Author Topic: How One Seattle Baker Uses Infused 'Yeast Water' To Leaven Bread (Read 27199 times)

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #120 on:** February 05, 2015, 11:48:55 AM »

Interesting. I think I'm going to stick to regular SD.

norma427 · « **Reply #121 on:** February 05, 2015, 12:23:54 PM »

Quote from: TXCraig1 on February 05, 2015, 11:48:55 AM

Interesting. I think I'm going to stick to regular SD.

Craig,

I think I am going to stick to regular SD too.

I am still trying to understand if my hydration was too high for the Daisy organic bread flour, if the amount of malt I added to the whole bag of flour was too much, if somehow rosemary does something to a dough, or something else happened along the way. I never want to mess around with a dough like that again.

Norma

steelplayer · « **Reply #122 on:** February 05, 2015, 01:10:41 PM »

I am still going to experiment with my basil starter... I returned from a week in Honolulu and took the starter out of the refer to feed it, within about 15 minutes the lid was ready to blow off. I stirred it down and put it back in the refer as my schedule won't let me make bread or pizza for a couple of days. But I will try again.

Tom

norma427 · « **Reply #123 on:** February 05, 2015, 01:49:06 PM »

Quote from: steelplayer on February 05, 2015, 01:10:41 PM

I am still going to experiment with my basil starter... I returned from a week in Honolulu and took the starter out of the refer to feed it, within about 15 minutes the lid was ready to blow off. I stirred it down and put it back in the refer as my schedule won't let me make bread or pizza for a couple of days. But I will try again.

Tom

Tom,

Good to hear your are still going to experiment with your basil starter. Will be looking forward to your results!

Norma

steelplayer · « **Reply #124 on:** February 06, 2015, 12:12:05 PM »

So... one last shot at infused yeast water. I thought my beast shot was with apples, reasoning that one can brew hard cider with nothing more than unpasteurized apple cider. Anyway here it is, an organic fuji in water. Will see what happens.

Tom

Pete-zza · « **Reply #125 on:** February 06, 2015, 04:10:48 PM »

Tom and Norma,

I don't know how relevant it is, but some time ago, I and another member, widespreadpizza (Marc), conducted a series of experiments in which we used no commercial yeast whatsoever, and relied only on what we believed to be natural yeast from the flour and surroundings. The dough is all cases was fermented at room temperature, both in the hot summer months and also in winter. You can see Marc's results with his dough starting at Reply 77 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78742#msg78742. The dough shown in Marc's photos had no commercial yeast whatsoever. Marc's finished pizza is shown in Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78756#msg78756.

I conducted my own tests using no commercial yeast and described the results starting at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78743#msg78743. Photos of my finished pizzas that were based on doughs with no commercial yeast, along with the formulations I used, can be seen at Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78779#msg78779, Reply 121 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg79287#msg79287, Reply 124 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg89301#msg89301 and Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg92094#msg92094.

All along, Marc and I believed that our doughs were fermenting and rising due to that action of wild yeast. It wasn't until another member, in another thread, mentioned that it was more likely that it was a species of bacteria that was causing the fermentation and dough rise. I remembered the member's name (cornicione54) but since he had requested that his account be closed, he could no longer be found in the forum's membership rolls to be able to search his posts, even though the posts still existed. So, I did a Google search to see if I could find the name of the bacterium that cornicione54 had mentioned. I found it at page 2 of the document at http://web.oranim.ac.il/courses/microbiology/Bacterial%20Fermentation%20Nature.pdf. The name of the bacterium was leuconostoc and, as shown in that document, it appears that that bacterium can produce carbon dioxide, which is the gas that causes dough to rise, and ethanol. Having found the name of the bacterium, that led me to posts by cornicione54 at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12390.msg117722#msg117722, at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12545.msg119873#msg119873 and at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.msg109001;topicseen#msg109001.

I mention the above only because I wonder whether the leuconostoc bacterium might be at play in what you both have been doing, or attempting to do. From what I have read, the leuconostoc bacterium can be negated by using an acid like pineapple juice. But if there is no acid when using something like basil or rosemary, or one of the other materials mentioned earlier in this post, it may still be possible to get a dough to rise, whether natural yeast are or are not present. So, one might be led to believe that a dough is rising because of a natural yeast when maybe it is the leuconostoc bacterium that is doing it.

