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Offline starfish

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Pies too soft
« on: September 21, 2019, 02:47:19 PM »
Hi everyone,

I have the general problem that my pies are too soft: they are still raw in the inside when almost burned on the outside. I tried different recipes and hydration ratios (currently about 64 %), but it doesn't make much of a difference.

I'm baking in an Efeuno P134H at about 470 - 500 degree celsius. (Lower thermostat 450, upper 470). Of course I can reduce the problem when baking longer/at lower temperatures, but then the cornicone doesn't rise that much – and what would be the point of getting a special pizza oven when baking at lower temperatures anyway?

Did anyone have this problem as well and could give me some advice what to change?

Thanks a lot!

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2019, 03:06:45 PM »
What weight is the dough ball and what is the pizza diameter?

Offline scott r

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2019, 03:49:17 PM »
Make sure your not using a malted flour or one with enzymes.
You won't need anything in your dough but flour salt water yeast.
At these temps so no oil sugar etc. (but some get away with oil) 
Lower hydration will help for rawness the middle

If those ideas don't work you may need to get some biscotto di Sorrento   https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46211.0

Offline Yael

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2019, 08:24:51 PM »
You can also try a lower hydration to see the difference(s). With 12.5% protein Italian pizza flour, I have good results with 58-59% hydration for 24H RTF (including 22H or 23H in balls).
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline starfish

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2019, 11:13:57 AM »
Hey everyone,

I don't use any oil, sugar, malted flour – and I have the 3 cm biscotto already, so I'll try a lower hydration.

BTW: I'm using a little semolina to get the pie smoothly into the oven. Could that burn the bottom – or are there types of semolina which tend to burn earlier?

Thanks!

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2019, 12:52:12 PM »
What is your baking times?

Mine usually bake in 60-70 seconds, sometimes with a trip outside the oven for turning. I got the P134H too.

I set the upper thermostat to 50C below max for some time and 2-3 minutes before launching turn it to max. That gives a red-hot upper element when I launch. Bottom element I usually just put at 300C after having it on maximum for 30 minutes.

Cornicione size is affected by a number of things, oven least of all maybe. I would look at everything that happens from mixing up to launching for that particular detail.

What is your recipe and dough ball weight?

How does your bottom look?

Photos would also be useful.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline BackyardPizzaiolo

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2019, 01:37:20 PM »
You can also try a lower hydration to see the difference(s). With 12.5% protein Italian pizza flour, I have good results with 58-59% hydration for 24H RTF (including 22H or 23H in balls).

This reminds me of a question I was asking myself the other day. What's the point of doing a 2H bulk and then 22H in balls? Why not 100% in balls? Sorry for the hijack just a quick question for you Yael.

Offline Yael

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2019, 08:10:18 PM »
This reminds me of a question I was asking myself the other day. What's the point of doing a 2H bulk and then 22H in balls? Why not 100% in balls? Sorry for the hijack just a quick question for you Yael.

 :)
Among the reasons I know/remember, the interest of having a bulk ferment after kneading and before balling is to give a kick start to the yeast (as Tom often mentions, yeast activity creates heat, resulting in a faster activation during bulk ferment (too small of a bulk ferment will not make a difference)) - and also resting the dough which will be easier to make balls with. It can be 0.5H, 1H, 2 or 3 to me it doesn't really matter (well it can depend on RT or course, in theory 15°C will need a longer time than 30°C), it mostly depends how it's convenient (again, for me). My point was mainly that with lower hydration, your ball will keep a good shape even with such a long RTF in ball (VS higher hydration which will need a later balling), FWIW I posted an pic in my last thread:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59348.0;topicseen.
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Offline BackyardPizzaiolo

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2019, 10:32:37 AM »
:)
Among the reasons I know/remember, the interest of having a bulk ferment after kneading and before balling is to give a kick start to the yeast (as Tom often mentions, yeast activity creates heat, resulting in a faster activation during bulk ferment (too small of a bulk ferment will not make a difference)) - and also resting the dough which will be easier to make balls with. It can be 0.5H, 1H, 2 or 3 to me it doesn't really matter (well it can depend on RT or course, in theory 15°C will need a longer time than 30°C), it mostly depends how it's convenient (again, for me). My point was mainly that with lower hydration, your ball will keep a good shape even with such a long RTF in ball (VS higher hydration which will need a later balling), FWIW I posted an pic in my last thread:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59348.0;topicseen.

Cool I'll read your other thread

Offline starfish

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2019, 03:59:37 PM »
So here are some photos. I used TXCraig1's sourdough recipe https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20477.0 (shout-out to Balilla-vero for sending me some Ischia starter!): 62,5 % hydration, Caputo Blu Pizzeria – but without the controlled low temperature fermentation process (instead 24 + 3 hours at 20 degrees room temperature).
Lower heating on 400 degrees, upper on 500. Measured stone temperature when baking 550 degrees celsius.

As you see there are some big air pockets, which tend to burn very fast, so that's probably the main reason for not baking the pizza long enough?

Also there's a pretty big amount of fluid on the baked pizza (though I dry the mozarella and also use pretty dry tomato sauce).

Any ideas what to change?




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Offline Yael

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2019, 08:01:34 PM »
If you see big air bubbles while opening the dough you can pick them with your fingers.
Be careful with your sauce, we can see it on the rim! If it touches the peel you can live a disaster  ;D
It also seems that you could have baked longer.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline rdbedwards

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2019, 07:00:58 PM »
Judging by the photos, I think you may want to stretch the disc larger for the weight of the ball.  The cornicione has too much dough in it and it isn't cooking through by the time the rest of the pie is cooked.  Of course this will result in a smaller cornicione, but not necessarily by much, but it will be less dense.
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Offline starfish

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Re: Pies too soft
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2019, 07:07:39 AM »
Thanks, will try that. Next attempt was much better already (same dough, additional fermentation 20 h fridge and 3 h room)...

« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 10:09:30 AM by Pete-zza »

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