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Author Topic: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza  (Read 102383 times)

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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2015, 01:13:26 PM »
Ok, I used up all the dough I had making pitas, so now a new batch.  I'm going to make smaller pizzas with only 8 oz of dough each till I get it all perfect, then will go back to my 16 oz dough balls.

Made a batch of dough with the following formula
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    520.27 g  |  18.35 oz | 1.15 lbs
Water (68%):    353.78 g  |  12.48 oz | 0.78 lbs
Salt (2.15%):    11.19 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
ADY (1.455%):    7.57 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Oil (2.595%):    13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
Sugar (1.915%):    9.96 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.5 tsp | 0.83 tbsp
Total (176.115%):   916.27 g | 32.32 oz | 2.02 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   229.07 g | 8.08 oz | 0.51 lbs

I am making it the same as before with a no salt batter sitting for 30 min for the yeast to get going, and then add the salt and rest of the flour, knead 5, rest 10, knead 5, make dough balls, then let them sit covered in a warm place for 5 hrs, no refrigeration.  I have sauce and cheese, etc leftover from friday night, so all things will be equal otherwise, except that I'll be baking at home on my stone in a more familiar oven, so I should be able to get the crusts done just right.

PS: my "sugar" is 1 tsp granulated, 3/4 tsp dark molasses, and 3/8 tsp of granulated onion, ie no malt, and 1 1/2 times as much molasses percentage than before, but the same amount of sugar overall in hopes the sweetness should remain about the same, because I liked it, LOL

PSS: after 1st 5 min of kneading it definitely looks to be about as wet as I'd want to go, with about 30% of the dough in the bottom of the bowl and the rest up on the hook.  Resting now and will knead again, and then make dough balls.  I'll be looking for Vincent's "patty" shape and super soft texture.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:40:29 PM by BobC »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2015, 01:36:58 PM »
Bob, I sense that you have experienced a little frustration because maybe the rest of us are unable to see that the pizza you remember from this place was at least a little different from the pizza we see in the more recent pictures. If you ever feel like you have to repeat things to clear up your stance, please do. Like the pool of liquid that you say you don't remember on these pizzas but that we see in many of the pictures. I think you've said more than once that this is not the pizza you remember, and it may have gone straight through me. But the fact that you have said it more than once increases the likelihood that I will (or did) catch on.

Here are some other things I thought about as I took a long, hot bath:

First of all, this is not New York style. I don't have any issues with this thread staying in the New York style section, because it's similar in a lot of ways and I don't know what other section may be more appropriate. But it most definitely is not New York style. And if scott123 was here to chime in, I promise you he would have. He would've made sure everyone is aware that this is not New York style. Not in an effort to be obstinate, but in a genuine effort to help people understand what so many people seem to refuse to understand about New York style pizza.

And while I'm thinking about it, as I believe I am the only person to have ever been banned and eventually re-allowed on this web site, it blows my mind that Scott was banned. I realize I don't know what happened for him to be banned, but I do know Scott was a huge asset on these boards, and I suspect that his ban has much more to do with his unorthodox communication style than it has to do with him deserving to be banned. Scott will be back someday. And when he returns, I only hope we get the same Scott that was here before.

In one of the other threads about this place, someone (scott r, I think) suggested that this dough is bulk fermented, using bromated high gluten flour, then divided, scaled, and rounded throughout the day into dough balls not long before the dough balls are to be used. I buy that, for at least a few reasons.

And here's something I noticed in the video that I think a lot of people may overlook: Vincent does not make a conscious effort to form a rim around the outside of the crust. Rather, he just doesn't stretch the part of the skin that forms the rim.

I can't think of the other things I may have wanted to say here. Maybe I should take another bath.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:39:04 PM by Aimless Ryan »
Ryan
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Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2015, 01:45:08 PM »
I agree with Ryan that this thread doesn't belong on the NY style board. So I will move it for now to the General Pizza Making board.

Peter

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2015, 01:51:17 PM »
That's right, Ryan.  I'm NOT trying to make a newer style, gigundo crust monster pie with a swimming pool in the middle.  I want to make an "old vincent's style", thin in the middle like NYC, but with a thicker rim, a nice big crust around it, but not obscene, and a goodly amount of toppings, but not so much as to make a mess, LOL

Vincent in the video makes exactly the kind of pie I'm shooting for.  The first might be a tad overdone for my taste, but I think the 2nd came out in a little less time and might have been just right, except the anchovies, LOL.

In the picture, I know its black and white, from the early 60's, he looks like when I first went in there, and look at that pie!  That's what I'm shooting for, in living color, LOL, not burnt, no puddles, PERFECT PIZZA in my mind, the kind of slices I would have fought for and turned the pizza my way to get at the kitchen table as a kid...