Peter

EDIT (1/18/21): For the Wayback Machine version of the inoperative oranim article, see https://web.archive.org/web/20140908223508/http://web.oranim.ac.il/courses/microbiology/Bacterial%20Fermentation%20Nature.pdf

norma427 · « **Reply #126 on:** February 06, 2015, 06:44:40 PM »

Quote from: steelplayer on February 06, 2015, 12:12:05 PM

So... one last shot at infused yeast water. I thought my beast shot was with apples, reasoning that one can brew hard cider with nothing more than unpasteurized apple cider. Anyway here it is, an organic fuji in water. Will see what happens.

Tom

Tom,

It great to hear your are taking one last shot at an infused yeast water.

You are probably right that your best shot is with apples. I will be looking forward to see what happens.

I don't know if I am going to make another attempt or not. It gets discouraging.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #127 on:** February 06, 2015, 07:42:39 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 06, 2015, 04:10:48 PM

Tom and Norma,

I don't know how relevant it is, but some time ago, I and another member, widespreadpizza (Marc), conducted a series of experiments in which we used no commercial yeast whatsoever, and relied only on what we believed to be natural yeast from the flour and surroundings. The dough is all cases was fermented at room temperature, both in the hot summer months and also in winter. You can see Marc's results with his dough starting at Reply 77 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78742#msg78742. The dough showed in Marc's photos had no commercial yeast whatsoever. Marc's finished pizza is shown in Reply 82 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78756#msg78756.

I conducted my own tests using no commercial yeast and described the results starting at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78743#msg78743. Photos of my finished pizzas that were based on doughs with no commercial yeast, along with the formulations I used, can be seen at Reply 84 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78779#msg78779, Reply 121 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg79287#msg79287, Reply 124 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg89301#msg89301 and Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg92094#msg92094.

All along, Marc and I believed that our doughs were fermenting and rising due to that action of wild yeast. It wasn't until another member, in another thread, mentioned that it was more likely that it was a species of bacteria that was causing the fermentation and dough rise. I remembered the member's name (cornicione54) but since he had requested that his account be closed, he could no longer be found in the forum's membership rolls. So, I did a Google search to see if I could find the name of the bacterium that cornicione54 had mentioned. I found it at page 2 of the document at http://web.oranim.ac.il/courses/microbiology/Bacterial%20Fermentation%20Nature.pdf. The name of the bacterium was leuconostoc and, as shown in that document, it appears that that bacterium can produce carbon dioxide, which is the gas that causes dough to rise, and ethanol. Having found the name of the bacterium, that led me to posts by cornicione54 at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12390.msg117722#msg117722, at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12545.msg119873#msg119873 and at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.msg109001;topicseen#msg109001.

I mention the above only because I wonder whether the leuconostoc bacterium might be at play in what you both have been doing, or attempting to do. From what I have read, the leuconostoc bacterium can be negated by using an acid like pineapple juice. But if there is no acid when using something like basil or rosemary, or one of the other materials mentioned earlier in this post, it may still be possible to get a dough to rise, whether natural yeast are or are not present. So, one might be led to believe that a dough is rising because of a natural yeast when maybe it is the leuconostoc bacterium that is doing it.

Peter

Peter,

I recall when Marc and your were conducting the series of experiments which you both used no commercial yeast, and thought that was very interesting. I didn't recall though that cornicione54 mentioned that is was likely that a species of bacteria was causing the fermentation and dough rise. You might be right that the leuconostoc bacterium might be coming into play in what Tom and I have been attempting to do.

The link to this article also says there is very little living yeast floating in the air. http://kitchenscience.sci-toys.com/biology I also read about making sauerkraut before and think it might be the leuconostoc bacterium that ferments sauerkraut.

I wonder if I would try grapes in a water infusion what would happen. Any suggestions? Also, I added 1% of malt to the Daisy flour. Do you think that made the dough slack, or do you think it might have been because I used 100% of the rosemary infusion to replace the water?

