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Author Topic: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza  (Read 102375 times)

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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2015, 07:36:32 PM »
Well, the dough itself was a partial success.

Crust flavor was great.

Pizzas were smaller, and my son said it had too much cheese.

I got bubbles, but not the big ones.  Crust was pretty thin at the rim, probably from me trying to make to large a pizza from the smaller dough ball.

The texture of one pizza was perfect, it was on the hotter lower rack.

The one on the upper rack, the bottom didn't get done well enough, and so it wasn't browned and crispy on the bottom, and I left it in an extra 3 minutes or so till the toppings were definitely done, but the bottom didn't brown right.

Perhaps part of the big bubbles issue is caused by the smaller dough ball.  You guys were right that the 8 oz would be hard to toss.  I didn't even try it.   The dough was quite soft, so I was lucky not to have any major structural problems.  It was satiny smooth and easily stretched very thin.

And lastly, the smaller pizza broke my 16" stone into 3 pieces.    :(  Oh well...


Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2015, 11:13:32 PM »
I think I'll take the rest of the dough and make bread or rolls out of it, and go back to 1 lb dough balls.  The 8 oz change was a mistake.

I think I will also up the yeast a bit, and try the 1 hr batch rise before making the "patties".

And from now on I'll only go with maximum oven temp and only use the bottom rack.

Live and learn.

Anyone know what kinds of tiles would work best if I was to replace the stone with them?

PS: In retrospect, I should have known better than to change a bunch of variables.  That was dumb and I need to step back and get back to familiar territory.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 12:11:42 AM by BobC »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2015, 09:42:35 AM »
Looks good.

It wasn't the pizza that broke the stone. It was most likely just a cheap stone. This is nature's way of teaching you not to use a 1/4" thick stone. (It is 1/4", right?). I've broken a few myself, and I used them broken for as long as I could. But eventually I learned that there are better quality stones available, and I got one, then another, then a kiln shelf.

The better-quality (thicker) stones are all still in great shape after many years. The reason I bought the second stone was to be able to have one in the oven and another in the grill (or two in the oven, rarely). Then I bought the kiln shelf (18" x 18" x 1") because I wanted something bigger than 15.75".

And actually I have two other stones, which came with a Mighty Pizza Oven. They're good, too, but one is only 13" and the other is intended to be used as a top stone in the MPO, an inch or two above the pizza. I have used the 13" stone more than a few times, but since a 15.75" stone works with the MPO, I almost always use one of those inside the MPO, instead of the 13" stone. The MPO can be a fun and useful tool, by the way; especially in the summer, when you don't want your oven to heat up the house.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2015, 09:59:12 AM »
The one on the upper rack, the bottom didn't get done well enough, and so it wasn't browned and crispy on the bottom, and I left it in an extra 3 minutes or so till the toppings were definitely done, but the bottom didn't brown right.

I assume you baked them both on the same stone, without a whole lot of time between them. I also assume the one that took longer to bake was the second one. If so, that's probably because the first pizza it took a lot of heat out of the stone, and the stone just did not have enough recovery time.

Now that I think about it, it seems that I remember seeing pictures of your stone earlier and thinking it may be the same as my two 15.75" stones. Is it Old Stone Oven or American Metalcraft? If your stone is made by one of those two companies, I'm very surprised it broke.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #84 on: March 02, 2015, 10:01:36 AM »
Also, I'm glad you didn't seem to have trouble peeling the soft/wet dough. I was worried that making such a big jump in hydration might cause some trouble for you, but it looks like you handled it very well.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #85 on: March 02, 2015, 11:30:52 AM »
I NEVER saw him leave the oven area when he had pizza's in.  Not even for a minute.  He'd have his cigarette hanging from his lip because he only took time to light it and never would put it down that I recall.

I just noticed the quote above as I went back through this thread from the beginning. Here's one thing I think you might want to consider: When they made this video, he was not on the clock. Rather, his only objective while they were filming was to help his guests make a video; while his staff did the work of running a pizzeria. That is, someone else is making the pizzas for customers, which can be seen in the video, while he's making a mere two pizzas for the video.

When you're actively providing labor in a place like that, you don't have time to go back to the office and chat with a zombie in front of the camera. However, when you're not actively providing labor--or when you're helping a zombie make a video--that is your only objective during the time that you're filming the video.

Also, they almost certainly filmed this footage in the middle of the day, between lunch rush and dinner rush, when business is at its slowest.

My point is that I think there's still every reason to believe he's baking at less than 500, and that these pizzas bake for 12 to 15 minutes, just like he said. I have seen zero evidence to suggest otherwise at this point, and all kinds of evidence to suggest that he in fact did bake for 12 to 15 minutes at less than 500°. I may eventually do a 180, but at this point, no.