And yes, you are correct.  I NEVER saw Vincent TRY to make a wide, thick, rim on his crust.  He'd get or cut a piece of dough from below, toss it up into flour on the counter,  bangity bangity bang bang into shape, toss some flour onto the peel, toss up the pie, spin it once, maybe twice, bring it down, and land it on the peel, dip for the sauce, round and round he'd go, and then grab big hands full of cheese from a big metal bowl, scatter it on, and do the same with mushrooms or pepperoni.  With sausage, he'd grab a handful, and use the other hand to quickly pluck off little hunks and scatter them onto the pie as he went, really fast.  A quick shake, and over to the oven.  And that was it.  The cigarette never moved till the pizza was in the oven, LOL

Sure, If my NYC buddy saw this listed under NY pizza he'd read me the riot act about the crust, even for Vincent's pizzas that *I* remember, saying "That's NOT New York pizza, Bob!, Lemme take you there and SHOW you!"

But I read it had an NY style dough, and that's why I posted it where I did.  Its odd that I didn't find that 2014 post about Vincent's when I was looking and found this site way back, but maybe it was before then, because at one point I hunted ALL over, and that's where I came up with the NY style dough with molasses in it...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 02:31:28 PM by BobC »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2015, 01:59:22 PM »
PSS: after 1st 5 min of kneading it definitely looks to be about as wet as I'd want to go, with about 30% of the dough in the bottom of the bowl and the rest up on the hook.  Resting now and will knead again, and then make dough balls.  I'll be looking for Vincent's "patty" shape and super soft texture.

When you mentioned increasing the hydration earlier, I was worried that you may end up going a little too far. I'm pretty sure your decision to do that had at least something to do with my suggestion that changes should be dramatic sometimes, but I don't think I really meant for you to go above 65% hydration. Especially because I suspect there may be more oil and/or other non-water liquids in this dough than is typical of New York style dough.

In other words, a lot of the pictures I've seen make me think this dough is much richer than a typical New York style dough. I just don't know what specific ingredient(s) may make it rich, other than oil.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2015, 02:43:34 PM »
These are 68% hydration, not including the oil.  I stayed with the same percentage of olive oil as before because I liked the taste and crunchiness and springiness, so no good reason to change.  I posted what I used above.  I had to flour the board well and just keep my hands floured to keep things from sticking.  The dough is quite soft, and I put them in covered and oiled plastic containers in the oven with the light on for the day.  Note that they are a tad darker color than normal, mimicking the pics of dough from Vincent's pics.  I added just a sprinkle more salt after, and I tasted the dough again after the 2nd kneading and it tasted real good to me.


Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2015, 03:31:52 PM »
@BobC    Did you do any room temp bulk ferment before balling?  I did a screen grab from the 2014 video and those balls appear very smooth. I can only get balls that smooth if I first let the dough bulk ferment at room temp for 60 minutes.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 03:43:10 PM by PrimeRib »

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2015, 03:43:48 PM »
I was afraid to.  I'm in the midwest, and its 65 degrees in the house, and I wanted 85 or 90, so I just made the "patties" and put them in bowls.  Vincent used to make a LOT of pizzas.  He would make them as fast as people would come in and order them.  And that place was HOT.  He always had his shirt most of the way open because he'd get so hot.  So I figure that's the kind of environment.  He probably made dough in the morning and would make it into balls in his spare time, and if he didn't have time, he'd just cut off hunks is my guess.

I'm trying to see if I can learn to toss them, so I made them 8 oz, and uniform to make it as easy on myself as possible.  If I can learn to do it, cool, and if not, I can do it pretty well already, knuckles to knuckles....

I peeked in on them and they are rising nicely.  I'm just going to go straight from the containers to the board and make pizzas.  If you recall, I did a 30 min rise already as a sponge, and then kneaded it.  Anyway, I think it will be ok, and if not, next batch I'll try the bulk rise for an hour or 2, then make dough balls.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 03:45:37 PM by BobC »

Offline PrimeRib

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2015, 04:01:11 PM »

I'm trying to see if I can learn to toss them, so I made them 8 oz


I am wondering if it will be more difficult to toss a small 8 ounce ball. It seems that it would be easier to toss what looks like a hugh 20-24 ounce hunk like as shown in the videos.

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2015, 04:04:57 PM »
He probably made dough in the morning and would make it into balls in his spare time, and if he didn't have time, he'd just cut off hunks is my guess.

Nooooooo! Consistent dough management is very important in a commercial environment. You have to be able to control as many variables as possible, and your pizzeria must work like a well-oiled machine. If it doesn't, you go out of business. Because you don't just make money by being in business; you make money by doing smart business. McDonald's doesn't just grab a pile of beef and smash it on a griddle. (In fact, I'm not sure McDonald's even uses beef anymore.) Anyway, Vincent didn't go out of business, and part of it is because he had a very detailed plan for how to operate the pizzeria every day. And in terms of dough management, that plan was probably to divide, scale, and round dough balls every day about about 9:00 and 3:00.

Cutting off hunks of dough just won't allow you to end up with a consistent product. It's also a symptom of not knowing how to operate a business.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2015, 04:07:01 PM »
I am wondering if it will be more difficult to toss a small 8 ounce ball. It seems that it would be easier to toss what looks like a hugh 20-24 ounce hunk like as shown in the videos.

