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Author Topic: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza  (Read 101160 times)

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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2015, 02:32:47 PM »
Ok, well the way to find out is to try one pizza with at the lower temp for longer.  That's easy enough to do.  I'll set it at 475 or 500 (suggest a temp, please) next time and I'll check it starting at 9 min, and see when its done, and see how it comes out.   I'll be able to tell by the browning on top and the beginnings of char underneath, I think.

Like I said, I was just a little kid with his nose at the glass in the beginning, and I probably watched maybe 20 or 25 times from about 1962 or 1963 till about 1970, and maybe once or twice in the late 1970's or early 1980's, and in the late 1980's I was at the new place in Plum Boro once but we were off in a side room, so didn't watch and can't recall if Vincent was still there then or not.

vtsteve...  Maybe thats why he seems like he's needing to cut the dough out, not just scrape it up on a scraper in the video...

At Ardmore blvd, in the original building, I think the dough was on boards or in tubs right there below his work area.  I never saw anyone bring dough out of a cooler or anything, but I can't recall at the moment if there was a mixer in plain view or not, but there couldn't have been a basement, and only the area to the left of the door was where he worked.  to the right of the door was tables to sit and eat.  They added onto it later, but I don't recall when.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2015, 04:48:58 PM »

  Check out this Vinnie Pie!!  Comes with a straw.   :drool:
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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2015, 05:30:34 PM »
Looks like double pepperoni and I'm guessing the crust rim is about 1/3 wider than the way Vincent made them.  Vincent put the sauce on fast, and probably unintentionally would splatter sauce up on the rim area, which I don't see any of in the pic, and that would give you a sweet, spicy, crunchy bubble area on the rim that I would hunt for, and I would try to get THAT piece.

Like I said, Vincent did not chinz on the toppings.  If you paid for double something, you REALLY did get it.  Of all the times I was there, I don't ever remember anyone complaining about their pizza, and that was back before Burger King's "Have it your way" ads.  It was just soooo good.

Offline Essen1

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2015, 06:03:16 PM »
Bob,

I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that Vincent's pies were baked under 500° or even at 500° and get the kinda of browning and charring. My guess is the oven/s run at a very minimum of 525° if not higher. The 12 minute bake time is bogus, even given the humongous amount of toppings. 8-10 mins seems more like it.

It also looks like it's moderately high in hydration because the dough itself, and dough balls, look like they have some good weight to it, maybe 64-65% hydro. Yeast might also be a tad higher to get that huge oven spring.

Speaking of oven spring, if you want a crust or cornicione to blow up like that, you have to have the adequate temps and 450° or even 500° won't cut it. The bake's gotta be quick and fast in the beginning before they move the pies to a different spot in the oven.

Those are just my observations, though. This has inspired me to give this dough a shot and maybe I'll be able to replicate the aesthetics, looks and crunch of it. We'll see...
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Essen1

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2015, 10:07:34 PM »
Whipped up a high hydration emergency dough...700 grams for a 16" pies to get the "Vincent Effect"  :)

Gonna be an "Everything-but-the-sink" pie

Let's see how it comes out.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2015, 10:28:53 PM »
That certainly is a LOT of WIDE rim on that thing...   1.54 lbs of dough...

Vincent was alive and there, its obvious from the pics, when they changed to the BIG rimmed "Vinnie Pie", so I guess I owe it to myself to give that a try here too, and get people's comments to see if they like it better.  I'm a bread lover anyway, and I've noticed my son wanting extra sauce to dip his crusts in, LOL.

Anyway, I ordered a made in China scale good to 5000 grams off ebay so I can weigh things each batch for more consistency.

I think I will cut my recipe down to 1 or 2 pies at a time till I've got it down pat.  Right now I make 4 dough balls per batch, put them in the fridge, and make each one into a loaf of bread, 4 or 6 pitas, a pizza, or 4 rolls, depending on what people want to eat that day.  I plan to lean towards whatever makes the best pizza, and will adapt it somehow to the other purposes...

Hope it comes out good.  Let us know what you put int the dough and how it tasted, etc, please.