Whenever I bake one pizza, which usually takes much less time than 12-15 minutes, I don't spend those 6-8 minutes making a bunch of pizzas that don't need to be made. Rather, I sit down and wait for my one pizza to finish baking, chat with my guest (if I have one), and maybe rotate the pizza a few times while it's baking.

The reason why I mention all this is because it seems people here are not looking at everything he does with an eye on what's practical. He is doing what's practical, both in the video and also when there is no video crew, which are two very different things.

I still don't know if they taped the cigarette discussion while the pizza was baking, and I never will know unless the zombie tells me. But the evidence suggests that this video is probably presented entirely in the order that they filmed everything. And if so, those pizzas baked for more than 10 minutes, and possibly 15 minutes.

If you want to successfully clone this pizza, you have to do things the same way he did things. You're doing great, but you seem to have some kind of aversion to doing what the evidence says should be done. Or I am just not seeing things how things really are, which is something I haven't ruled out yet. I may be wrong about everything I've said in this thread, but the evidence tells me I'm not.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #86 on: March 02, 2015, 12:23:27 PM »
Also, I'm glad you didn't seem to have trouble peeling the soft/wet dough. I was worried that making such a big jump in hydration might cause some trouble for you, but it looks like you handled it very well.

The stone on the upper rack is 13" and 1/2" thick

The stone on the lower rack is 15" and 3/8" thick

Neither stone has a brand marked on it, but IIRC I think the bigger one came from Bed, Bath and Beyond.  Both were bought locally at chain stores.  The 13" is never big enough, and that's why I bought the 15" when I saw it.  I thought it was 16" until just now when I measured it.

As for hydration, yes, the dough was difficult to manage, being very soft, but the cornmeal/semolina mixture on the peel and assembling very quickly with not too much sauce, and not a very wet sauce, seems to keep it from sticking pretty well.   One thing I noticed was that the dough hook was just barely able to pick up the dough on the 2nd kneading, and was able to hold it for 20 or 30 seconds, but then it drooped back down and about 1/3 of the dough stayed in the bottom of the mixer bowl as it went round and round.  Something I've noticed before is that I get a better dough if on the 2nd kneading its able to pick it up completely and tie it into knots as it goes around, so I do plan to reduce hydration a notch on the next try.

Actually, I'd be better off if I could get to a 1 1/2 lb dough ball, because that is optimal for 1 loaf of bread or 8 pitas, and now that I have pics of Vincent's 1 1/2 lb dough balls, it makes for an easy target to shoot at. 

Other than hydration, the only thing needing improvement in the dough is to get more rise/bigger bubbles from it when baking.  I am thinking that maybe making the smaller pies caused part of that because I also think my crust came out quite thin, ironically very much like a NY style :)

Ok, so my stone is in 3 pieces.  I can still slide them together and bake on them for now, but I'm wondering if I should just get a screen and avoid the cost, hassle and time of the 1 hr preheat for the stone.  I've noticed some others here baking on screens, and it worked pretty well in that electric oven at that party once I adjusted the time and temperature, so maybe given that I need to get something anyway, maybe I should buy a screen sized big enough to make up to a 1 1/2 lb dough ball pizza?  I'm guessing based on Vincent's largest being 19", that his old style 1 1/2 lb pizza was the 19" one.  Ok, nevermind.  I don't have confidence trying to make something that big.  But maybe what I *CAN* do is use the 19" size and 24 oz weight to figure out how much dough I should use to make a 15" or 16" or even 17" and get a pizza and rim about that same thickness?  We know that Vincent made no overt attempt to make his rim thick or thin, so it stands to reason that I can do the same.  Actually, I think I was getting close to that with my previous 1 lb pizzas.

I need to investigate the screen.  It worked at that pizza party.

As for the 12 to 15 min, I'm sorry, I don't believe that.  I stood there and watched many times as a kid.  Editors do whatever they want.  They make you feel like that discussion went on while the pizza baked, but there is no evidence to that effect.  At Ardmore Blvd, he never left the room with the ovens.  They were 8 or 10 feet behind the little order/delivery window he would take your order at.  And beside that was all counter with glass or plastic above that you could watch him work thru.  He was a one man assembly line, LOL, lots of fun to watch.  And BTW, I never saw him use the other ovens.  Just the one up top.  Maybe the other ovens were at a different temperature to bake things that had to cook slower?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 12:30:13 PM by BobC »

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2015, 12:38:04 PM »
Can anyone point me to a thread where they use a one day start to finish process for big rising pies?  I'm looking for hydration, yeast and sugar percentages, and procedural sequences and times.   