 ^^^

Yeah, trying to stretch an 8 oz dough ball into something that resembles his pizza will not be easy.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2015, 04:20:50 PM »
People SAW Vincent cutting off hunks of dough to make pies.  I am guessing that just happened if he got too busy to do it ahead.   I *AM* doing it consistent with how I've been doing it, but like I said, if I don't get the desired result, I will change what I'm doing.

I was thinking about it, and I could take the mixer bowl, cover it with a plate, and put it into a warm oven with the heat off and light on timed for an hour, then make dough balls from it, put them into a covered container, and back into the warm oven with light on until I need to turn it on to preheat the stone.

And yes, if the 8 oz ball is more difficult, then next time I'll try 12 oz, maybe.   16 oz was difficult to get to spin on the toss, and I'm just trying to see if I can learn.

PS: From the sounds of what primerib says, I guess I'm going to need to change it.  If I leave it in the mixing bowl or use the same tub to let dough balls rise, its no more time, work or cleanup at all.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 04:25:07 PM by BobC »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2015, 04:32:38 PM »
Hey Bob, I think you said earlier that you have a 50 pound bag of flour, but I don't think you said what brand it is. Am I correct, or am I just way off the mark? If I'm correct, would you mind telling us what brand it is?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2015, 04:36:56 PM »
People SAW Vincent cutting off hunks of dough to make pies. 

In the video I  saw, I didn't "SEE" Vincent cutting off hunks of dough. I couldn't see what was happening below the counter. I think it's more likely that what we saw was him cutting apart dough balls that had grown together.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 04:41:47 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2015, 04:47:44 PM »
@BobC    Did you do any room temp bulk ferment before balling?  I did a screen grab from the 2014 video and those balls appear very smooth. I can only get balls that smooth if I first let the dough bulk ferment at room temp for 60 minutes.

I have also noticed how smooth the crusts look, and I've been meaning to say something about it for a while, but I guess I kept forgetting. My first thought is that the smoothness may result from a long mix time, but it's been so long since I have mixed any kind of pizza dough for more than about seven minutes that I'm just not sure how much of a role mix time plays. Another thought is that maybe the smoothness is a result of a pretty high fat percentage. Does that make sense to anyone, or am I looking in the wrong direction?
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2015, 04:48:37 PM »
In the video I  saw, I didn't "SEE" Vincent cutting off hunks of dough. I couldn't see what was happening below the counter. I think it's more likely that what we saw was him cutting apart dough balls that had grown together.

That's what I thought, too.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2015, 05:05:02 PM »
craig,

No, I'd seen him do it too, but not normally.  He had a container of some sort right there, but I do recall seeing him cutting off a hunk sometimes over on the counter to the right.  He had 3 sizes, and maybe if he'd run out of one size he'd cut off hunks to make those till he had time to get to it?  I never saw the container below in front of him to see what it contained.  Maybe he had like a rope of dough in the container if he ran out of dough balls?

Ryan,
Yes, I did say I bought a 50 lb bag of Primo Gusto Bread/Crust Flour 4 gm protein per 30 gm serving.  Its not the super duper "hi-Gluten", but it was the high protein, hard, spring wheat, and wasn't tremendously expensive.  It definitely makes a better crust than the all purpose flour I was using before, and not being rich, I didn't want to spend double for the "hi gluten" which was also 4 gm protein

BTW, in the meantime, I checked and the dough balls were getting too big, so I punched them down gently.  Next time maybe making the balls after the bulk rise will take care of that.  If not, I need to use less sugar or less yeast if I'm going to use a warm rise.

PS: I've also ordered a big dough scraper, and will put my dough, and then patties into a tupperware box that can be stored in the fridge if I don't use all the dough that day, and that will solve the problem of the dough being in smaller containers messing up the outside of the dough ball
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 05:22:35 PM by BobC »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2015, 05:49:47 PM »
No, I'd seen him do it too, but not normally.  He had a container of some sort right there, but I do recall seeing him cutting off a hunk sometimes over on the counter to the right.  He had 3 sizes, and maybe if he'd run out of one size he'd cut off hunks to make those till he had time to get to it?  I never saw the container below in front of him to see what it contained.  Maybe he had like a rope of dough in the container if he ran out of dough balls?

Why would he have ready but un-balled dough sitting around? Why would it not be balled with the rest?
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Offline BobC

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2015, 06:30:03 PM »
In the early days I think he was doing everything himself, and we would come in after tennis, maybe mid afternoon.

He was ALWAYS happy to make pizza and enjoyed putting on a show for us kids to watch, would be my guess.

Even my Dad, as tight as he was, was a sucker for 5 kids and a wife wanting pizza that he loved, too :)

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: My first bread/crust flour pizzas--Vincent's Pizza
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2015, 07:23:46 PM »
He was ALWAYS happy to make pizza and enjoyed putting on a show for us kids to watch, would be my guess.

Well, y'know, it was his livelihood. Kinda makes sense.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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