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #128 on:** February 07, 2015, 10:27:36 AM »

Quote from: norma427 on February 06, 2015, 07:42:39 PM

I wonder if I would try grapes in a water infusion what would happen. Any suggestions? Also, I added 1% of malt to the Daisy flour. Do you think that made the dough slack, or do you think it might have been because I used 100% of the rosemary infusion to replace the water?

Norma

Norma,

I'm not sure what was going on with your concoction. If the Daisy flour was unmalted to begin with, I wouldn't think that adding 1% malt (I am assuming the Mauri low-diastatic malt) would cause the overly slack and wet dough that you got. Maybe there is something in the rosemary itself that might have been responsible. According to Wikipedia, rosemary contains several phytochemicals in the form of acids, as discussed at the bottom of the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary.

Peter

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #129 on:** February 07, 2015, 10:40:31 AM »

The rosemary dough was also in ball form for a long time too, right? The gluten was probably really relaxed on it's own.

norma427 · « **Reply #130 on:** February 07, 2015, 12:49:15 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 07, 2015, 10:27:36 AM

Norma,

I'm not sure what was going on with your concoction. If the Daisy flour was unmalted to begin with, I wouldn't think that adding 1% malt (I am assuming the Mauri low-diastatic malt) would cause the overly slack and wet dough that you got. Maybe there is something in the rosemary itself that might have been responsible. According to Wikipedia, rosemary contains several phytochemicals in the form of acids, as discussed at the bottom of the article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts. The Daisy flour was not malted, and yes I did use the Mauri low-diastatic malt. You might be right that there was something in the rosemary that made the dough slack.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #131 on:** February 07, 2015, 12:51:40 PM »

Quote from: TXCraig1 on February 07, 2015, 10:40:31 AM

The rosemary dough was also in ball form for a long time too, right? The gluten was probably really relaxed on it's own.

Craig,

The rosemary dough ball kept getting slack, but it was in a somewhat ball form for a little while. I tried to reball in flour a couple of times since I first mixed it. Each time it got slack again and wouldn't keep a ball form for very long.

Norma

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #132 on:** February 07, 2015, 01:38:58 PM »

My guess is with Peter then that it was something in the rosemary.

steelplayer · « **Reply #133 on:** February 08, 2015, 01:22:38 PM »

Two days later and just a small amount of bubbles. I am not going to add sugar, this one lives or dies on it's own...

Tom

norma427 · « **Reply #134 on:** February 08, 2015, 02:16:11 PM »

Quote from: steelplayer on February 08, 2015, 01:22:38 PM

Two days later and just a small amount of bubbles. I am not going to add sugar, this one lives or dies on it's own...

Tom

At least you got a small amount of bubbles in two days. Lol, about your apple infusion living or dying on its own. Keep us posted. I hope it lives and bubbles a lot.

Norma

steelplayer · « **Reply #135 on:** February 10, 2015, 11:42:39 PM »

This might be the one... lots of bubbles.

Chicago Bob · « **Reply #136 on:** February 10, 2015, 11:51:08 PM »

Quote from: steelplayer on February 08, 2015, 01:22:38 PM

Two days later and just a small amount of bubbles. I am not going to add sugar, this one lives or dies on it's own...

Tom

A red headed step-child!

norma427 · « **Reply #137 on:** February 11, 2015, 07:34:59 AM »

Quote from: steelplayer on February 10, 2015, 11:42:39 PM

This might be the one... lots of bubbles.

Tom,

Great to hear!

I am anxious to see what happens.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #138 on:** February 11, 2015, 07:36:15 AM »

Quote from: Chicago Bob on February 10, 2015, 11:51:08 PM

A red headed step-child!

Bob,

Norma

steelplayer · « **Reply #139 on:** February 14, 2015, 12:35:41 PM »

OK... so it is do or die time. I decided to make bread not pizza. I am starting with a room temp sponge, thinking that would be probably what the Seattle baker would do. One:I think it will give the infused water a chance to reproduce without salt and massive amounts of gluten Two: I won't waste a lot of ingredients if it doesn't work

Anyway here is the freshly mixed sponge, I'll be back from work in 10 hours and see what if anything happens. There is a strong apple fragrance in the mix.

Tom