We don't really know for sure how Vincent did it other than that the dough was out in the warm room, but if I could look at other peoples percentages and procedures, and the results they got, maybe I can get close enough for mine.

I really would rather be able to make it that day and not have to make the dough days in advance if I could still get a good crust with good flavor and my bubbles and springiness.

One thing that sticks in my mind is that Vincent's dough must be VERY active if he's beating on it like that and it STILL rises that much in the oven and has all those big bubbles...

Maybe I found it...  Emergency dough?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 12:51:06 PM by BobC »

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #88 on: March 02, 2015, 12:56:02 PM »


One thing that sticks in my mind is that Vincent's dough must be VERY active if he's beating on it like that and it STILL rises that much in the oven and has all those big bubbles...

Maybe I found it...  Emergency dough?

Yes, one of the Emergency Dough recipes. Although he beats that dough, it does not look like he is beating down the edge, he looks to just be beating in the center.

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #89 on: March 02, 2015, 01:54:29 PM »
Yup, I looked at Pete's version of Tom's NY style emergency dough, and the yeast level is higher, similar to what I was using before. 

I think I'll just cut the hydration by 1% to 67%, go back to my original yeast level, leave sugar, oil and salt alone, do my same sequence of sponge, 30 min rest, knead 5, rest 10, knead 5, and then go to a bulk rise in the oven, and make a couple 1 lb dough balls out of it 90 min before baking, put them back in the oven, covered, to rise with the light on until its time to preheat, and see if I get better results.

For now, I'll just use the 3 piece stone, same temperature and preheat as before, and maybe order a 17 or 18" screen.

I'll go from there based on what the results of that are.  My guess is it will be close, and just might take adjustments with yeast level and rise conditions and times.

PS: The pitas made from the dough with the malt and molasses are excellent, better than the ones we buy.  Better flavor and texture, LOL. 

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #90 on: March 02, 2015, 03:12:15 PM »
Now that you have revealed that you have two stones in the oven, I feel pretty confident saying that's why you had trouble with the pizza you baked on the higher rack. When you originally revealed that you baked on the higher rack, I thought you meant you had one stone, which you moved from a lower rack to a higher rack; which would likely make the stone temperature a little lower because it's farther from the direct heat at the bottom of the oven.

Don't use a screen. Vincent didn't use a screen, so you shouldn't use a screen, either. Besides, using a screen creates a much different baking environment and thus creates much different results than baking directly on stone. Unless you're trying to make Domino's or Papa John's, screens are best used as cooling racks, or not at all. I'd say your best choice in this department would be to get a quality stone. And since you're in Chicago, I assume you have access to restaurant supply stores. If so, there's a good chance one or more of these places might stock good quality stones. If so, get one.

Or you might want to consider looking for a kiln shelf. Kiln shelves end up costing quite a bit if you have them shipped, but if you can find one locally, it should be priced very nicely. Kiln shelves are made of the same material as baking stones.

I'm not clear whether you did a bulk ferment with your last dough. Based on some things you've shared, I'm under the impression you did not do a bulk ferment; first of all because the pics of your dough balls didn't appear to have been bulk fermented. I'm pretty sure Vincent did a bulk ferment, which means I think you should do a bulk ferment. Also, you mentioned that the one thing you feel is really missing from your pizzas is more rise and bigger bubbles. I feel like a bulk ferment, followed by dividing into round dough balls, will give you a lot more volume than you may currently be getting in the rim.

Regarding bake time: It amazes me that you remember how long it took for a pizza to bake decades ago, because I don't. Every single bit of evidence I've seen here suggests 12-15 minute bake time.

Regarding video editing: There was very little editing done with that video. It was done quickly, in an effort to document a small part of life, without requiring much work. It was not done with the intention of showing it on Food Network.

Yes, there most certainly is evidence that their discussion happened while the pizza was baking. The evidence is in the fact that he said very clearly that it takes 12-15 minutes for the pizzas to bake. The evidence is in all the pictures of pizzas that look like they required 12-15 minutes to bake. The evidence is in the audible crunch that both you and I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread. The evidence is in the fact that there are no fewer than three ovens in the kitchen. The evidence is in the fact that, right after they put the pizzas in the oven, they chit-chatted about stupid stuff that had nothing to do with the rest of the video. Why else would they have done that except to pass time while the pizzas are baking? Also, people who pay for retail space to store ovens they don't need go out of business in their first year. Because paying for retail space that is used for nothing is expensive, and all that expense is money that would be your salary if you we're not giving away money by paying every month for retail space that you do not use. His business has been open for several decades.