PS: The times my oven has been under 525 have been trouble with crust if I remember correctly.  That's why I crank it to the max and give it an hour to preheat.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:33:07 PM by BobC »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2015, 10:32:23 PM »
Looks like double pepperoni and I'm guessing the crust rim is about 1/3 wider than the way Vincent made them.  Vincent put the sauce on fast, and probably unintentionally would splatter sauce up on the rim area, which I don't see any of in the pic, and that would give you a sweet, spicy, crunchy bubble area on the rim that I would hunt for, and I would try to get THAT piece.

Like I said, Vincent did not chinz on the toppings.  If you paid for double something, you REALLY did get it.  Of all the times I was there, I don't ever remember anyone complaining about their pizza, and that was back before Burger King's "Have it your way" ads.  It was just soooo good.

   Bob, the pic is from 2009.  http://www.photoblog.com/TommyBowser/2009/07/19/

 That baby has scrooms galore on it to...she's a water park!  :)
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 10:34:32 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Essen1

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2015, 10:32:37 PM »
That certainly is a LOT of WIDE rim on that thing...   1.54 lbs of dough...

Vincent was alive and there, its obvious from the pics, when they changed to the BIG rimmed "Vinnie Pie", so I guess I owe it to myself to give that a try here too, and get people's comments to see if they like it better.  I'm a bread lover anyway, and I've noticed my son wanting extra sauce to dip his crusts in, LOL.

Anyway, I ordered a made in China scale good to 5000 grams off ebay so I can weigh things each batch for more consistency.

I think I will cut my recipe down to 1 or 2 pies at a time till I've got it down pat.  Right now I make 4 dough balls per batch, put them in the fridge, and make each one into a loaf of bread, 4 or 6 pitas, a pizza, or 4 rolls, depending on what people want to eat that day.  I plan to lean towards whatever makes the best pizza, and will adapt it somehow to the other purposes...

Bob,

I'll post the formula later, after the bake...IF it works out  ;D
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Essen1

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2015, 10:35:09 PM »
   Bob, the pic is from 2009.  http://www.photoblog.com/TommyBowser/2009/07/19/

I think the man died in 2010 at age 86, after almost 5 decades in business. BTW, he got his recipe from a relative who owned a pizza biz in San Francisco.

Interesting to say the least.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2015, 10:40:03 PM »
   Bob, the pic is from 2009.  http://www.photoblog.com/TommyBowser/2009/07/19/

 That baby has scrooms galore on it to...she's a water park!  :)

And he just says pepperoni, not double pepperoni.  Vincent stopped making them in around 2005 from what I read, and I think my Dad told me he was baking them out in Plum Boro, after that one opened. 

Based on the smiles I'm sure it must have tasted great, but that's quite a pool of grease/mushroom juice, IMO.

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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2015, 10:45:52 PM »
I think the man died in 2010 at age 86, after almost 5 decades in business. BTW, he got his recipe from a relative who owned a pizza biz in San Francisco.

Interesting to say the least.

Yes, the obituary was from 2010 saying age 85, and I heard he had come from San Francisco in 1947 but didn't know about the relative or the origins of the recipe.

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2015, 11:59:14 PM »
This thread has a good Vincent's discussion and cross section picture of the crust. It looks like bread.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34002.0

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2015, 12:38:53 AM »
Yes, I'm pretty sure they changed the crust and toppings at least since Vincent did the video at the beginning of this thread, which was almost exactly how I remembered it. 

I will try to find out when the video aired...

It looks like the series started in 2005, so since Vincent stopped making pizza around then, the show must of been taped towards the end of Vincent's pizza tossing days.

Personally, I wasn't really looking for that much of a crust.  I'm not saying its bad, because I never had it, but I do like my toppings on more of my pizza than that, if someone were to ask me.  I did like the flavor of his crust a lot, but that is just a tremendous amount of crust.  What is more important to me are those bubbles with the caramelized sauce and a few stray shards of cheese on them.  Things like that and the flavor of his crust were the defining difference between his pizzas and what you can get at any good pizza place.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:49:05 AM by BobC »

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2015, 08:23:32 AM »
There is a video referenced from September 2014 in the thread I linked to in post 52 above.  The video link is below.

http://m.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/video/sxZ3A3cDokfrytPL5LkGlHOFiAbDpYEa?autoplay=1&r=full#ooid=sxZ3A3cDokfrytPL5LkGlHOFiAbDpYEa

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2015, 08:59:29 AM »
Bob,

I really have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that Vincent's pies were baked under 500° or even at 500° and get the kinda of browning and charring. My guess is the oven/s run at a very minimum of 525° if not higher. The 12 minute bake time is bogus, even given the humongous amount of toppings. 8-10 mins seems more like it.

