aforementioned thoughts on dressing pizza on the lighter side) I planned to buy the book this weekend and look forward to learning more about TG's experience.  Thanks for adding a lot of value to the hows and whys of the benefits of this book! Thank you! :)
Cheers,
Don
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Offline dsissitka

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Nicely done!

It was very extensible and I had to be pretty careful when opening the dough.

I noticed that too.

Using Tony's kneading technique I average one... revolution? every four seconds. I've tried kneading for three, six, and ten minutes. Three minutes was just as you described. Six wasn't much better. Ten felt pretty good. I could stretch it with my knuckles without worrying.

Do you plan on sticking with three minutes of hand kneading?

Offline mitchjg

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Mitch,
As always - GREAT looking pizza!  I love how you follow all the details and the way you communicate your thoughts and results is brilliant and fantastic.  That is a great looking pizza!  :drool: (also like your aforementioned thoughts on dressing pizza on the lighter side) I planned to buy the book this weekend and look forward to learning more about TG's experience.  Thanks for adding a lot of value to the hows and whys of the benefits of this book! Thank you! :)
Cheers,
Don

Nicely done!

Don / dsisstka:  Thanks!  I enjoy the book and am glad it all turned out as it did.  Always learning....

I noticed that too.

Using Tony's kneading technique I average one... revolution? every four seconds. I've tried kneading for three, six, and ten minutes. Three minutes was just as you described. Six wasn't much better. Ten felt pretty good. I could stretch it with my knuckles without worrying.

Do you plan on sticking with three minutes of hand kneading?

I was about to write you a note on this in the other thread (malted barley). When you mentioned the elasticity / extensibility balance - you meant that you wanted more elasticity, less extensibility, right?  So, you found that with much more hand kneading, the elasticity was much better?!  And, that is after using a stand mixer (I did) or did you do the whole thing by hand?

Thanks for the tip, I will definitely try that next time.  I was wondering if the cause was too much fermentation time or something like that.  I can easily see that it may be that more kneading is in order, given the minimal mix time.  I found the amount of extensibility to be right there "at the edge."  It was fine but any more could have caused problems.

- Mitch
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Offline dsissitka

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When you mentioned the elasticity / extensibility balance - you meant that you wanted more elasticity, less extensibility, right?  So, you found that with much more hand kneading, the elasticity was much better?!  And, that is after using a stand mixer (I did) or did you do the whole thing by hand?

Yes, yes, and I used my Bosch Compact. I tried using my KitchenAid with spiral hook but it didn't work very well. Following Tony's procedure I'd have to add water and then I'd end up with really sticky dough.

Good luck!

Edit: Typos everywhere.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 11:40:37 PM by dsissitka »

Offline tinroofrusted

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I guess this is as good a place as any to post some photos of pizzas I made this weekend with Tony's "master dough recipe" for NY style pizzas. I made the dough last Tuesday and balled in Friday. I took the dough balls out of the refrigerator at about 9am this morning and made the pizzas at about 12:30 to 1:30pm. I think the dough balls could have used another hour or two to warm up, since the dough was slightly tight upon opening. I followed Tony's recipe pretty closely with the exception that I fermented the dough for four days instead of two. I should note that I used the 50-50 "starter" (a term I'm not that comfortable using because to me it connotes sourdough), which was mixed on Monday evening.  I baked the pizzas in my Blackstone oven. I really tried to keep the temperature down to around 500F or so as I was looking for an approximately 6 minute bake for these pies.  As for toppings, I made one with Brussels sprouts, onion, red pepper, mozzarella, salt, pepper and olive oil, and the other with dinosaur kale, pistachios, red onion, mozzarella, Parmesan and a bit of blue cheese. 

Overall I was very happy with the dough and the pizzas. Tony's recipe seems to be working very well for me.  I believe the addition of diastatic malt does provide the finished pizza with a slightly better texture and flavor.  I also really like fermenting the dough balls on a half sheet pan, something I had not done before. I usually put my dough balls in individual plastic containers. I find that the sheet pan allows the dough balls to open more naturally and they are easier to extract from the sheet pan than they are from the plastic container.  I also have been using Tony's recommended dusting mixture of 50-50 semolina and regular flour.  It is a good combination. 

Photos attached. 








Offline mitchjg

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tinroofrusted:

Notwithstanding the dough preparation - I need to compliment you on the toppings.  You did a nice / creative job.

With regards to the dough, given that you fermented the dough for so much longer than Tony's recipe calls for, did you cut back on the yeast or did you use the yeast level from the recipe.  With regards to the "starter", I don't know why it is not just being called a poolish - "a rose by any other name, etc."  But, okey dokey.

I was surprised you kept it "all the way down" to 500.  I would think that 550 or 600 would have been fine but it sounds like you had a bad experience.  I recall you mentioning burning at higher temperatures but I thought that was well into the 600s.