Same-day dough might generally be called emergency dough here on these boards, but it's not emergency dough in this context. Rather, it's just a dough that's managed in a way to make it usable throughout the day, the same day it's made. To me, "emergency dough" is a term used to describe dough that will make one or two pizzas in two or three hours from now; not hundreds of pizzas throughout the day.

I'm kind of thinking I might give this style a try sometime in the next few days. And if I do, here are some details of how I might do it:

100% Bread flour (Full Strength)
60% Water
0.5% IDY
2% Salt
7% Oil
1% Molasses (if I have it)

Note: I chose 60% hydration instead of about 65% hydration because I also have 7% oil instead of 1-2% oil.

Mix dough (for 15 minutes?). (I'd probably make a 24 oz batch and use at least 22 oz for my dough ball. By making a 24 oz batch of dough, it will be a pretty functional amount of dough for my mixer to handle.)

Bulk ferment at room temperature for two hours.

Divide, scale, and round dough ball(s).

Within an hour of processing the dough ball(s), start preheating oven at 475°.

When the oven has been on for at least an hour, if the dough looks ready, stretch, top, and bake the pizza for around 12 to 15 minutes.

OK, I have a question. Who can tell me where to find molasses in a grocery store? Baking aisle?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2015, 03:20:14 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26472.20

I guess this thread is turning into a Vincent's Pizza Park thread.  Maybe Vincent's should be added to the title.

Anyway, after given this some thought, and looking at the endless pics of Vincent’s pies on google, and the few additional videos I found on youtube, I think the edge, crust, cornice, etc. gets so much rise because there are:

 -- EGGS --

in the dough.  There is an old school video on youtube, contained in the thread linked above, where "Bruno" makes a NY pie with eggs.  Apparently, Bruno is in the minority when it comes to using eggs.  But I understand Vincent brought NY pizza to Pittsburgh.  If that is the case, I have so far been unable to determine why or when Vincent deviated from a traditional NY pie recipe into what is served at Vincent’s. 

I think there is a lot of egg in the Vincent dough, and that is what gives the edge the large rise but still retain a dense crumb.  I saw some more pics on google, and the edge crumb is on the dense side.  That is why I think the rise is not coming from yeast alone.  Bagels have a dense crumb, but have a much lower hydration, and from the looks of the dough, it is not a low hydration dough.  So in order to get a dense crumb and have a higher hydration dough, my conclusion is EGGS (or at least the EGG WHITES). 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 03:25:36 PM by PrimeRib »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2015, 03:24:55 PM »
Thanks for reminding me about eggs. I think I mentioned eggs earlier in the thread, but I totally forgot about that. (Yes, I did say something; I said eggs or egg whites.) I'll have to work that into the formula I just shared. And even if you didn't know I said it, or if my memory of saying it is not real, it's good to have someone else saying that because it provides some redundance of thought.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2015, 03:27:31 PM »
Thanks for reminding me about eggs. I think I mentioned eggs earlier in the thread, but I totally forgot about that. (Yes, I did say something; I said eggs or egg whites.) I'll have to work that into the formula I just shared. And even if you didn't know I said it, or if my memory of saying it is not real, it's good to have someone else saying that because it provides some redundance of thought.

You are correct.  I did not see your previous mention of eggs, but it is there. 

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2015, 03:31:20 PM »
But I understand Vincent brought NY pizza to Pittsburgh.

Vincent didn't do New York style pizza, which is why this thread was moved from the New York style section to where it is now. People need to understand that this is not New York style pizza, or even really close to New York style pizza.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2015, 03:34:52 PM »
I guess this thread is turning into a Vincent's Pizza Park thread.  Maybe Vincent's should be added to the title.
PrimeRib,

Good idea. You will now see that the topic heading has been changed. It took me several steps to do it but I am open to a better topic heading if desired.

Peter

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2015, 04:13:57 PM »
I'm generally trying to make a pizza like the ones Vincent himself makes in the video on page 1 of this thread.  It looks very similar to the one in the black and white photo of Vincent in the 1960's, and the ones I watched him make as a kid.  It didn't have the 3 inch wide crust of the newer "Vinnie Pie".  I am not trying to duplicate the newer Vinnie Pie, as I've never tried one to know if I'd like it or not.

I got very close to the right crust last friday at that pizza party, but wasn't baking on my stone or in my oven, so it took a couple pizzas to figure out the right combo of time and temperature on the screen in an electric oven.  But I was getting bubbles, and they had the right taste, and the spring, and the crust had good crunch underneath and up top.

Ok, but I wish I could get better bubbles...