It also looks like it's moderately high in hydration because the dough itself, and dough balls, look like they have some good weight to it, maybe 64-65% hydro. Yeast might also be a tad higher to get that huge oven spring.

Speaking of oven spring, if you want a crust or cornicione to blow up like that, you have to have the adequate temps and 450° or even 500° won't cut it. The bake's gotta be quick and fast in the beginning before they move the pies to a different spot in the oven.

Those are just my observations, though. This has inspired me to give this dough a shot and maybe I'll be able to replicate the aesthetics, looks and crunch of it. We'll see...

I don't know where you're seeing char. There is some excess browning on some of the pizzas I have seen, but that looks like browning from dough ingredients and bubbles to me; not high temperature. I agree that the hydration is probably somewhere around 65%.

When I first read the post I quoted above, I thought Mike may have made some valid points that contradicted things I have said. But now that I've thought about it, I'm not so sure. I still feel like a lot of what I've said, if not all of what I've said, adds up and makes sense. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we'll find out. But if I am wrong, I'm OK with that and I'll probably learn from it.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2015, 09:43:40 AM »
Primerib,

Nice catch!  I hadn't seen that.  I was a little bit like that lady, where if/when I got back, I'd go to Vincent's for pizza if I got the chance, but I haven't been back there since the last of my family left that area in the late 1990's, and no, I don't try to drag home pizza 600 miles for my friends to try, LOL.  I'll make it myself instead!

The "Vinnie Pie" looks to me like your 1 1/2 lbs of dough pizza, and I would guess that they would have used Vincent's dough and sauce and it looks like they made it smaller with the same or even a little more toppings compressed into a smaller area, leaving a wider rim.

I didn't know he had a shop in Braddock until I found things about it on the web.  It wasn't a nicer area back when I was there, so I generally never went there.

I think from the video I think it implies that the dough doesn't get refrigerated to rise.  The other thing I noticed is that soft, jellyfish like texture of the dough when the guy is cutting it, and that reminds me exactly of what I'd see Vincent plop up onto the counter when he'd make a pizza, and the texture of his crust was something that I really liked, so I think next round I'll kick it up higher to 68% moisture, and reduce my yeast a bit, but go with about 3/4 tsp per lb, and give that a try to see if i can get as soft of dough balls as I saw there, and see how it does, and I guess adjust from there.   And given the evidence of the past couple days, I think I'll increase the molasses a tad and go back to regular sugar instead of the malt, and go with a warm, room temperature, shorter rise to try to replicate Vincent's dough better.  And I'm going to cut my recipe to 1 or 2 dough balls till I'm satisfied that I've got it as good as its going to get.

Ryan,

Look at the pizzas at the end of the video on page 1 of this thread again and just watch the last 30 seconds at 1/2 speed with the volume turned up and the screen zoomed, and you can see and hear the crunches as he cuts them.  One thing I do remember is dark brown spots on the bottom here and there.  Myself, I didn't like them if they were black, but dark brown spots were definitely a "good" thing.  Maybe I'll make some 1/3 lb dough balls and make one night of smaller pizzas at different temperatures to see what effect they would have on the results.  LOL, or maybe you can try it and tell us what works best for a soft dough like that?   

PS: IMO, the newer "Vinnie Pie" style might use a NY Style dough, but I don't think I'd want to try to call that a NY style pizza.  His original ones would be at the very outer fringes of what a New Yorker would like, and I know that because I had a friend from there who ate Vincent's original style with me, and took me to NY for pizza one weekend!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 09:50:01 AM by BobC »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2015, 10:43:56 AM »
Ryan,

Look at the pizzas at the end of the video on page 1 of this thread again and just watch the last 30 seconds at 1/2 speed with the volume turned up and the screen zoomed, and you can see and hear the crunches as he cuts them.  One thing I do remember is dark brown spots on the bottom here and there.  Myself, I didn't like them if they were black, but dark brown spots were definitely a "good" thing.  Maybe I'll make some 1/3 lb dough balls and make one night of smaller pizzas at different temperatures to see what effect they would have on the results.  LOL, or maybe you can try it and tell us what works best for a soft dough like that?   