On the malt, did you use 2% low diastatic malt or did you use a higher drastic malt with a different amount in the recipe or ?

Great work,
Mitch
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Offline mkevenson

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TinRoof, thanks for the write up and pics! My first reaction to the pics was, " He made a pizza salad!". Very colorfull.
I bought 4 of those pizza knives once, used once, and misplaced once . Looks like the DBs proofed on the back of a cookie sheet. I am surprised they maintained their shape so well. Do all your pies cooked on the BS have such uniform bottom color?

Mark
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Offline tinroofrusted

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Mark and Mitch, thanks for your nice comments.  I am the lone carnivore in our house so I try to make pizzas that everyone can enjoy.  I might add a piece of sausage or pepperoni on a reheated slice sometimes.  Brussels sprouts are one of my favorite toppings anyway.  I did kind of make a salad in that I mixed up everything (including the cheeses) in a metal bowl and tossed it all with oil to get it fully coated and then just dumped the whole bowl on top of the pizza and spread the toppings around.

Regarding the bottom color, these pies had the best bottom color of any I've made in the Blackstone. I attribute that to the relatively low baking temperature in combination with the relatively high malt percentage. I did use the prescribed 2% diastatic malt. I'm not really sure if my diastatic malt is high or low diastatic, it doesn't specify on the package. I bought it at Surfas a while back.  I usually run the Blackstone around 650 or so which is too hot for this dough recipe, so I made sure that the bottom stone was at about 525 or so when I launched the pizza.  The second pizza was a bit hotter and I think that worked out better. Maybe 550 is perfect for this recipe in the Blackstone. 

These dough balls were 13 oz each. I think next time I will go down to 12 oz. and try to make the edge a bit less puffy. I like the puffy edge but maybe just a bit less of it would be better. 

Mark, I hope you find your pizza knives!  I really love mine. I only have one, which I got for Christmas a few years ago.  I use it quite a bit. 

Here's a photo of the kale pizza in front of the Blackstone. 

Regards,

TinRoof 


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Offline mitchjg

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Nice!

You may want to check on the malt, if it is possible.  The "low" diastatic in the cookbook seems to be relatively rare while the "regular" or "high" diastatic malt would be more common.  If you do not have the "low" then you may be adding 5 X the amount intended for the recipe.  That very well could be the cause of excessive burning.

Can I bug you about the yeast level you used?  ???

Thanks,
Mitch
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Offline Wazza McG

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When you made the pie base from the dough ball did you notice anything different from previous doughballs? 

I'm curious to know if you thought the gluten network was not as strong or not as elastic? or if you felt it was wetter than usual?  I have found that I do not need as much water when I use diastatic malt in my dough balls.  I read that you thought you pulled them out of the fridge possible too late and they were a bit tight.

Does the base of the cooked pizza have equal browning to the tops? Nice looking pies, well done  :drool:
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 08:31:14 PM by Wazza McG »
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline Essen1

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I guess this is as good a place as any to post some photos of pizzas I made this weekend with Tony's "master dough recipe" for NY style pizzas. I made the dough last Tuesday and balled in Friday. I took the dough balls out of the refrigerator at about 9am this morning and made the pizzas at about 12:30 to 1:30pm. I think the dough balls could have used another hour or two to warm up, since the dough was slightly tight upon opening. I followed Tony's recipe pretty closely with the exception that I fermented the dough for four days instead of two. I should note that I used the 50-50 "starter" (a term I'm not that comfortable using because to me it connotes sourdough), which was mixed on Monday evening.  I baked the pizzas in my Blackstone oven. I really tried to keep the temperature down to around 500F or so as I was looking for an approximately 6 minute bake for these pies.  As for toppings, I made one with Brussels sprouts, onion, red pepper, mozzarella, salt, pepper and olive oil, and the other with dinosaur kale, pistachios, red onion, mozzarella, Parmesan and a bit of blue cheese. 

Overall I was very happy with the dough and the pizzas. Tony's recipe seems to be working very well for me.  I believe the addition of diastatic malt does provide the finished pizza with a slightly better texture and flavor.  I also really like fermenting the dough balls on a half sheet pan, something I had not done before. I usually put my dough balls in individual plastic containers. I find that the sheet pan allows the dough balls to open more naturally and they are easier to extract from the sheet pan than they are from the plastic container.  I also have been using Tony's recommended dusting mixture of 50-50 semolina and regular flour.  It is a good combination. 

Photos attached.

Excellent, Tinroof!  :)

Great pies and some very nice toppings. Love it.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline tinroofrusted

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Last night (Friday) I baked up a batch of Tony G. NY master dough (without starter), but I fermented the batch for five days. Three days in bulk and two in balls.  The dough came out of the refrigerator yesterday afternoon at 3pm and was ready to go by the time I arrived at 4:00pm. The dough balls opened extremely easily (maybe a bit too easily). The pizzas rose beautifully in the Blackstone oven. A nice crisp bottom crust with a very tender and well developed interior.  The flavor was outstanding. Probably the tastiest pizzas I've made in memory. If I another five day dough I think I would leave it in bulk for four days and only one day in balls to see if the dough would retain a bit more elasticity.  It was still acceptable but it would have been easy to over-stretch. 