I think reasons why not are:

Vincent maybe made the dough in the morning for that evening
We think his dough was left to rise in bulk, then made into what he called patties that sat there in the hot room
If I was to guess, I think they sat covered in the hot room till they got used, and if leftover maybe went to the cooler overnight and back out the next day, so my guess is its not important the final rise other than it needs some time, like maybe 1 or 2 hrs initially, and if he needed to beat iit down more because it had gone longer, he did.

He would bang it down, we think in the middle before the toss, but not at the edges explaining why it was thin in the middle but thick and bubbly around the edges.

Ryan is welcome to try his 12 to 15 min lower temp thing, but I really don't think that's correct

I think they could well be using egg whites in those new "Vinnie Pies", but I don't think there were any in there to make something close to the older style Vincent's Pizza I think I had the flavor and texture correct the other night, and just need to get the moisture level right, and the rising procedure correct and patty making and pie making right.  If I continue to fail to get the bubbles right, I think I will give whipped egg white or whipped egg white and yolk in a try, but if I do, it will be a small qty, because I never noticed the taste of it in Vincent's pizza.
 
My next attempt will be:
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    262.26 g  |  9.25 oz | 0.58 lbs
Water (67%):    175.72 g  |  6.2 oz | 0.39 lbs
Salt (2.11%):    5.53 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
ADY (1.08%):    2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Oil (2.6%):    6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.52 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Sugar (1.895%):    4.97 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Total (174.685%):   458.14 g | 16.16 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = N/A

3/8 tsp of the sugar will be molasses - its next to the pancake syrup, ryan :)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 05:53:19 PM by BobC »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2015, 06:31:19 PM »
OK, I have a question. Who can tell me where to find molasses in a grocery store? Baking aisle?

Baking aisle, near the pancake syrup, in case this becomes relevant to anyone else.

EDIT: I just saw your answer, about one or two seconds after I published this post. Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 06:35:07 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #98 on: March 03, 2015, 10:09:50 AM »
I just made a batch of dough that I think might be in the neighborhood for this style.

100% Full Strength flour (bread flour)
55% Cold tap water
0.5% IDY
2% Salt
5% Oil
11% Egg
1% Molasses

First I have to say that I kind of screwed up. I mixed for the full 15 minutes, then realized I forgot to add the oil. So I added the oil and tried to mix for about another five minutes, but the dough didn't fully absorb the oil. I think it'll still work out pretty well, but I'm still disappointed that I screwed up.

Right now the dough is sitting in the mixing bowl bulk fermenting, which I plan to do for about two hours. Hopefully it will absorb more of the oil while it bulk ferments. Depending on how the dough appears after the two-hour bulk ferment, I will either allow it to bulk ferment a little longer or divide into dough balls.

I actually meant to do 9% egg, but my egg ended up weighing about 9 g more than I expected, which turned out to be about 11%. I'm OK with that.

As expected, the dough is slightly softer and much smoother than how my New York style dough turns out.

The old Ryan probably would have made another batch of dough after realizing he made a mistake, but this Ryan didn't. Part of that is because although I'm certain I'll have a 50 pound bag of Full Strength flour Thursday, right now I only have a couple pounds, which I don't want to exhaust, in case there's any kind of problem Thursday.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #99 on: March 03, 2015, 10:57:34 AM »
Boy, that seems like a LOT of both oil and egg to me, but who knows, let us know how it turns out...

BTW, did you ever eat Vincent's original pizza to have any memories to go on of the taste or texture?  If you didn't, I can tell you that I don't remember Vincent's any yellowness or egg flavor to Vincent's old crust at all, myself, and like I said, we ALWAYS ate all our crusts.   Crunchy underneath and on the outside, softer, but a bit chewy inside with lots of bubbles 1/2" to 3/4", and some 3/4" to 1 1/2" and maybe 2 or 3 big ones per pie, usually out on the rim area.  If the bubble was big and had no sauce or cheese on it, it didn't have that much flavor and would be more likely to be overdone because it was so thin, but it there was sauce or cheese on it, you were in luck, as they would caramelize on it and you'd get a burst of flavor because there was almost no crust there with the bubble being so thin.  And when you'd bite off 1/2 a bubble, it would squish down to bite off, and then after a few seconds it would typically spring back open.  The taste was slightly salty with the taste of browned dough crust, and maybe just a tiny bit of sweetness that seems to be the residue of the molasses. 

Vincent didn't intentionally make those flavored bubbles, but *I* can, LOL.

I do admit maybe a small amount of egg white could go unnoticed taste wise and could therefore possibly be there.

Could you have a dough out at room temperature with egg white in it ok?

Anyway, good luck with it. 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 11:02:52 AM by BobC »

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