PS: IMO, the newer "Vinnie Pie" style might use a NY Style dough, but I don't think I'd want to try to call that a NY style pizza.  His original ones would be at the very outer fringes of what a New Yorker would like, and I know that because I had a friend from there who ate Vincent's original style with me, and took me to NY for pizza one weekend!

The crunch you hear when he cuts the pizzas is one thing I mentioned earlier in the thread, and it is one of the biggest reasons why I feel like a lower bake temperature may be appropriate (along with all the other hints, like the fact that there are at least three ovens at this place, which is not necessary at all if you bake at high temperatures). My experience says crunch more likely results from baking at a low temperature for a long time, rather than baking at a high temperature for a short time.

We all know this is a very high hydration dough (compared to almost every other commercially available pizza). Does anybody really think such a high hydration dough would have so much crunch if baked at a high temperature for a considerably shorter time than the "12-15 minutes" he shared in the video?

Judging by the looks of the pizzas I've seen from this place, the crust seems to bear some resemblance to the crust of the pizza in my current profile pic, which is a Giordano's style clone attempt. The pizza in my profile picture baked for 35 or 40 minutes at 465°, and it had a considerable amount of crunch and chew, as well as some softness. Due to the mass of the pizza in my picture, I had no choice but to bake at well below 500°, because if I hadn't, the outside of the pizza would have blackened long before the inside of the pizza was even close to being done. Vincent's pizzas may not have anywhere near as much mass as the pizza in my picture, but they have a lot more mass than most other pizzas. It requires time for massive pizzas to bake all the way through. And it doesn't happen at high temperatures.

One factor I may have possibly overlooked is the fact that I used considerably lower-hydration dough for the pizza in my picture. Also, that dough had no sugar in it, specifically because my first attempt at making this style had something like 2% sugar and turned out very dark; way too dark; burned.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2015, 11:00:57 AM »
There are various threads on this forum discussing Vincent's and in one of them, someone claims Vincent bakes at 650f. I am leaning towards that theory as the rim bubbles are black in some of the pics and I don't see that happening at a lower temp.

Does anyone have a picture of the bottom of the pie?  That could shed some light on cooking temp and sugar content.

Also, a lot of the Google pics and one pic in this thread show a wet mess on the pizza pan. I am guessing that is from moisture releasing from the toppings.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2015, 11:26:46 AM »
Here's a post from Peter in another thread about this place: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34002.msg338314#msg338314 . Last I checked, Peter is a pretty gosh-darn reliable source. And even when he speculates about things, they are likely to be true. In the linked post, he indicates that molasses may be an ingredient, which agrees with what Bob has been saying. Also in that post, he speculates that Vincent's pizzas bake for quite a long time. Which Vincent himself seems to have confirmed, and which has been my position as well, mostly independently of what Vincent said.
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2015, 12:06:51 PM »
I have no pic, as it was decades ago, and I am not really looking for those "New style" burnt offerings or "wet messes", LOL.  My parents would typically get pepperoni and mushroom, or sausage, and sometimes there would be some pepperoni and cheese grease in the middle, but I NEVER recall a puddle or pool of liquids that was soup like in the more recent pics.

The best slices from his pizzas had brown and dark brown spots on the bottom when they were "just right"  those same spots could also be found on the outside of the rim.  And if there was a little sauce and or cheese kind of spilled on it and a bubble, and cheese that was spotty browned,  us kids would fight for those slices, because those were the "perfect" ones :)

If there was a black spot, and sometimes there was, I would avoid that slice because they had more of a burnt taste than a carmelized taste.

His dough slightly different sweetness than other places, but not real sweet, and a slight saltiness, and the bottom was literally crispy and made a crunch as you bit into it, as did the top of the crust, maybe to a lesser degree, and when you took a bite, what was left would probably sping back up.  The crust was good enough to eat by itself, and was never wasted.

The only flaw in the crust, IMO, was that sometimes you'd get a little of that flour taste off the bottom.  I've solved that with my cornmeal and semolina mixture to sprinkle on the peel instead of flour.

In my efforts, it seems the hotter the oven better it comes out, and 8 or 9 minutes is about right.  After reading the thread ryan added, I think I'll stay with my overall sugar percentage, but up the molasses component of it to 1% and see if it tastes better or worse, and go from there.

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