As I observed earlier, the dough recipe itself is more or less unremarkable save for the diastatic malt. I do give the malt credit for some of the flavor in the dough, but as I've been following the TG master recipe, I'm thinking that part of the success comes from just following the simple steps of the recipe pretty closely. Using ice water to keep the dough temp. down, holding the salt out until the end, not overmixing the dough, etc.  Anyway, I continue to be very happy with this recipe and plan to keep working to improve my results with it. 

The pizzas shown below are: 1:Brussels sprouts, tempeh, mozzarella; 2:Steak, green onion, endive, Trader Joe's Sambal Matah; 3: Steak, onion, mushroom, kale.
The sambal was a new product at Trader Joe's that I just found the other night. It's got peppers, lemongrass, garlic, shallots, and sweet chili sauce in sunflower oil. Very tasty on the pizza! 

The first pizza was launched a bit hot, maybe 650, which I knew was too hot so it got a bit singed. The second one was a bit cool, and the third one was perfect.  I find the Blackstone bakes better as it goes along. Better heat distribution I guess. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 11:33:48 PM by tinroofrusted »

Offline jvp123

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Mitch,
 
I received the Pizza Bible and am currently going thru it.  I've also tried to weed thru some threads on PM.com to glean some info.
I purchased the LDM from NY bakers today which should arrive in a couple days. 
I have always loved my Ischia SD and was planning on substituting it for Tony's Tiga at 20% which is a lot for me as I usually use 5% at RT. 
In terms of baking temps, Tony recommends 500F which I assume he does for those with weaker ovens and because of the LDM.  I was planning on going a bit hotter at 550-600 for a shorter time.

On question I have is if you you use the Preferment Pizza Dough Calc to come up with formulas and just add the 2% LDM as an extra ingredient not included in it?
Any other things you would suggest or recommend I look out for?  Are you even still using the malt and this process?

Best,
Jeff
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Offline mitchjg

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Hi Jeff

I have not yet used any malt using Tony's recipes.   He recommends not using it when baking over 650 and I baked in the 700s. 

With regard to the ischia, take a look at his Organic dough recipe.   It is with sd starter (his cultured from bran bu I doubt if matters).  I skipped the organic (just regular KABF) and skipped the other flour type.  I follow edge the proportions (including yeast) and also the workflow.  Came out great. 

Hope that helps. 

Mitch
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Offline jvp123

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Hi Jeff

I have not yet used any malt using Tony's recipes.   He recommends not using it when baking over 650 and I baked in the 700s. 

With regard to the ischia, take a look at his Organic dough recipe.   It is with sd starter (his cultured from bran bu I doubt if matters).  I skipped the organic (just regular KABF) and skipped the other flour type.  I follow edge the proportions (including yeast) and also the workflow.  Came out great. 

Hope that helps. 

Mitch

Oh ok - i thought maybe you tried a few pies in the regular oven to stay true to his method and tried the malt.  I'll be trying the master dough with Starter with my Ischia and malt at lower heat.  I may even try these in my oven on the steel and use a second stone I have instead of my BS. I'll report back with pics.
Thanks Mitch!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 12:27:14 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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One question I have is if you you use the Preferment Pizza Dough Calc to come up with formulas and just add the 2% LDM as an extra ingredient not included in it?
Jeff,

I only have access with my iPad and, hence, cannot see the details of the dough calculating tools, but I think you can go two ways with the LDM. You can just add the LDM and not worry about it or you can reduce the amount of flour by about 2% or maybe a bit less if the flour is already malted from the miller.

Peter

Offline mitchjg

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Oh ok - i thought maybe you tried a few pies in the regular oven to stay true to his method and tried the malt.  I'll be trying the master dough with Starter with my Ischia and malt at lower heat.  I may even try these in my oven on the steel and use a second stone I have instead of my BS. I'll report back with pics.
Thanks Mitch!

Not yet!   I thought I would during the December downpours ( no wfo use) but ended up fooling around with focaccia / Sicilian pies.  Then, when my oven took 3 hours to break 400, we needed to call "the guy".  I will probably give it a try soon.

Mitch
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Offline jvp123

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Jeff,

I only have access with my iPad and, hence, cannot see the details of the dough calculating tools, but I think you can go two ways with the LDM. You can just add the LDM and not worry about it or you can reduce the amount of flour by about 2% or maybe a bit less if the flour is already malted from the miller.

Peter

Thanks Peter!  I think i am just going to substitute the LDM for the sugar so I'll put the 2% there.  I noticed Jonas did that in one of his formulas and it made sense to me. 

It's basically the same thing you mentioned ... I think.  :-\


Jeff

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